The Complete Biblical Library

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 11:05 AM

MarkSwaim:
The original poster did not break any rules

Yes he DID break the rule but the post was graciously editted.

Read the forum rules one more time. I did not write them. But they exist because many posters did not bother trying to understand the consequences of posting links.

Music Story time! Music Stick out tongue When my missionary parents were traveling across the USA in the 1960's my father had to ask the Highway Patrolman in Wyoming what the speed limit was because we never saw any posted. The patrolman answered, "No limit. Just drive at a safe speed."  My father asked, "What is a safe speed?" The officer replied, "If you have a wreck, you were not driving a safe speed."  Wyoming now has posted speed limits to protect careless drivers from doing damage to themselves and others.

Moral of the story: We went from no rules on the forum to moderate rules. If we can not practice a little "Self-Government with Union" (to borrow a phrase from Foundation for American Christain Eductation; see http://www.logos.com/products/details/3525 ) we may see stricter enforcement of the rules from outside of ourselves.  Nobody appointed me a forum cop. The nifty star under my name is NOT a Sheriff badge. I just hope everybody reads the rules LOGOS imposed and abides by the spirit they were given in.

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 11:40 AM

Matthew C Jones:

MarkSwaim:
The original poster did not break any rules

Yes he DID break the rule but the post was graciously editted.

Read the forum rules one more time. I did not write them. But they exist because many posters did not bother trying to understand the consequences of posting links.

Music Story time! Music Stick out tongue When my missionary parents were traveling across the USA in the 1960's my father had to ask the Highway Patrolman in Wyoming what the speed limit was because we never saw any posted. The patrolman answered, "No limit. Just drive at a safe speed."  My father asked, "What is a safe speed?" The officer replied, "If you have a wreck, you were not driving a safe speed."  Wyoming now has posted speed limits to protect careless drivers from doing damage to themselves and others.

Moral of the story: We went from no rules on the forum to moderate rules. If we can not practice a little "Self-Government with Union" (to borrow a phrase from Foundation for American Christain Eductation; see http://www.logos.com/products/details/3525 ) we may see stricter enforcement of the rules from outside of ourselves.  Nobody appointed me a forum cop. The nifty star under my name is NOT a Sheriff badge. I just hope everybody reads the rules LOGOS imposed and abides by the spirit they were given in.

Matthew,

Here's my story.  I worked in a women's state correctional facility for three years.  My job was to enforce the rules.  I only lasted three years because enforcing rules made me unpopular with the residents and also with my counterparts since I enforced them more to the letter than to the spirit in which they were written.  Other officers were more leniant, offered copious instances of good will, had longer careers and even the residents liked them.  

I would prefer  to see enforcement from "outside ourselves" as you stated and for obvious reasons because IMO, the one who wrote them is ultimately responsible to enforce them.  But we were told to use gentle reminders first among ourselves. One way to do that that first comes to mind is to privately post a comment on someone's profile page; to me that is a gentle reminder.  And it is how I would like to be treated.

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Kolen Cheung | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:15 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Over the years I have owned two sets of the "Complete Biblical Library" in hardback.  It is a fine reference set but is surpassed in every feature by Logos software capabilities. I sold my hardback sets.

The New Testament set was first handled by World Library Press. My second set had a different publisher but I cannot remember who it was.

The current software release is an exclusive as Bill has previously posted. I don't know the duration of the aggreement but it will certainly be a while before it would become available in Logos format. Still, I don't see the need for redundant (and slightly inferior) works.

Everybody knows my sentiments on posting competitor's ads on the Logos forum. I warned everybody if they kept it up Logos would eventually impose forum rules. I was right. I just hope everybody will read those rules closely. There is no exemption clause and no exempted class. We should respect the rules.   (Yes, I know I have to be chastised every now & then. I'm working on breaking my bad habits. Zip it! )

I also find that the Complete Biblical Library "not so good" comparing than what is offered here. So it might be the reason that they don't choose this platform that no one will purchase it. BUT, though its commentary might not be that good, its dictionary is excellent. I doubt that there are dictionaries here is the Logos that can be comparable to it (the closest I can think of is TDNT, but it includes the Greek only. And well, when I say excellent, I also consider the intended audiences. So, I am not comparing that to those most scholarly sets). And, its interlinear can also be useful. Though Lexham might have done a better job (I didn't make the comparison seriously), not every one own it. And this can also be a secondary reference if you own it.

Anyway, the discussion does not mean anything if it won't be included here. Thanks for everyone's sharing.

And thanks for everyone's reminder when I might have violate the rules.

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:29 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Yes he DID break the rule but the post was graciously editted.

Read the forum rules one more time. I did not write them. But they exist because many posters did not bother trying to understand the consequences of posting links.

Matthew, thanks for sticking our head up and taking the flak. For a while there, I thought I was back in the pastorate.

 

 

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:33 PM

Joan Korte:
I worked in a women's state correctional facility for three years

Personally, I always thought the forums were closer to a mental institution...(run by the inmates)

Joan Korte:
I would prefer  to see enforcement from "outside ourselves" as you stated and for obvious reasons because IMO, the one who wrote them is ultimately responsible to enforce them. 

If you can convince Logos, that is fine. But they PREFER us to police ourselves. Since it is their forums, their preference is the one that takes precedence.

 

 

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Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 12:57 PM

Terry,

I don't think Logos used the word "police" which carries with it a set of connotations.  They did say:

"Please help others follow these guidelines. If the problems continue after you’ve given a gentle reminder of these expectations, please click “Report Abuse” under “More” or send an email to forums@logos.com." 

Perhaps, help others and gentle reminder are within the realm of policing to some but not to me.  After all, we are customers of Logos not deviants or felons who do need policing. 

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 1:08 PM

Joan,

The problem you're gonna have is some want to enforce the rules by the letter of "intent" while others just want broad guidelines with lots of mercy thrown in for good measure. Anyone who "reminds" someone of the "intent" of the rules is going to rub the people who follow the broad outline of the rule the wrong way and seem overbearing at times.

I don't think anyone has tried to throw business to a competitor, but how can you suggest something you like in a competitor's product that you would like to see implemented in Logos, without offending the rule keepers? After all it is a suggestion thread.

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 2:22 PM

BobbyTerhune:
I don't think anyone has tried to throw business to a competitor, but how can you suggest something you like in a competitor's product that you would like to see implemented in Logos, without offending the rule keepers? After all it is a suggestion thread

Bobby, since I was the "Rules Keeper" that spoke up, I will explain why I did. What I thought might have been a violation was the posting of a link. You can suggest something without the posting of the link, the OP recognized it and removed it. The rules/guidelines/suggestions from Logos asked us not to post links to competitors products. They didn't qualify it by saying don't post links to competitors products unless you want that competitors products included in Logos. Or don't post links to competitors products unless it is in the suggestion forum. It was a simple don't post links to competitor's products.

Now why you seem to feel that their intent was different from their request, I don't have a clue. But, we clearly disagree and that is allowed by the rules of the forum. 

 

 

 

 

 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 3:35 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Wyoming now has posted speed limits to protect careless drivers from doing damage to themselves and others.

I cannot speak for Wyoming but Oregon was forced by the Federal Government to impose speed limits during the gasoline shortage (early 80?)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 3:41 PM

Joan Korte:
One way to do that that first comes to mind is to privately post a comment on someone's profile page; to me that is a gentle reminder.  And it is how I would like to be treated.

While I prefer to let others do the policing, I think notes on a profile page are often overlooked (for months even). A gentle reminder on the thread not only reminds the poster in a place that is usually checked but also serves to remind the community as a whole that rules do exist. For newcomers this is often a revelation - one that helps them from falling into the same track. The education factor is far stronger than the correction factor.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 3:52 PM

BobbyTerhune:
The problem you're gonna have is some want to enforce the rules by the letter of "intent" while others just want broad guidelines with lots of mercy thrown in for good measure.

We have that problem theologically Smile The rules are nothing but common forum courtesy; other forums I participate in have far fewer violations of courtesy. I suspect that is because they are more technically oriented so that participate generally already "know" the rules. Here it seems more like participants need to learn the rules - should reading the rules be a prerequisite for posting? Not practical so the Logos gentle reminder philosophy makes sense.

BobbyTerhune:
I don't think anyone has tried to throw business to a competitor

I beg to differ but will not name names.

BobbyTerhune:
but how can you suggest something you like in a competitor's product that you would like to see implemented in Logos, without offending the rule keepers? After all it is a suggestion thread.

I've never found that to be difficult.  I describe the feature I like - I may mention that I've seen it in other software. I may identify the software in terms like "free software from the Vatican", "a Latin-Vulgate oriented product" ... I only name software when it is clearly outside Logos' domain such as Inspiration 9, a graphic organizer educational software package or Austhink's argument mapping package.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 4:33 PM

Terry,

I had no problem with the way you responded, you even threw in some humor for good measure! I was really trying to say (perhaps poorly!) that depending on the perspective a person holds about the rules, is how they will respond to reminders about those same rules. It really boils down to a seemingly no win situation. English is such a hard language to communicate in, hence the need for emoticons to avoid misunderstandings. 

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 4:57 PM

BobbyTerhune:
. It really boils down to a seemingly no win situation. English is such a hard language to communicate in, hence the need for emoticons to avoid misunderstandings. 

Agreed. Big Smile

 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:12 PM

MJ. Smith:
cannot speak for Wyoming but Oregon was forced by the Federal Government to impose speed limits during the gasoline shortage (early 80?)

Technically you are correct. I think several states complied to keep their Federal highway funds coming. But the Feds are quick to point out when the 55 mph speed limit kicked in, the highway traffic fatalities were significantly lowered. Thanks, Big Brother!

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:19 PM

BobbyTerhune:

The problem you're gonna have is some want to enforce the rules by the letter of "intent" while others just want broad guidelines with lots of mercy thrown in for good measure. Anyone who "reminds" someone of the "intent" of the rules is going to rub the people who follow the broad outline of the rule the wrong way and seem overbearing at times.

Very true observation. That is why everybody needs to "gently" remind each other.

BobbyTerhune:
I don't think anyone has tried to throw business to a competitor,

Most times these active links were never intended to harm Logos or divert business away -certainly not in this particular thread. But as MJ has stated, there have been blatant actions in the forums before.....

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:23 PM

Matthew C Jones:
But the Feds are quick to point out when the 55 mph speed limit kicked in, the highway traffic fatalities were significantly lowered.

Well.... there was also a culture change. My eldest brother had two accidents driving a truck before he was 6 (no he wasn't on county roads). I was 10 before I  drove a tractor on country roads. And most boys were 12 (generally) or 14 (legally) before they drove wheat trucks into town. Coming to think of it, it was the adults who got in accidents. You're right.Big Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:38 PM

Joan Korte:
Here's my story.  I worked in a women's state correctional facility for three years.  My job was to enforce the rules.  I only lasted three years because enforcing rules made me unpopular with the residents and also with my counterparts since I enforced them more to the letter than to the spirit in which they were written.  Other officers were more leniant, offered copious instances of good will, had longer careers and even the residents liked them.  

 

Joan,, First I have to tell you I resigned church eldership because I found it a difficult task to deal with church members who were in rebellious disobedience to God. You are right to suggest the enforcement needs to be tempered with mercy. But your example just begs to be examined here. The "residents" were placed in the correctional facility because they refused to comply with the accepted rules of society. They believed they were exempt from the rules or thought the rules were unfair. Of course the "residents" are not going to like anyone who enforces rules. You said your job was to enforce the rules. You & I did the right thing when resigning our positions since we were having difficulty carrying out our responsibilities. But I'm fairly sure that if any guards ever smuggled contraband into the facility, it was the guards who were popular with the "residents."  Remember God did not bend the rules about touching the Ark of the Covenant. The death penalty was still imposed

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:43 PM

MJ. Smith:
Coming to think of it, it was the adults who got in accidents. You're right.Big Smile

If Logos would limit the posting of active links to the children we would only have to worry about Pet Society, Club Penguin and Wonder Pets.

Come to think of it, that would probably be acceptable!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:48 PM

Matthew C Jones:
But your example just begs to be examined here. The "residents" were placed in the correctional facility because they refused to comply with the accepted rules of society. They believed they were exempt from the rules or thought the rules were unfair. Of course the "residents" are not going to like anyone who enforces rules. You said your job was to enforce the rules. You & I did the right thing when resigning our positions since we were having difficulty carrying out our responsibilities. But I'm fairly sure that if any guards ever smuggled contraband into the facility, it was the guards who were popular with the "residents."

This is not my experience from prison ministry although women felons are a bit of a different group than their male counterparts

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 12 2010 5:57 PM

I hate to tell you this, but the discussion of your experiences in correctional facilities violates the rules of the forum. Surprise

"Please keep your discussions focused on Logos Bible Software: our software, products, websites, company, tools, etc."

 

Big Smile Yes, this was another joke.

 

 

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