Another Search for God the Father (aka I'm a seeker)

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jun 19 2015 12:34 PM

I'm struggling to understand why there is no cohesion among our search abilities. I was having a discussion about God being the father because of John 5:18, and I thought I'd look up the OT understand of God as Father.

So I used some new Logos 6 abilities and ran a search, "<Person God> ANDEQUALS Father"

Small aside: "<Person God> WITHIN 0 WORDS Father" returns false positives where God is tagged with the whole names used, like Gen 28:13 ("LORD, the God of Abraham your father"). "<Person God> ANDEQUALS <Sense = father>" returns nothing, though I feel like it should return something close to my search that kind of works above.

This returns Mal 2:10 as the only OT hit. Problem is, I think that Mal 1:6 should also be a hit, not to mention other well known verses like Isa 63:16 and Isa 64:8. They would be a direct hit with "Father" which implies they're not tagged as <Person God>. So if you right-click Father in Mal 2:10, you get a nice field on the Bible Sense Lexicon that looks like this (God <=> father):

Cool, so I click on Search, this resource and it gives me a new search: "<Sense = God ⇔ father>"

I like that, helpful for the software to teach me the right search. Problem is, it only returns OT verses: Deut 32:6, Isa 63:16, Isa 64:8, Jer 2:27, Jer 3:4, Jer 3:19, Jer 31:9, Mal 2:10

It's still missing Mal 1:6, but more importantly, it's missing the DOZENS of NT uses of God as Father. Those appear in my original search ("<Person God> ANDEQUALS Father").

I search the forums [General 2013, Logos 5 2013, Logos 6 2015] and and see the other ways of handling this search that are disappointing too.

For instance, in that last thread, if you go into Factbook and open up the entry on God, then you get Father in the "Referred to as" section, but nothing from the pre-Apocrypha OT. Jeff Jackson of Faithlife offers the suggestion to open up the topic "God the Father (Diety)". It returns some good OT references including Mal 1:6, but only 27 total, which falls short if you care about the NT.

My question is, why can't all of these searches and references (and tagging) be coherent and comprehensive?

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Fred Chapman | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2015 2:44 PM

The dataset that drives the <Person> search is not done at the word level. It simply identifies people in a given verse or passage and does not care how they are identified in the text. I agree it would be nice to see a more concise and consistent approach for identifying senses.

To do you search try <Person God> WITHIN Father

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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2015 2:54 PM

Fredc:

To do you search try <Person God> WITHIN Father

Thanks for the feedback Fred.

The WITHIN search comes back with the same results as my ANDEQUALS search.

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Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jun 19 2015 8:56 PM

William Gabriel:
I thought I'd look up the OT understand of God as Father.

Can't think of an easy way to search for this, William, but here are some suggestions to help you focus your search:

  1. God as Father to Israel (e.g. Ex 4:22; 13:15; Isa 45:11; Eze 16:20-12; Hos 11:1).
  2. God as Father to the king/ruler who represents Israel (e.g. 2 Sam 7:14; Psa 2:7).
  3. God as Father to humanity (e.g. Acts 17:28; Eph 3:14-15; 5:1; and possibly Luke 3:38).
  4. God as Father to the spiritual realm (e.g. Job 1:6; 2:1; 37:7).

I would argue that Gen 6:2-4; Deut 32:8; and Psa 82:6 all belong somewhere in the first three categories, so there would be those who would lump them into #4.

There is also a possible theme of God as Father of the firstborn who represent his providence (e.g. Num 3:12-13, and perhaps Col 1:15).

Hopefully that helps you expand your search a bit.

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LimJK | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 20 2015 4:13 AM

William Gabriel:

My question is, why can't all of these searches and references (and tagging) be coherent and comprehensive?

William,

Your post got me interested ... so I did some investigation ... to support your question. (Disclaimer: this may not be comprehensive)

  • The NT reference I can find are tag only with <Person God> without Bible <Sense > taging

  • Most of the OT reference that you are looking for are tagged with <Sense God <=> father> however these are tag with <Person A father> instead of <Person God> as in NT

  • One execeptional OT reference while it is tagged with <Sense God <=> Father> it is at the same time tagged with <Person God> consistent with NT

So, armed with the above information, this search may be closer to what you are looking for

JK

MacBookPro Retina 15" Late 2013 2.6GHz RAM:16GB SSD:500GB macOS Sierra 10.12.3 | iPhone 7 Plus iOS 10.2.1

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Schumitinu | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 22 2015 4:25 AM

Have you tried this search:

{Section <Culture God as father>} AND father

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LogosEmployee

Hi:

I'm not entirely certain if this will help here, but I've responded to a related post here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/106683/740112.aspx#740112

Jeremy

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jul 1 2015 4:31 PM

William Gabriel:
Small aside: "<Person God> WITHIN 0 WORDS Father" returns false positives where God is tagged with the whole names used, like Gen 28:13 ("LORD, the God of Abraham your father").

There is some mis-tagging, but this search will find all cases where God is addressed as "Father" as opposed to God being likened to a father. ANDEQUALS is restricted to those phrases where only Father is referring to God e.g. each word of  "the God of my father" in Gen 31.5 is tagged as <Person God>. ANDEQUALS would work only if "father" was tagged.

William Gabriel:
"<Person God> ANDEQUALS <Sense = father>" returns nothing, though I feel like it should return something close to my search that kind of works above.

Use <Sense father> WITHIN 0 WORDS <Person God>

Dave
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William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 2 2015 8:18 AM

Dave Hooton:

Use <Sense father> WITHIN 0 WORDS <Person God>

Your explanation makes sense. This new search returns:

Mk 14:36, Lk 22:42, Lk 23:34, Lk 23:46, Jn 8:41, Jn 8:42, Rom 8:15, 1 Cor 1:3, Gal 4:6

Posts 1054
William Gabriel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jul 2 2015 8:25 AM

Jeremy Thompson:

Hi:

I'm not entirely certain if this will help here, but I've responded to a related post here: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/106683/740112.aspx#740112

Jeremy

The discussion there has been helpful. I would be interested in figure out how to use a CONTAINS operator with the BSL search.

It still seems like "<Sense = God ⇔ father>" should pick up NT verses e.g. Matt 6:9. I know you talked about proper nouns being left out, but there are some proper nouns that should be equated with improper nouns (e.g. Spirit).

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