No NEW Journals - why not?

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Posts 3935
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 8:28 PM

What about including more journals as part of base packages? With the presumed impending release of 8, it is likely too late to tweak those to include more Journals, but perhaps for 9, that could be a solution.

OR perhaps you've already thought of this and are including the important journals in the relevant base packages to the extent you could.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Oct 25 2018 10:07 PM

If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face.

About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times.

I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation.

I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.

Posts 1240
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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 12:46 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources

Until now I haven't "engaged" with this thread (I have followed it), yet over 2700 of the resources in my library are journals (~35%).

Posts 639
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 1:54 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face.

About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times.

...

I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.

Very interesting Phil

The thought/phrase comes to mind - 'the silent majority' - who often only make their voices heard in elections. Or in context - in purchasing choices.

Clearly one of the issues here is the complexity of the situation. It isn't just one of simple supply and demand - or value and cost. There is consumer confidence in the regularity and consistency of supply, the purchase contract terms, the size of bundles, whether they only come cumulative or as discrete updates, the right titles (journals), academic or more general in treatment, the list of factors goes on and on.

I do believe that the costs of production (based on the current tagging strategy) are the crucial issue. If this can be resolved someway the remaining factors will be easier to deal with.

Shalom

Posts 5737
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 2:02 AM

Wow! Maybe you can run the same stats for the CARTA resource request.  I’m sure not many people are willing to buy, even though it looks like there’s a huge interest, but in reality there’s only a handful who are interested.

DAL

Posts 560
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 3:58 AM

Of course I cannot speak for everyone, but for me, I am fairly new to journals (Dec. 2017)- but I have been amazed at the usefulness they have proven in my academic studies.  And it makes sense, as scholars cant be expected to write a book on every subject that is out there, so journals are the best avenue to address topics, and interact with other scholars and ideas that are sweeping the land.  With this said, I can see how having the most recent journals available is desirable in order to stay current on those topics.  And although I can see it would be nice to have them plugged into my Passage Guide, or whatever other guide... as long as I can run a search on a topic of interest, and it search those journals to populate the findings, I am very happy and satisfied with that- as I guess that is only way I know how to do it anyway.  And if you tell me that the journals can be cheaper, and quicker to get by utilizing them in that fashion- I am definitely voting for that option.

And like others have said, I would prefer the top journals in the field, and not have to buy a bunch of tier 2 and 3 journals to get the tier 1s.

Posts 1484
John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 5:31 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources

Until now I haven't "engaged" with this thread (I have followed it), yet over 2700 of the resources in my library are journals (~35%).

I'm in the same boat. Had I known my engagement mattered more than my money (considering I've purchased every journal offering in Logos over the last several years), I would have been more vocal. That said, I havent disagreed with much of anything the top contributors have said. If there were an "Amen" button to pound, I would have pounded it every time...and likey seen as more active. 

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Posts 4823
doc | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 5:37 AM

John Kight:

Reuben Helmuth:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources

Until now I haven't "engaged" with this thread (I have followed it), yet over 2700 of the resources in my library are journals (~35%).

I'm in the same boat. Had I known my engagement mattered more than my money (considering I've purchased every journal offering in Logos over the last several years), I would have been more vocal. That said, I havent disagreed with much of anything the top contributors have said. If there were an "Amen" button to pound, I would have pounded it every time...and likey seen as more active. 

I think that will be true of a lot of people John.  Journals are important, but they have not engaged directly in the conversation because what they would say has already been said.  The way the leaders at FL think though, you have to engage, add your votes to uservoice, post on the thread your views even if they mirror others etc. if we as customers are to be heard at all.

Posts 495
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 5:49 AM

Mark:

Bobby, thanks for your contribution.  I think the problems have been well stated on the thread.  The question is how to move forward, and it appears that FL is seemingly interested in ideas to resolve the issues.  As I have mentioned, some good ideas have already been made on this thread. Some of those ideas:

1. Publish the Journals (or particular journals) with no special tagging...Ebook standard (this can be preferable than getting them from another source that also would not have tagging or as a separate pdf)

2. Publish the journals fully tagged...the works (I think, however, this is why they are languishing in pre pub....there is not enough interest for the price)

3. Publish a subset of journals well-tagged in a timely manner, but not all the journals FL currently offers.

4. If the best you can offer short term is what Galaxie offered with only the functionality they offered in Logos and nothing else, then start with that so we can get the current journals.  In other words, you were too ambitious adding so many journals and bundling them together is large packages.  Start again with the original journals Galaxie offered and build a base again.  Slowly add new small packages of specific journals.  But start somewhere with journals that clearly would sell.

5. Better communication is needed.  FL needs to commit (if they truly are interested in Journals) to regular updates, whether that is quarterly or something like that.  Much of the frustration was and is avoidable if there is regular updated communication. This has been mentioned so many times on this thread.

6.  The current pricing is actually affordable for those who have previous editions to the Journals.  But for newbies, the current pricing is not realistic in these bundles.  Much better to break up the bundles, find out what the majority of people actually want and sell those journals at market prices.

These are some of the suggestions I have seen on this thread.

Mark,

I have not posted very much on this issue, but I assure you that Journals are very important to me. Of the options you have listed, I really only want the second option. My hope was that if we could get "all" the back issues updated and tagged, especially JETS, that the future volumes fully tagged would be more affordable since they would not be such a big chunk at one time.

I really am concerned that if we do the other options, those second tier journals would never make it back thru the prepub process to get fully tagged at a later time (years).

I am in favor of any option that moves us forward, but already the magazine "Christianity Today" has issues with all pictures included and in prepub production all the other issues will have all images removed. "Christian History" Magazine has the first fifty issues with images and 73 issues with no images. All users lost tremendous value in the lost pictures and Christian art work under the same thinking as we are using for journals.

I appreciated Phil's observation about the number of pages in journals and the cost per page that we have have been paying for them. It would seem that the only viable option to lower cost is to reduce something - quality or quantity. I don't want to turn journals into Faithlife ebooks.

Posts 3935
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 6:20 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources

Until now I haven't "engaged" with this thread (I have followed it), yet over 2700 of the resources in my library are journals (~35%).


2531 journals out of 17k+ resources.



doc:

John Kight:

Reuben Helmuth:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources

Until now I haven't "engaged" with this thread (I have followed it), yet over 2700 of the resources in my library are journals (~35%).

I'm in the same boat. Had I known my engagement mattered more than my money (considering I've purchased every journal offering in Logos over the last several years), I would have been more vocal. That said, I havent disagreed with much of anything the top contributors have said. If there were an "Amen" button to pound, I would have pounded it every time...and likey seen as more active. 

I think that will be true of a lot of people John.  Journals are important, but they have not engaged directly in the conversation because what they would say has already been said.  The way the leaders at FL think though, you have to engage, add your votes to uservoice, post on the thread your views even if they mirror others etc. if we as customers are to be heard at all.



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Posts 1789
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 7:24 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation.

I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.

I am not surprised by this at all.

Phil, surely you can organize a survey of ALL your customers to discern clearly what the interest really is.  It would not surprise us on this thread if the interest in high.  If it is not, then FL will know what to do.  IF it is high (as we all suspect), then FL needs to see how to capitalize on the interest and put together a plan to market Journals that will benefit customers and also turn a profit for FL.

Posts 562
Dave Thawley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 7:36 AM

Mark:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation.

I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.

I am not surprised by this at all.

Phil, surely you can organize a survey of ALL your customers to discern clearly what the interest really is.  It would not surprise us on this thread if the interest in high.  If it is not, then FL will know what to do.  IF it is high (as we all suspect), then FL needs to see how to capitalize on the interest and put together a plan to market Journals that will benefit customers and also turn a profit for FL.

This sounds like a great idea . It would give Faithlife direct knowledge of what their customer base really wants :-) 

Trying to be as noble as a Berean , Acts 17:11

Posts 1789
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 7:53 AM

Nathan Parker:

Here's how I work with journals in Logos:

1. I generally run a heading:searchtermhere OR largetext:searchtermhere when I need to locate a major subject.

Example: heading:"spiritual death" OR largetext:"spiritual death"

2. I generally run a <Bible = Verse Reference> or a <Bible ~ Verse Reference> to locate a Bible passage, although I generally combine either <Bible = Verse Reference> or <Bible ~ Verse Reference> with NEAR searchtermhere. If NEAR doesn't work well, I can use WITHIN x WORDS to be more precise.

Example: <Bible = Genesis 2:17> NEAR death

3. I also created a collection of all my journals (everything in my library with type:Journal. If there are some resources you want that contain articles but aren't using the type:Journal, you can tag them as Journal and include AND mytag:Journal). I added the ability for this collection to be searched in the guides, so it still allows me to search journals from the guides, even without the additional tagging.

Nathan, this was a great help to me.  Thanks for posting how you work with Journals

Posts 67
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 7:57 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

If engagement in this thread is a proxy for interest in journal resources, it may illustrate one of the challenges we face.

About 80 people have participated in the discussion over the last two years, spanning 582 posts and 30 pages. About 20 people have posted more than 5 times.

Hi Phil,

I own 2,154 journals, have been subscribed to this thread from the beginning to receive an email every time someone posts, and have ordered the pre-pubs for MJB 4.1 and the Galaxie TJL. I did not realize that comments on this forum meant as much as these other actions or else I would have commented frequently. As others have said, many posting on this thread have rightly spelled out the situation and possible solutions.

I am a seminary student and the director of a ministry for a large congregation. It seems to me that journals fall into the category of required and necessary for Logos to offer as the leader in serious Bible software, regardless of what has to be done to make it happen. I have been a Logos user since Bible college in 1995-96 when it came on three CD-ROMS. The current issues with Logos seem to revolve around poor/changing/conflicting communication and way too many irons in the fire for your staff to possibly be able to focus on anything with excellence. I feel for you guys brother, I think you're doing the best you possibly can with what you've been asked to do. But at some point someone needs to ask whether FL is going to do 100 things poorly or 10 things better than anyone in the world.

Shalom,

Matthew 

Posts 619
Jonathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 8:41 AM

Matthew:

But at some point someone needs to ask whether FL is going to do 100 things poorly or 10 things better than anyone in the world.

👆 This. This is exactly my feelings from the begin of this ill conceived plan to move away from Galaxie production to Logos production. We were told things would be better and that Logos could do better on their own. Many of us were pretty sure we would end up here.

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Posts 551
Bill Shewmaker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 8:42 AM

When I was doing some graduate work, I utilized my journals collection quite often. Now that I am not actively pursuing further graduate level research, my interest in the journals has diminished considerably.

I would favor a yearly update with a "synopsis" of each journal's articles with an option to buy a single issue of that particular journal (or even some division, i.e., quarterly, semi-annual, etc.).

Posts 298
Jerry Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 9:28 AM

Being part of the 

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation
, research is vital to biblical studies and current journals are essential to research! Logos is our team's go-to tool for research and having "current" journals access inside Logos is premium! Because of Logos' excellent searching abilities, journals with less tagging is totally acceptable! Please get current theological journals up to speed!

Posts 233
Charlene | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 9:29 AM

Matthew:
The current issues with Logos seem to revolve around poor/changing/conflicting communication and way too many irons in the fire for your staff to possibly be able to focus on anything with excellence. I feel for you guys brother, I think you're doing the best you possibly can with what you've been asked to do. But at some point someone needs to ask whether FL is going to do 100 things poorly or 10 things better than anyone in the world.

Yes Sad

Posts 708
Lew Worthington | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 10:07 AM

I typically don't respond to this thread because I don't want to add with meaningless or repetitive chatter, but this was interesting research Phil presented. But if postings can be regarded in any way as votes of any kind, then journals are VERY important to me. Furthermore, top journals are much more important than lots of journals, as others have said. Finally, I understand the issues of rights to certain top journals, but I won't give up hoping.

Lew

Posts 411
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Oct 26 2018 10:12 AM

This is a regular thread I check (but don't actively engage in), specifically because I completed my undergrad last year and have started my Master's program this year. I subscribe monthly to Galaxie. Currently, of the 7,771 resources I own, 2,181 of them are type:journal. Having access to Master Journal 3.1 was tremendously helpful in my thesis on Family Discipleship and Ministry, in addition to some OT Studies for other papers I wrote. I referenced my Galaxie subscription only rarely, having journals in Logos was just easier.

I am curious to see how things will change in my Master's program. Having access to ATLA places more journal research within reach and only time will tell how much I will utilize my journals in Logos. I have placed a prepub for 4.1 (upgrade is something like $70) and if finances were better, I would go after the Galaxie Bundle and drop my subscription.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I'm not suggesting there isn't interest beyond this group (I know there is; our Pre-Pub numbers demonstrate that). But I was a little surprised to learn that there's a relatively small group of folks who are really engaged in the journals conversation.

I don't think we should conclude too much from this, but I thought it was an interesting observation worth passing along.

It may be helpful to reach out to the Journal Purchasing community that is not on the forums, especially if you are looking for video conferencing input. I remember a survey asking about CARTA was floating around that I completed. The same could be done for Journals.  Especially if there is a good quantity of interest beyond the forumites. Maybe even reaching into the Academic partnerships Logos has with different Seminaries that distribute the software to seminary students (I think DTS does this?) and seeing how they use or could use resources like the Journal Bundles. Who knows, maybe giving Institutional Access to Seminarians through a bulk subscription model could work for those institutions/students requiring Logos to be a part of their Seminary Education. Journal Access seems to be most desirable for students and faculty members of Seminaries.

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
ournals are especially challenging, because they're dense, long, technical, and require special tagging. Yet they're also the lowest priced category of resource we sell, by a long shot. The average journal resource (which is often 3 or 4 journal issues) can be 800–1,000 pages. Yet the average price per journal resource is $.50/$1 (depending on which bundle you buy)! As you can see, these factors add up to make producing journals a challenge

Understanding this is very helpful - Logo's business model has to stay profitable to be sustainable. Maybe quality over quantity and offering things unbundled at a higher price:issue cost may yield better results (IE: selling JETS alone is probably cheaper than jumping into a $1800 Journal Bundle.) Not a revolutionary idea, I know. I dropped the money to buy the Journal for Biblical Counseling as a standalone (had to, it's not part of a bundle) and that cost more than me upgrading to 4.1 for just one set of resources ($120 for JBC vs $70 for numerous sets of Journals in 4.1).

Mark:
6.  The current pricing is actually affordable for those who have previous editions to the Journals.  But for newbies, the current pricing is not realistic in these bundles.  Much better to break up the bundles, find out what the majority of people actually want and sell those journals at market prices.

👍🏽 I know it seems that older commetary sets make their way into Base Packages, maybe the same can be done with older Journal Sets, at least (anything older than 1930 or 1940?) Even selling them by time-periods or decades could be more helpful.  

I hope my input is helpful, I have not engaged too much simply because I agree with what is already been said and don't want to add redundant thoughts to the conversation.

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