Quality control in Logos 6 - a new perspective

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This post has 174 Replies | 12 Followers

Posts 180
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:14 AM

Super.Tramp:

Denise:
I don't know where they're at in their 'work in progress'.  So, I don't use it.

Funny how the people complaining about Logos do not use it.

What's "funny" in a VERY sad way is: The folks who are not complaining. When L6 was intro'd I upgraded to a very large package. I test drove it for a month and could not justify keeping it. Simply too buggy. I knew if I complained , I would just be chastised by the fanboys. So I quietly returned it. I suspect there are many others who did the same. Faithlife will see the trend in their sales/return numbers. I just hope it's not too late.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:18 AM

Denise:
Not too funny if you paid for uselessness, ergo Francis' thread.

I have purchased the highest level of each Logos 6 base package. My orders have surpassed $50K by a long shot. I have received great value and functionality for my money.

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Posts 180
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:23 AM

I rest my case.Stick out tongue

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:31 AM

Lee:

Funny how some people are erecting perfection as a straw man.

If you had the decision power at Faithlife, how would you set priorities? Would you continue releasing resources that are imperfect? Would you direct all resources to tweaking the base software? Or would you balance them somewhat like Bob Pritchett is doing?

Maybe Faithlife should strive to have less features, much like Accordance.   Motto: "Do less with your Bible software."

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Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:38 AM

Super.Tramp:
Motto: "Do less with your Bible software."

I just want Logos 6 to do what it says on the tin. I just want my Logos program to work as it says it will. that's not seeking perfection – just adequate functionality.

Every blessing

Alan

iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:50 AM

Alan Macgregor:
I just want my Logos program to work as it says it will. that's not seeking perfection – just adequate functionality.

I ask you the same question the others are reticent to answer;  Should future releases of resources be suspended until Faithlife gets Logos 6 functionality to 100%?   I imagine everyone's honest answer would be , "Yes, just not my pet resources."  So how does BobP balance everything?

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 9:57 AM

This thread is better than most soap operas. It's got it all - drama and passion, misunderstandings and reconciliation, the rich and the poor, anguish and suffering, joy and exultation. WinkAngel

Posts 130
Willard Scott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 10:03 AM

C'mon folks;

Let's cut the super pup some slack. He did stand up to the powers that be a while back. As a matter of fact he ranted and raved for months on just that one thread. https://community.logos.com/forums/t/88357.aspx?PageIndex=1 

It was an issue that affected him personally. I guess if you want the pup to bite the hand that feeds him, You gotta step directly on His toes. Possibly that's what the puppy pic signifies.

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 10:04 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

This thread is better than most soap operas. It's got it all - drama and passion, misunderstandings and reconciliation, the rich and the poor, anguish and suffering, joy and exultation. WinkAngel

Big SmileBig Smile


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 10:47 AM

Willard Scott:
It was an issue that affected him personally. I guess if you want the pup to bite the hand that feeds him, You gotta step directly on His toes. Possibly that's what the puppy pic signifies.

Good observation. I speak up best for the issues that affect me personally. If I took up offences on behalf of others I would be nothing more than a badger. I'd rather be a Faithlife lapdog.  Smile

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Silver Hawk | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 10:52 AM

Super.Tramp:
I'd rather be a Faithlife lapdog.
Congrats;

It would appear that you got your wish.

Posts 3770
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 11:42 AM

I can understand that there may be annoyance at diverging positions, but it would be good to cut out of the sarcasm and barbs and return to something more constructive, no?

We've learned what we already knew: that not everybody has the same usage and expectations. However, I think the point has sufficiently been made and the real question is whether this was just much ado about nothing or whether Logos will hear and respond.

Posts 1875
Alan Macgregor | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 12:41 PM

Super.Tramp:
Should future releases of resources be suspended until Faithlife gets Logos 6 functionality to 100%?

Yes, absolutely. No hesitation. I think it would be in everyone's interests to have a stable, reliable engine that just works. Then all those existing resources, datasets and functions would work without falling over, freezing, etc.

I need Logos to work every time. As it is I spend a considerable amount of time every week when I should be working on the Bible text for Bible Study and Sermon Preparation, just trying to get things to work!

Every blessing

Alan

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Posts 226
Tim | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 1:19 PM

Alan Macgregor:

Super.Tramp:
Should future releases of resources be suspended until Faithlife gets Logos 6 functionality to 100%?

Yes, absolutely. No hesitation. I think it would be in everyone's interests to have a stable, reliable engine that just works. Then all those existing resources, datasets and functions would work without falling over, freezing, etc.

While this solution sounds attractive, I don't see any way that this could be possible when one looks at the actual business of software development. For example, Faithlife at least in the past has outsourced their transcription portion of their development cycle to a third party to move things from hard copy to electronic. That is the specialty of the 3rd party, but they may not and quite likely are not well suited for the more detailed work of Q/A who review before formal publishing. So should Faithlife stop having pre pubs because Q/A isn't keeping up? Now, if Q/A needs to review more/better before releasing, or catching up on resources that have been released in a flawed state, that means hiring additional personnel and training them. You cannot simply poach from the development staff (or some other department) who have a whole different skill set entirely unrelated to Q/A. Should those other departments be held at a standstill until Q/A (if indeed I have the appropriate dept name there) gets caught up? 

Now If Faithlife were to stop future development on Logos 7 (a what, 2 yr/3 yr/4 yr development cycle?) and devote say 6 months to a year patching, bug squishing, etc. assuming that software troubleshooting is the same/similar skill set as development, which IS an assumption. Then the development cycle is set back by 6mo - 1yr. That delays a measure of their own profitability paying those developers with little direct ROI. That also means that when the next versions of operating systems are released and users are grumping that L6 does not take advantage of whatever OS integration and feature set (the complaint that L5 didn't support 64 processing on Mac comes to mind, I am sure that isn't the only one) they will be that much further behind being able to keep their product technologically current and relevant with respect to the platform they are on. 

I have my own set of things I think need to be improved. I am quite well aware that each version has had problems, and I have encountered resources that are poorly tagged that have affected how I work, at least in the short term. However, if this is to be a productive thread, which has been asserted a couple times previously, let us please attempt to refrain form broad sweeping, unrealistic demands and remain rather more tightly focused on specific and targeted problems and solutions.

Let us also remember that while Faithlife is a corporation, it is comprised of brothers and sisters in Christ who walk before the same Lord, who are commanded to work as unto the Lord and not unto man, just like the rest of us. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 1:35 PM

Dave Hooton:

 The ambiguities of Case Frames e.g. 'love' as an Agent, leads to a lack of trust, but I don't believe that the method could help me to "better understand the verb in its context"! It's far too mechanical.

Actually, I've been using case frames for close to a decade and find it really helps me in understanding translation. But in the sense that it fits nicely into computational linguistics your complaint is not unfounded.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Sean Boisen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 1:54 PM

I'm grateful for all the constructive comments in this thread: we know we can always do better, and we're committed to it. Please do continue to speak up about any data quality concerns you have, especially if you can provide specifics. We can't fix everything as quickly as most users would like (especially not your issue), but in many cases we can at least provide information like

  • can we confirm that it's a data error or program bug?
  • do we plan to fix it?
  • is the fix coming in the next release? (given the software development process, that's about as far ahead as we can commit)

It's not possible for us to anticipate all the ways people use Logos, given all the functionality and resources it includes. If you can't accomplish the task you want with Logos, we want to hear about it: that might identify data errors to correct, or software bugs, or features we should improve. Sometimes there may be a different route to the same goal (I regularly learn new things like this from users on the forums). This is also an important way we uncover ideas for new features.

I'm in full agreement with several posters who have asked us to document our datasets, and I'm committed to making that happen. That will take some time: my current priorities are those data sets that are new to Logos 6 (they're the least familiar) and/or the most complex (because there's more that needs documenting). Feel free to voice your own priorities as well: Logos UserVoice is probably the best place to do that.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 2:14 PM

Francis:

Here again it shows how more training/documentation could help a great deal (where this is the problem). It is not immediately clear that . . .

I also want to acknowledge a hierarchy of problems. I understand that BSL is innovative (in a very good way) and so tricky. Fine. But it is the accumulation of all the problems that has become too much. But even among those of us who are fed up and irrate, I think Logos should realize that we want the company to succeed! It's a win-win prospect!!!

To step back a bit ...

If you follow the forums you know that there are a number of users who don't understand why a lexicon can have two lemmas that are spelled identically. At the other end we have the scholars who made the distinction for the lexicon. What level of training do we expect of Logos? I think their obligation ends at explaining the software and precise documentation required for use. It is to their advantage to do more and to offer resources applying the concept (case frames - Danove). So in the case of the BSL, it seems that often the user expects it to work at the lemma level not at the sense level. It is not a very effective tool when misunderstood in this way. I threw up my hands on updating the wiki because links to material explaining what the BSL is was deemed too detailed. I believe that the user base of Logos is too broad for them to take responsibility for training - one problem I ran into was using the term "protocanonical" which I was informed would not be understood. Faithlife needs to provide blogs, videos and articles that interest one in learning how to use a tool ... but I'm not sure they should be a sole instructor.

BTW: I had been asking both for the BSL and case frames for several years before they came to Logos. My biggest complaint with the BSL is that it only reflects hierarchical relationships.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mathew Haferkamp | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 3:40 PM

Yes I still trust logos, why not??  Are you really expecting perfection??

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 3:43 PM

MJ. Smith:
I believe that the user base of Logos is too broad for them to take responsibility for training - one problem I ran into was using the term "protocanonical" which I was informed would not be understood. Faithlife needs to provide blogs, videos and articles that interest one in learning how to use a tool ... but I'm not sure they should be a sole instructor.

Yup. And until they do I will continue to use outside resources like Barnes, Proctor, and Fallahee.  

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 9 2015 4:02 PM

John McKenna:
I appreciate the work of these men and women and I also understand that to "wait" for perfection in the product before distribution would be ludicrous.

Usability is difficult to define but that is the qualitative goal that should be attained before distribution e.g  I don't regard Case Frames as usable but it should be usable for those who appreciate the method. It would incorporate parameters like completeness, accuracy, and 'bugginess' where the compilers would account for completeness and accuracy whilst the developers would account for bugginess of the implementation. This is Quality Assurance. Quality Control is responsible for ensuring the product meets these goals.

John McKenna:
As far as program bugs go; yes there are unacceptable levels of bugs which do prevent general distribution of all software. However, the beta process is an accepted method of finding critical bugs and coding failures prior to that distribution. Both Apple and Microsoft use the beta programs in similar way to Logos and, like Logos, distribute essential OSs which still include bugs and associated problems.

Critical bugs are easy because anybody can detect them and the 'crash' has to be fixed. But QA has to ensure there is a program to detect less severe bugs and have them fixed before the software is released. This is usually called the Alpha process, but the 'Beta' process is commonly used in its place these days and I don't think it is acceptable for users to pick up silly errors or find that features are unusable when they are not mentioned in the Release Notes  i.e. when they are unrelated (as far as the user knows) to the bugs being fixed or features being implemented.

Testing is the art of finding the bugs that are inherent in software and it is accepted that there will be latent/hidden bugs even after the most rigorous of testing programs. But I find it unacceptable that known bugs are ignored, new bugs are not acknowledged and that developer preferences override user/customer requests!

So you can bag Windows for its 'security' issues but MS doesn't compromise essential usability to the extent that I (and others) perceive in Logos, and I won't mention what Apple does to its customers... (also remember that I'm not talking about platform preferences).

I could say that Faithlife have lost the perspective of their customers' needs since Logos 5 and you only have to read the forums on indexing issues to get some insight on that matter. 

Is all this being critical or negative? That can be the perception, but if it is based on facts then it should be regarded more objectively. At least that has been my aim and that of the OP. I trust Faithlife to listen and I trust Faithlife to be using their product, but I can overcome most of the technical issues (crashes!) that come my way whilst others simply cannot.

And usability also comes down to documentation; particularly for the new Logos 6 tagging and search features.

Dave
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