Logos 4 should still be in Beta

I upgraded to v. 4 as soon as I heard about it. I should have waited at least a year. The best thing about v.4 is that it doesn't cripple v.3. L4 is not for the working man. Simple things are difficult. It is not intuitive. It is a resource hog. I actually have it running on a laptop that I don't need just so that it can index and update to its heart's content and not impede the rest of my computer life. Postponing four hours is no help when the workday is longer than four hours. The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold. I can't blame the company for wanting a slick looking product, that is what will sell. However, it comes up short in so many ways that were well covered in v.3.

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Doug

These were pretty much my sentiments when I first made the swith too. In fact, I've seen that quite a bit around here. However, most people change their attitude after using the product for about two weeks. It takes a little while to get acclimated to L4. I can guarantee you than it is not in any way inferior to L3. In fact, I now find it to be much more powerful and easier to use at the same time. You do need a good computer to run it on. Logos makes no apologies for that. Bob says they are designing this program with the future in mind and that in a couple of years, we'll all be glad that he did. In my opinion, all the size of the downloads proves is that they are working on making things better. The resources already work just fine but they are fixing typos and sprucing things up a bit. Again, I can relate to how you feel right now. But watch the videos and actually use the product for a little while. Then, you'll be better qualified to compare L4 to L3. Remember, you've used L3 for years and it's second nature to you now. You have to use L4 for a little while for it to have that same advantage.

Michael Birney

There are some people who, like you, have decided that L4 is just not for them now, but are looking forward to the future to use it, but there are a lot of people who love it, and think it is a giant improvement over L3.

I'd suggest you read over the forum and look at what some others have to say, and then watch the video's and then make your judgement.

For me, I have the exact opposite reaction as you, I think L4 is a giant improvement, and find L3 very lacking now.

Mike Waugh

I upgraded to v. 4 as soon as I heard about it. I should have waited at least a year. The best thing about v.4 is that it doesn't cripple v.3. L4 is not for the working man. Simple things are difficult. It is not intuitive. It is a resource hog. I actually have it running on a laptop that I don't need just so that it can index and update to its heart's content and not impede the rest of my computer life. Postponing four hours is no help when the workday is longer than four hours. The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold. I can't blame the company for wanting a slick looking product, that is what will sell. However, it comes up short in so many ways that were well covered in v.3.

I've owned L4 for about 4 weeks now. During the first week I would have agreed with your post 100%. In fact, after my initial "wow this is different" moment, I continued to use L3 for my "real" research/study/prep and would only fool around with L4 when I had time. Over the next several weeks I began to use L4 more and more. Admittedly, there's been a couple of upgrades in that short time that have made using L4 a nicer experience for me. Now I'm using L4 full-time and am getting more familiar with it each day. In fact, just yesterday I switched to L3 for a bit just to see how I still felt about it and I found myself thinking in terms of L4 and getting frustrated with L3. One more thing... aside from my initial download, I haven't had an upgrade and indexing last longer that 45 minutes.

The best part? I got the early discount and it's only going to get better from here.

Mark Smith

The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold.

Is this as a measure of the product's shortcoming or of the diligence of Logos to fix issues as soon as possible? Have you seen how many updates Microsoft pushes out? I have them coming very week.

I agree you need some computer power to run Logos 4 efficiently. I have recommended against upgrading to some friends for this reason.

I do think that there are a few things that are less intuitive than in 3.0, but many things are as intuitive or more so. The fact is it takes a mind-set change and unlearning some 3.0 approaches to adjust to 4.0. It is not the same program.

There are features missing in 3.0 that we had in 4.0. Yet there are definitely features we didn't have in 3.0. So is the cup half full or half empty? Perhaps Logos should have waited another year to get all the features in place. Perhaps they over-marketed 4.0 as a replacement for 3.0 when they knew there were many features still missing. I think you could score some points on them about that issue. Yet 4.0 is a powerful program and you get it for free. What's not to like about that?

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77184#Comment_77184

If I compare version 3 or even version 2 and what I remember about users experiences when they downloaded an upgrade to the program or resources, there were not so many reports or problems such as "what did I just download?" or "I cannot index because I get an error message"or "crashes...". I hope I don't have to list the assortment of buggy or unexpected behavior of L4. Some people report losing their prioritizations or even collections.

All of that taken together even in view of all the "new" in L4 that people love, still causes me concern everytime there is a new release or update. I hope it works but I have only partial assurance that my system will not incur a problem. Granted, Logos staff are great to work with, but, I do not want to have problems for them to deal with. I just wait days or weeks after a release before I update. So, I feel on the defensive and am uncomfortable whenever there is a change.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77382#Comment_77382

I just wait days or weeks after a release before I update. So, I feel on the defensive and am uncomfortable whenever there is a change.

Joan, that isn't a bad thing, and it isn't a sign of a product being in beta. It is just good sense. I administer hundreds of servers and I NEVER install a Microsoft update until I have either tested it on a non-production machine, or watch while other companies tested it for me on their production systems. Yet, nothing I run could be considered close to being a Beta. Stay with the stable releases, wait a week or so and see what happens when other more adventurous users load the updates, then update your machine. It is a little harder to do with the L4 update set up, but it by no means impossible, or even that hard.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77383#Comment_77383

Yes, Terry, thank you for your response. But, my comparison is with my experiences with earlier versions of Logos software and new experiences with L4. There were not all the problems. I don't have to say it is "beta" but it doesn't measure up with the quality of excellence I had grown to expect with Logos Bible software.

Jose Ortega

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77399#Comment_77399

I agree with the complaint. For example, how can you release a research program like L4 without a robust export and print feature?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77507#Comment_77507

I agree with the complaint. For example, how can you release a research program like L4 without a robust export and print feature?

Jose,

you do it if your research shows that most users don't use those features.

It's not an oversight...but a strategic decision on Logos' part.

I agree...printing useful for me, but there are many people on this forum who've NEVER printed from Logos...!

So, what you deem a "must have" feature, someone else thinks that it's a throwaway and their favorite feature is a "must have"

Logos is a good company committed to doing right by their users...have patience. [:D]

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77514#Comment_77514

I agree...printing useful for me, but there are many people on this forum who've NEVER printed from Logos...!

I have to admit, the the 12 years I have used Logos, I have never once printed from it.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77535#Comment_77535

]I have to admit, the the 12 years I have used Logos, I have never once printed from it.

I can't remember the last time I printed anything from Logos. I copy and paste a lot, however.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77538#Comment_77538

with the improved notes though and clippings, I admit that I would now print from Logos and do less cutting and pasting into a word processor.

Jose Ortega

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77538#Comment_77538

Printing is useful when the output source is a document manager such as One Note or such. Right now my searches are kept deep in the belly of this plotting Leviathan. Why would you code a research instrument without printing? I return to my annoying question. There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

Now having said that, I do agree that there is much to like about L4 and it does grow on you with time. Yes, no doubt, patience will be rewarded with further lumbering updates. Hmm. Let's do a word study on "patience" But, If I could only print it to my Windows Journal. . . ah, never mind!

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77547#Comment_77547

Why would you code a research instrument without printing? I return to my annoying question. There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

With Bob P's comments about "constant beta" on Twitter, I think it was shortly after the release, it is a wonder that anyone would defend the statement "Logos 4 is not a beta program". It is. They may not call it that, but it essentially is. It is now more stable and feature complete than the initial release. It is good enough to use every day for mission critical tasks. But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

That said, I used GMail as a beta for years. I use many beta programs for day to day tasks. I used Windows 7 in beta for nearly a year. Beta doesn't mean horrible. It just means not fully complete and in need of users testing it.

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77547#Comment_77547

There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

Close...try ETS & SBL meetings in November -- the biggest week for Biblical studies publishing of the year.

Printing is useful when the output source is a document manager such as One Note or such.

Copy/Paste?

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77567#Comment_77567

But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

Kevin, I don't want to start an argument over this, but suppose there was no 'missing features' listing? Would it now be considered 'complete' and therefore no longer a beta? According to your argument it seems so. So what Logos did wrong was to announce that it would add anything later. They should have kept it a secret and released new features as they chose.

I don't think I can agree with your definition of what a beta is. To me a beta is a developmental version of a product that you want to release. What is going to be released is up to the publisher. Once the product with the features the publisher wants is stable and seems to work on most of the platforms they've been able to test it on, it is released and is no longer a beta. Along the way in beta testing new features are often added and tested, but at some point the publisher has an idea of what he wants in the release version and when it gets there that's it.

While I disagree with you on your definition and the 'proof' found in a list of features Logos would like to add, I do agree that this version of Logos has not been as bug-free as 3.0 was. Frankly I recall some bugs in 2.0 but its been too long to be very specific. Perhaps there was too much of a rush to release this product. Perhaps the beta testing group was not large enough to eliminate more problems before the release, but we really have to go back to 2.0 (Series X) to make a just comparison between version upgrades. 3.0 was not a total re-work. 2.0 was and 4.0 is. Of course there will be more problems in this kind of release.

If people are disillusioned with the quality of this release, I know Logos would be glad to refund them their money. Harping on whether this is a beta or not a beta really doesn't help anyone.

Off soapbox. I'm done.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77584#Comment_77584

But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

Kevin, I don't want to start an argument over this, but suppose there was no 'missing features' listing? Would it now be considered 'complete' and therefore no longer a beta? According to your argument it seems so. So what Logos did wrong was to announce that it would add anything later. They should have kept it a secret and released new features as they chose.

I don't think I can agree with your definition of what a beta is. To me a beta is a developmental version of a product that you want to release. What is going to be released is up to the publisher. Once the product with the features the publisher wants is stable and seems to work on most of the platforms they've been able to test it on, it is released and is no longer a beta. Along the way in beta testing new features are often added and tested, but at some point the publisher has an idea of what he wants in the release version and when it gets there that's it.

While I disagree with you on your definition and the 'proof' found in a list of features Logos would like to add, I do agree that this version of Logos has not been as bug-free as 3.0 was. Frankly I recall some bugs in 2.0 but its been too long to be very specific. Perhaps there was too much of a rush to release this product. Perhaps the beta testing group was not large enough to eliminate more problems before the release, but we really have to go back to 2.0 (Series X) to make a just comparison between version upgrades. 3.0 was not a total re-work. 2.0 was and 4.0 is. Of course there will be more problems in this kind of release.

If people are disillusioned with the quality of this release, I know Logos would be glad to refund them their money. Harping on whether this is a beta or not a beta really doesn't help anyone.

Off soapbox. I'm done.

First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user. If I did not know that they would be adding sermon diagramming, something I used extensively, or importing of notes, favoarites, and highlighting, or a few other features. I would have said, that Logos 4 was a major step backwards in some key features, after the official beta was over I'd have uninstalled and likely stopped using even 3 assuming that Logos was willing to downgrade their software and not want to be bitten by this again after getting used to features. I would have feared that it might happen again.

When a piece of software adds significant features that were not in it before it usually becomes version X.1 instead of X.0a as in the case of Logos 4. For example when sermon diagramming is added, that is a big addition to me. I would warrant a 4.1 number. But since it will likely not be a point release since it is really just bring 4.0 to the point where 3.0 was before plus the new features. So to me that means incomplete software (ie beta).

Yes, Logos determines alone when it is "out of beta" but users will determine when it feels like it is out of beta. I feel like it is not going to be out of beta till the missing features are complete. As for stability, even though I am running the beta version it is very stable and has not crashed much at all lately. But the early weeks after initial release it crashed often. It was in my mind still beta.

BTW I never said "proof" I said "evidence". There is a difference. A proof is something that if determined valid is irrifutable. Evidence points to the possible truth of the claim but has not necessarily proved it.

As for "harping on it" I have quit. But when a person is frustrated and posts things that I agree with, I think this community is here to help the users and so I feel like it is helpful to that person to say, "I'm with you brother/sister." I feel your pain.

To show that I am committed to Logos 4.0, when it got to a point where I felt like it was useable for everyday work I have almost quit using Bibleworks and have invested heavily in added resources. I'll be making a payment to Bob for the next 12 months.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77601#Comment_77601

First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user.

That's what most of us probably would have done and feared for the future. So we know why they announced the coming features.

But when a person is frustrated and posts things that I agree with, I think this community is here to help the users and so I feel like it is helpful to that person to say, "I'm with you brother/sister." I feel your pain.

No disagreement. It's just that anger toward Logos or criticizing their decision-making isn't really going to make things better. Might make some feel better but we've still got what we've got.

I also see us having a role in trying to help make things as useful as possible with the situation we're in. I know you've done that and that's usually why you are posting here.

I'll be making a payment to Bob for the next 12 months.

Well maybe not every month, but I will be paying him, too.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77601#Comment_77601

First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user. If I did not know that they would be adding sermon diagramming, something I used extensively, or importing of notes, favoarites, and highlighting, or a few other features. I would have said, that Logos 4 was a major step backwards in some key features, after the official beta was over I'd have uninstalled and likely stopped using even 3 assuming that Logos was willing to downgrade their software and not want to be bitten by this again after getting used to features. I would have feared that it might happen again.

Some of the features that are considered "missing" in L4 were add-ins in L3. At the very least we should compare base functions to base functions.

Jose Ortega

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77576#Comment_77576

Hey Mike, Try copy and paste a search result. See what you get! And by the way, the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product many Logos costumers have long and faithfully supported.

Thomas Myers

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77619#Comment_77619

Logos 4 has great strength. I love Logos for preparing Bible study lessons, sermons and just my own personal study. I consistently learn more from God's Word as I study from Logos 4. I constantly hear how helpful my printouts help others understand God's word. What about the time saved in studying, not just minutes, but hours saved. Logos 4, what an awesome tool to assist understanding God's Word. Thanks, Logos.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77627#Comment_77627

the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product

Thank you Jose. Well put.

Logos made their decision already knowing how many would be upset - before Bob announced that the Advertising campaign was going ahead, no matter what, etc many beta testers were guessing it would be late Spring before the software would be ready with the "old' features finally in place. Some wondered if the soon to arrive Zondervan products would even put pressure on that "assumed" date. Except for those who may have looked nervously at the two US "conferences" etc NO one was anticipating a End of October/First of November release -- a few speculated about Thanksgiving, due to the US buying patterns.

In the meantime, fortunately, coders and developers continue to almost work around the clock--the latest "betas" are the fruit of that creativity.

But it does no one any good to try to defend the "beta" tag. It only calls for responses like the children's story about The Emperor's New Clothes. People see through that for what it is. And then get more frustrated and angry. Being in "Denial" only makes it worse.

Hang in there, Jose, there really have been good items added into each of the latest beta releases. I anticipate even more. Hopefully one of them will be your "must have" item.

Regards

Steve

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77634#Comment_77634

the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product

Thank you Jose. Well put.

I could not help but notice the use of the term "fanboy" by Jose and then a hearty "amen" from Steve. So I look up this word in the dictionary and it gives the following definition

"fanboy |ˈfanˌboi|noun - informal derogatory an obsessive male fan"

I am always amazed when a disagreement about something so trivial turns into name calling between brothers in Christ. Really Jose and Steve? You find it appropriate to use derogatory name calling towards another Saint? Is this a reflection of Christ formed in you?

How shameful that Christian brothers cannot disagree without resorting to the works of the flesh. [:(]

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77627#Comment_77627

the "fanboy" postings do not promote the legitimate grievances of clients who are willing to pay premium dollars for a software product many Logos costumers have long and faithfully supported.

It's hardly a dirty secret that Logos is continuing to develop their engine - as others have said it will only get better over time - particularly given their responsiveness to constructive suggestions.

In regards to the money. We need to remember that what we are really buying is not the software (the basic engine can be downloaded for free) but rather the additional bundled resources - which (once they released the update script) are available to be used in Logos 3 if that is your current preferred way to access them.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77648#Comment_77648

I agree that Logos 4 is still very much like a beta program. I also will state that Logos made some serious errors in how they released the new product!

I didn't like Logos 4 at all during the first 3-4 weeks and one of the biggest problems was that there was no simple way of finding out the information that I needed to find. However, as more videos have come out and I paid another 70.00 for both of the Morris' Logos 4 manuals, I am less frustrated and now I seriously all ready love the program and can hardly wait for the rest of it.

I think part of my problems was that I had spent alot of money and time to learn Libronix 3, and because of that, I can do what every I want with Libronix 3, and I went from there to beginner over night and the worse part of it was, there was nothing I could do about it, because of a huge lack of materials showing me how to use the new system. For many people those horrible days are still here, they have not seen the materials out there or in some cases can not afford to buy them.

After I first bought Logos 4 and when i was still mad at Logos, I still had some choices to make, because after 2-3 week I knew things were not what I was expecting.

I knew I could return the product and get my money back, which for some might be a good option but it wasn't for me,

Instead what I decided to do was to forget about Logos 4 until spring time, and just enjoy the great deal that I got on my upgrade in Libronix 3. I had decided this would be my best option to avoid all the frustration I was having be trying to learn Logos 4 without the correct tools.

It was on the very day that I decided to go back to Libronix 3 for a while, that I got the manuals from Morris Proctor. Wow, what a change for me, I started reading them right away and discovered these are the best manual that Morris has ever done. Both manuals have an index in the back soyou can quickly find out where your subject can be found. At about this same time other users had started putting up some really good videos about Logos 4 and then shortly after that John F. came out with his set of videos.

So, I never did go back to Libronix 3, although when a feature is missing in Logos 4, I fire up Libronix 3 and use it the way I did before Logos 4.

Now to me the cool thing is by the time Logos 4 is complete, I will already know how to use it.

If Logos would have released Logos 4 differently and we would have known up front what we know now they could have avoided a lot of heartaches for both us and them.

Let's say for a moment that Logos 4 is completed by July, it would not have been done any earlier if they had delayed the early release, but since we do not lose any functiion in Libronix those that want to, got a great buy on Logos package deals that work in Libronix 3, plus if you want to start learning the new program, and are willing to put up with beta type updates and problems you can dive in to Logos 4 right now, and if you want to pretend like Logos 4 was not released until July, wait until they actually get everything stable and all the old features back in it, and then start using it, and think of it as the real release date! Or if you don't like these options send it back for a refund if it is not to late!

I understand what you are saying and I am hoping some of these ideas will help you.

If the system is not to your liking right now, don't force yourself to use it, go back and enjoy an expanded Libronix 3! Forget about Logos 4 until sometme in late spring.

In Christ,

Jim

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77666#Comment_77666

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

They chose #2 for a specific reason; THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

A WIN WIN for everyone.

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

Blair Laird

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77699#Comment_77699

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

They chose #2 for a specific reason; THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

A WIN WIN for everyone.

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

I am glad logos 4 came out without the features. I like being right there on the testing ground and being able to suggest how to make the product easier to use. For those who have 3 and are not comfortable with version 4, they can run them side by side. Version 4 far surpasses version 3, it just has a couple kinks to be worked out.

I am Glad they released version 4 early

Dan Pogue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77710#Comment_77710

This is running in beta? Shows you how much I know!!! [:S] I know that spiritual ignorance is a bad thing, but sometimes it is nice not to know some things!

Blessings,

danp

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77715#Comment_77715

This is running in beta?

Dan..I'm not sure if that's a joke or not...(If it is....good one) but the term "beta" gets thrown around as a perjorative term when someone doesn't see a feature that they feel should be included.

It's not beta software...but if a person really thought that Sentence Diagrams should be there (I'm one of them) then THIS IS BETA!! [:D]

777

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77715#Comment_77715

Logos 4 should be in beta? I thought it already was. [:)]

Just kidding; don't get your shorts all in a knot.

I think that after time Logos 4 will be better than Logos 3. Right now I happen to LIKE how I can easily install Logos 4 and have all my licensed resources swarm over the ethernet and build a nest on my hard drive. This beats the bloody forehead way of installing all of my resources in Logos 3.

I'll be glad like everyone else when I can print and all that, but I can use it for some things now with the promise of other things to come later on. At first I was TICKED because this is supposed to be a LIBRARY, you know, all stable and there when you need it - and to have the rug pulled out of L3 and L4 not being ready for real work kind of struck me as very wrong. But, it is what it is. It'll get better.

When I saw this thread I thought that the OP must have missed the first 8 rounds, when everyone else already came out swinging. Owell, it'll get better and I just use what it has now and I'll get all warm and fuzzy when the new features get added. I'll need to keep my face in the forums though, because unless the new features are painted day-glo orange I'm not going to be looking for them.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77720#Comment_77720

the term "beta" gets thrown around as a perjorative term when someone doesn't see a feature that they feel should be included.

Hi Robert,

I think the term "beta" can have pejorative connatations as you explain. But, let me just simply say (and forget the word beta altogether), my concern is not over features that are incomplete, while that is a concern of others. My concern is that new releases have problems and bugs beyond my level of comfort and yes, beyond what I remember them to be in earlier versions of Logos software. The solution for me can be just to wait several months until I see that releases are more stable=to my liking. Hope this helps.

Jose Ortega

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77726#Comment_77726

Hey Steve, why do you assume I am a "Christian" brother? What kind of a forum is this? Did I just fuel through a worm-whole in the Logos space-time continuum and land at a fundamentalist bible camp? (I am a costumer. I support the product I have for over ten years). Is there a forum master who can tame the Talibanesque behavior?

btw/ in the real world a "fanboy" is not derogatory, It describes a resolute defender of a view or opinion in a forum. We are all "fanboys" of something on someone. I have been accused of being a Jesus "fan boy." Of that accusation I am unashamed!

I am not an American Christianity "fan boy! I am not a Logos 4 "fan boy" yet I am a member of both camps. I support both. In fact, I am just shelling out some more Holiday Cheers for the logos skunk works for the Silver upgrade.

halleluiah

Doug

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77666#Comment_77666

Let's say for a moment that Logos 4 is completed by July, it would not have been done any earlier if they had delayed the early release, but since we do not lose any functiion in Libronix those that want to, got a great buy on Logos package deals that work in Libronix 3, plus if you want to start learning the new program, and are willing to put up with beta type updates and problems you can dive in to Logos 4 right now, and if you want to pretend like Logos 4 was not released until July, wait until they actually get everything stable and all the old features back in it, and then start using it, and think of it as the real release date! Or if you don't like these options send it back for a refund if it is not to late!

I think this is a great point. It's not like we're really missing anything. We still have the features available in L3. The original poster's point was no different that my first post and I remember clearly a lot of you posting to try to encourage me to just hand in there a little while and I would get the point of L4. You were right. I did. Now, I think it's great. I wanted to pass the kindness that you all have shown me on to this one who is a frustrated new user.

The fact is, it doesn't even matter whether L4 is still beta or not. As Jim said, we purchased a great new bundle of resources that we can use in L3. But if you want to, and if you find it productive, you can begin using L4 now. If not, you can wait until everything is in place. We are a community here. We are here to help and to be helped. Let's keep that spirit flowing on these forums and continue to show brotherly/sisterly love towards one another and let Jesus rule in the Logos forums.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77726#Comment_77726

Logos 4 should be in beta? I thought it already was.

Just kidding; don't get your shorts all in a knot.

MikeM,

it has taken me a while to see your style...dry humor, straightforward manner, to the point.

I'm a little bull-headed so the combination (at first) was like water on a grease fire (don't ask me how I know) but now, I've had time to reflect on your comments and understand your style, and I'd like to do two things:

1.) Apologize for my past behavior (you're gonna have to search the threads for specifics)

2.) Say that I value your opinion and your "biblical knowledge" here on the forums.

God bless, brother....

bob

Bryan Brodess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77699#Comment_77699

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

They chose #2 for a specific reason; THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

A WIN WIN for everyone.

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

I agree.

I guess we could look at it like this.

Logos 4 was released early so everyone could use it.. I know I love the extra resources and tools I have now..

Did anyone expect windows 7 to be released without having to add features and updates?? Xp had 3 service packs.. Vista was on which service pack..

I personally praise logos for doing what they did. I also think they are getting alot more feedback from users doing it this way that a regular "beta" program.. and it will benefit us all!!

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77699#Comment_77699

DOES NO ONE REMEMBER Bob P saying that they could have waited until all of the "expected features" were in place before releasing V4?

There were two roads to go down

1.) Wait. continue to develop. When v4 had all of the expected eventual features...then release. (in the mean time...nobody gets to use the software...

2.) Release with "features coming"

They chose #2 for a specific reason; THOSE FEATURES(in their research) were features that only a SMALL PERCENTAGE of the user base used. (syntax diagrams, printing, etc)

So in their mind...anyone WHO WANTED TO NOT BUY BUT WAIT UNTIL EVERYTHING IS 100% LIKE THEY WANT...(Jose, Steve) can do so....they are not negatively affected in the least by having a product available for sale by Logos....they continue to use V3 as they always have.

Also, other users (those who want) could use the product also....

A WIN WIN for everyone.

I find it very distasteful when those who purport to be Christian ascribe ulterior motives to Logos' decisions when they have no knowledge of what drove those decisions; it's no different than negative gossip.

Robert, I disagree with your "win
win for everyone" statement. For those of us who have decided to
wait. I decided to wait until the features that I use are available
(print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at
the end of the month. Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have
to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

I
did download v4 engine to see what all the talk was about. It could be
from the fact that I downloaded the engine instead of upgrading, but none of my
settings were copied into v4.

Because
v4 was able to find my library, I figure that it could also find my settings.
If I have 100 or so books marked to be hidden, why must I re-mark these
books to be hidden? I have several collections of just a few books.
Why do I have to recreate these collections? (NOTE: I do like the
fact that we can setup collections to include books automatically.) I
have a couple hundred workspaces (I have one setup for each Sunday of the three-year
lectionary cycle, special worship services, and exegetical texts.) Why
must I convert my workspaces to layouts?

Every
time I do start v4, it has to update and re-index (and thus hours of
reduce computer performance). For me, I think v4 should still be in Alpha
testing.

Because
I am sooooooo unhappy with v4 in its current condition, I currently cannot be a
supporter of Logos on my seminary campus. I cannot wait until the day
arrives when I can be a supporter of Logos.

Bryan Brodess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77783#Comment_77783

Robert, I disagree with your "win
win for everyone" statement. For those of us who have decided to
wait. I decided to wait until the features that I use are available
(print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at
the end of the month. Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have
to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

I can not agree. they are offering the upgrade discount now.. You will get what you want..

would you rather wait until it is fully released, and pay the full price.. or buy now at reduced price.. knowing you will get the full release..

It is like was stated in the blog to a persons question. If you buy the package now at reduced rate, you will get the full Mac version when it is released.. if you wait until the full mac version is released you are out of luck. and will pay full price..

If you wait until all your features are active. you pay full price..

or you can buy now.. and continue to use logos 3 until your features are released..

it is up to you.,

Dan Pogue

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77783#Comment_77783

Hey Robert,

I think that it was intended to be a joke...when it comes to compter stuff, I don't know enough to fill a eighth of an inch measuring cup...actually confused with al this lingo that has gone on here! I am just happy and blessed to have the new rescources with L4 and being able to do so much more with it! As it has been said before and is so true for me...SIMPLE MINDS ARE EASILY ENTERTAINED!!!!! I certainly meant no malce whatsoever in previous post about the beta...

blessings,

danp

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77804#Comment_77804

When you incorporate new features (EX. Clippings) into a new program, then you need to support those new features (EX. Printing).

While I didn't print with L3 I desperatly want/need to pring in L4 because of the new features (which added the need to print)... I think this should have been expected, and certainly was/is expected by the majority now.

Clippings is just one example of the need to have in-system printing... there are many others... (EX. the great new search results should be printable, certainly at LEAST copy(able).

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77783#Comment_77783

I decided to wait until the features that I use are available (print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at the end of the month. Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have to pay a higher price for the upgrade.

Hi Tom,

Are you aware that you can buy an upgrade package to get the new resources AND USE THEM IN L3 until you feel L4 is ready? Logos did a dual release of the new resources so you don't have to wait to do the upgrade. If that's of interest to you, check their blog to find the scripts to download the L3 equivalents.

It really was intended to be a win-win, as Bob wrote. And he's not divining what Bob Pritchett thought in releasing early, Bob P responded with his thinking in response to beta tester concerns that were similar to yours (& mine, as a beta tester). Giving us L3 versions of all the new resources takes away all the risk.

Many blessings on your decision...

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77736#Comment_77736

Hey Steve, why do you assume I am a "Christian" brother?

Hi, Jose, welcome back

BUT that was NOT me - I don't "assume" anything, except to "feel your pain"

that was our "brother" Joe who posted:QUOTE: Christian brothers

Nevertheless, I do hope you "are."

All the best as you enjoy your new purchase.

Regards

Steve

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77783#Comment_77783

Robert, I disagree with your "win
win for everyone" statement. For those of us who have decided to
wait. I decided to wait until the features that I use are available
(print, notes, etc...), and now we are told that the upgrade discount ends at
the end of the month. Therefore, for those of us who decided to wait have
to pay a higher price for the upgrade

Tom,

Well....if you want a special deal, then yes...by all means...buy now...but the reality is that what I stated was Logos' reasoning on the matter.

You COULD buy now...and NOT INSTALL...pretending like it doesn't exist...and wait until you think it's ready....then install and THEN it's a win-win for you....right?

I just don't see a downside....no matter what side you're on...it's a winning situation.

EDITED TO ADD: Whoops...looks like someone beat me to this answer [:D]

Jose Ortega

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/77978#Comment_77978

Steve, sorry for the typo...

peace

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78131#Comment_78131

As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not. At least I am not. I can and I believe WILL be a great program. But it suffers from some beta-like weaknesses.

1. Speed on many machines is less than adequate. This has been greatly improved by the current betas.

2. Lack of very significant v. 3.0 features - see missing features list

3. Some are reporting bugginess - but I don't think this is a real issue since almost all software has some bugs even very mature software. But if you are dealing with such a bug (I have the black title bar bug) then it might be significant.

Once the missing features are added back, by then I hope they will have optimized things to make speed not an issue for all. Then It will be a mature and stable and GREAT!!! application.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78297#Comment_78297

As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not

Well YOU may not be but if "usage controls meaning" in the bible....so it does here on the forum...in the vast majority of instances BETA means "not ready for release because it lacks my favorite feature"...and therefore, the word beta IS being used in a negative way...and not as a technical term.

You've never heard someone on these forums say: "Wow! V4 is BETA! It has everything I want!"

No....lol....because the term is being used as synonymous with " It shouldn't have been released before I was satisfied with what's included!"

But there is a problem with using the "beta" label: Logos believes that this software is good enough for release; it's theirs, they can deem it's level of "preparedness" any way they see fit...they've called it "released" and therefore; it's NOT beta software...but actual released software.

Now...it may be many things:

"less zippy than you'd like"

Agreed.

And it may be:

"less feature filled than I'd like to see"

Agreed.

"missing some important elements"

Agreed.

But the word beta refers to a specific level that the software is at....namely a "testing phase" and more specifically means "not ready for public use"

And that's not an accurate statement in they eyes of those who produce this software.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78303#Comment_78303

..in the vast majority of instances BETA means "not ready for release because it lacks my favorite feature"..

I disagree. BETA means not ready for release because it doesn't work properly on many computers...download issues, crashes, indexing issues... L4 is a great program. But many cannot use it because it simply wont work properly for everyone. I know someone will now follow up this post by telling us they are running windows 95 on a 20 year old computer and L4 works fine. But the bottom line is, it does not work on many computers

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78308#Comment_78308

But many cannot use it because it simply wont work properly for everyone.

Mark,

the problem with that statement is that that label can be applied to a lot of released software...and it's improper to call software that lacks your favorite features or that doesn't run as fast as you think it should as "beta."

You said "many cannot use it"

Well first; how many is many that flat out don't have the ability to actually use the program?

How many are we talking about?

5? 10? 100?

What's the Logos V4 user base up to?

------------------------------------

How about defining "work properly"?

You mean that you push a button to "open" BWS and your ESV pops up?

do you mean (as I mentioned) "it lacks my favorite feature"?

Well...V4 may lack a lot of thing people desire and it may not be fast in some cases, but the word beta is specific.

Doug

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78311#Comment_78311

I think you are both correct becuase Logos has released a stable version. That is not beta. It is released. There is a current beta version in the works to fix bugs and add new features. That one is beta. All that matters to me is that we have a good piece of software to do our Bible study with and we have a great piece of software on the way.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78314#Comment_78314

I think you are both correct becuase Logos has released a stable version. That is not beta. It is released. There is a current beta version in the works to fix bugs and add new features. That one is beta. All that matters to me is that we have a good piece of software to do our Bible study with and we have a great piece of software on the way.

On THAT....i think we'd all agree.. [:D]

AndyTheGreek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/78297#Comment_78297

As I read this I think that many people think those of us who think it is "beta-like" are saying it is a bad program. We are not. At least I am not. I can and I believe WILL be a great program. But it suffers from some beta-like weaknesses.

1. Speed on many machines is less than adequate. This has been greatly improved by the current betas.

2. Lack of very significant v. 3.0 features - see missing features list

3. Some are reporting bugginess - but I don't think this is a real issue since almost all software has some bugs even very mature software. But if you are dealing with such a bug (I have the black title bar bug) then it might be significant.

Once the missing features are added back, by then I hope they will have optimized things to make speed not an issue for all. Then It will be a mature and stable and GREAT!!! application.

One other aspect of Beta is that, in production software, data structures have to be stable. Bob has already stated that some of the need to update tons of resources is because the data structure has changed. I would guess that this is why 1000 Bible Images (a bulky download) has updated (I think) twice since Logos4 was released. I doubt the actual graphics have changed...

One of the fundamental 'laws' of robust software development is the 'open/closed' principle. That is the software is 'open' to extension BUT closed to CHANGE. And changes to data structures lead to such pervasive data changes that we (I'm a professional developer) avoid them as much as possible because of the pain it causes both developers and customers.

For this reason I've stopped using Logos4 - I cannot afford to use up (or be charged for extra) bandwidth (I'm in the UK and have just a few gigs a month). Neither can I afford the time - I bought this software to enhance my Bible Study not to be subjected to download after download and mega index updates several times a month.

I plan to use Logos3 for the next few months and when Logos4 seems 'stable' in the sense that program changes don't require me to redownload loads of (mostly unused) resources then I will revisit it.

Andy