Logos need to do something about Logos

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 5:50 PM

Sean:

Sean:
the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
 

Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints? From all the posts by users with stars by their names, you'd think so. 

I agree, and no it is not official. Just my observation and opinion. I think I even stated "I could be wrong."

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 8:05 PM

Let's look at it from another angle.



David Medina:

I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used.

The available resources may be a factor here. On my computer, I immediately get mishpat on mouse-over:

On right-click, I immediately get a read-out of relevant entries:

David Medina:

Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor. 

I am no pastor and I make my living as a filmmaker and photographer. What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X...

The other applications David names would grind to a halt on an I/O bottleneck. Consequently they have all been written to aggressively populate memory. David's machine has 24GB. That is quite a lot of memory.

If Logos can be automatically or manually set to aggressively populate memory (Large Memory Caching as a Program Setting?) I am sure even with a physical HDD the lags will be minimized.

Posts 26
Phil Tuften | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 8:23 PM

David et als,

I run Mc 2014 with 128GB SSD and current system software.  I run Both Anglican and Standard Platinum plus some others.  Space is getting cramped.  

I did the following:

1) Delete (save off my computer) all information I don't regularly use.  This being all the courses, Targums and commentaries that I do not use.  This can be done easily, and they can also be downloaded easily.  By taking them off your machine, they are still on the servers at Logos.  This means I still have access to the information if and when I need it.  To do this open your library, at the left of your screen for a resource say the NIV Bible, you will see a circle with three dots beside it.  Click on these dots, one of the options is remove from device, click this and the resource is removed but can be redownloaded again by hitting the three dots and choosing the alternative you want.

2) Invest in an accessory drive, transfer all my docs, pdf, spreadsheets that I am not using onto it.  Only leave the bare minimum on my machine that I have to use.

3) I also run the A companies software, this is for my languages.  Any resources that are duplicated I tend to save off my main machine.

4) I don't use photoshop, because of price; and even if I did would not use it at the same time as Logos or Accordance.  All these eat up memory, especially if you edit big files.

5) Use a memory clearing program like Washing Machine or other program to regularly clean up your machine.

I have no problems but need a bigger Mac within a year or two as I want to do photo editing, but not at the same time as Logos stuff.  Although not ordained, I do occasional preaching and pastoral work.

I don't have a problem doing by following the above.

Hope this is helpful

Leaving you in God's Care and Grace

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jun 3 2020 9:00 PM

Phil Tuften:

I run Mc 2014 with 128GB SSD and current system software.  I run Both Anglican and Standard Platinum plus some others.  Space is getting cramped.

2014 Mac? Check this out.

Posts 152
Dave Colclough | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 7:19 AM

It looks like Logos have updated their recommended system spec since last I looked. Now it includes a 512GB NVMe SSD with a minimum of 60GB free space. https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software

Posts 752
David Wanat | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 7:30 AM

I know that when I got my replacement laptop (I used to have a 2013 rMBP With 8gb memory and a SSD)), I used their recommended as my minimum because I wanted to avoid any slowdowns. My current machine runs Logos much better.

You mentioned having a Mac earlier in this thread. One thing I’ve noticed from my own experience is that the Apple cost for something is excessive compared with the PC cost. So that’s why I went back to PC, even though I’d have been happy staying with Mac.

WIN 10 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM

Ultimate: Verbum | Diamond: Orthodox  | Gold: Eastern Rite, Ordinariate, Anglican | Silver: Baptist, Lutheran, Messianic, Methodist, Pentecostal, Reformed, SDA, Standard

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 11:33 AM

David Wanat:
You mentioned having a Mac earlier in this thread. One thing I’ve noticed from my own experience is that the Apple cost for something is excessive compared with the PC cost. So that’s why I went back to PC, even though I’d have been happy staying with Mac.

Years ago remember comparable hardware in a Dell laptop being about half the price of a MacBook Pro. Today, PC still has more hardware configuration choices. For grins, looked for an Intel Core i9 laptop with 4K UHD display for comparison with 16" MacBook Pro.

ASUS ZenBook Pro 15 Laptop with Innovative Screenpad, 15.6” UHD 4K Touch, Intel Core i9-8950HK, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, 16GB DDR4 RAM, 512GB PCIe SSD, Backlit KB, Windows 10 Pro, UX580GE-XB74T => https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B07CXW742M is $ 1,999 used & $ 2,699 new

Amazon renewed Apple MacBook Pro, 2019 Model, 15-inch, Intel core i9 Processor, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Storage, MV912LL/A - Space Gray => https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B083Z22L3H is $ 1,978 that costs less than $ 2,289 Apple Refurbished => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G0XZVLL/A/Refurbished-16-inch-MacBook-Pro-24GHz-8-core-Intel-Core-i9-with-Retina-display-Space-Gray whose new price of $ 2,699 (with 9th Generation Intel Core i9 while ASUS ZenBook Pro 15 laptop is 8th Generation Intel Core i9) Do like ASUS having a touch screen that Apple does not have.

- - - 

MSI GE75 Raider 10SGS-222 17.3" 300Hz 3ms Gaming Laptop Intel Core i9-10980HK RTX 2080 Super 32GB 1TB NVMe SSD Win10 VR Ready => https://www.amazon.com/MSI-Raider-10SGS-222-Gaming-i9-10980HK/dp/B0862DKTZ8 is $ 2,999

Apple Refurbished 16-inch MacBook Pro 2.3GHz 8-core Intel Core i9 with Retina display- Space Gray 32 GB Ram, 1 TB NVMe SSD => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G0Y07LL/A/Refurbished-16-inch-MacBook-Pro-23GHz-8-core-Intel-Core-i9-with-Retina-display-Space-Gray is $ 2,719 with New being $ 3,199 that is 6.6 % more than MSI GE75 Raider 10SGS-222 (MSI has 10th Generation Intel Core i9 while Apple has 9th Generation Intel Core i9, but 16" MacBook Pro screen is 3072x1900 retina display while MSI 17.3" is 1920x1080)

MSI Creator 17 A10SFS-254 (i7-10875H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVMe SSD, RTX2070 Super 8GB, 17.3" 4K UHD HDR1000 Mini LED, Windows 10 Pro) Creative Professional Laptop => https://www.amazon.com/Creator-17-A10SFS-254-i7-10875H-Professional/dp/B086PPVTS1 is $ 2,999 with retina display of 3840x2160 (in stock estimate is July 31, 2020)

- - -

While looking for an Intel Core i9, noticed Dell XPS 15 laptop 15.6", 4K UHD InfinityEdge Touch, 9th Gen Intel Core i7-9750H, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 4GB GDDR5, 1TB SSD storage, 16GB RAM, XPS7590-7565SLV-PUS => https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Touch-Intel-NVIDIA-GeForce/dp/B07T4HGF79 for $1,899 that has a slightly scratched used one for $ 1,455.07 (personal preference is 17.3" display that is 11 % larger than 15.6" so everything is enlarged 11%, which is a bit easier to read using older eyes).

- - -

For another grin, looked for an all-in-one computer having an Intel Core i9 to compare with 2019 model 27" iMac 5K

Lenovo IdeaCentre AIO 27" Touch 2TB SSD 32GB RAM Extreme (Intel Core i9-9900K CPU Turbo Boost to 5.00GHz, 32 GB RAM, 2 TB SSD, 27" QHD Touchscreen, Win 10) Desktop All in One PC Computer A540-27ICB => https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaCentre-i9-9900K-Touchscreen-A540-27ICB/dp/B087WKRMK3 is $ 2,899 with resolution of 2560x1440 that is one/4th of Apple's 5120x2880 retina display

New 27" iMac 5K build to order with 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9-9900K with 32GB Ram, 2 TB SSD is $ 3,999 (so refurbished would be $ 3,399). Ram in 27" iMac has four slots that customer can easily change (up to 128 GB Ram), which is noticeably less expensive than Apple's Ram.

New OptiPlex 7770 All-in-One 27" 4K UHD 3840x2170 Non-Touch Display A Perfect Productivity Desktop 9th Gen i9-9900 up to 4.9GHz GTX 1050 Wireless Keyboard & Mouse (2TB SSD|32GB RAM|Win 10 PRO) => https://www.amazon.com/OptiPlex-7770-All-One-Desktop/dp/B07VMTSBY1 is $ 3,657.77 (4K resolution is 3840x2170 that has less pixels compared to Apple's 5120x2880 retina)

Refurbished 2019 iMac 27" 5K having 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9 with 8 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, & Radeon Pro 580x for $ 2,549 => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/GMVTBLL/A/Refurbished-27-inch-iMac-37GHz-6-core-Intel-Core-i5-with-Retina-5K-display

FYI: Geekbench Single Core CPU benchmark for 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9 being 1244 (#1) => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks

HyperX Impact 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 CL16 SODIMM (Kit of 2) Laptop Memory HX426S16IBK2/64 => https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08492TQGQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00 is $ 287.99 (remove Apple Ram due to CL timing)

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 11093
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 12:19 PM

Sean:
What falls out of the conversation every time this is brought up: Logos is slow at EVERYTHING, even at tasks that should not be so demanding. Populating drop down lists from Tools takes FOREVER. Switching layouts almost always makes Windows hang for a bit--even if it's a small layout! These tasks don't (or, shouldn't) require "hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes." Switching to the home page (the use of which I've totally abandoned with L8) shouldn't take a solid 30+ seconds.

Well, it's page 3, and the Logosians are now shopping for David's new computer. FL has helpfully put David's hardware in the inadaquate category. All that remains is for David to simply admit the software is fine .... it's David that's the problem. That be page 4. Go, Logosians, go!

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 295
Pastor Michael Huffman | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 12:22 PM

David Medina:

My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho  display anything. 

I am not a Logo Power user. I am not a pastor nor a seminary student. I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide. 

I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless. But that is probably me. Ys, I have taken seminars and they just tell ou what the feature is used for and that it is. 

I think Logos is a very bloated app beyond and I do not have a large library way below platinum.

Questions.

If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources? Elimination collections?

Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer. 

I feel your pain. I have been using Logos since 1997 and I am a Pastor, Professor of Theology and Greek, so I enjoy the original language features Logos has. I have a MacBook Pro with an SSD and I noticed that some of the features were causing the program to run slower than normal (after an update, of course), so I called customer support and was told to turn these features off, so I did and the program ran great. 

Problem, to which I informed the representative, "why do I need to turn off features that Logos offers (some of which I have to pay for through Logos Connect) in order to get the program to work correctly? Yes, I agree, Logos needs to work on Logos. The sermon Editor is a great concept that I use but things could be faster and consistent. 

The Canvas tool, is the glitter to which you refer. It needs to go away and the "brain power" that was used in creating that needed to be used to make the software faster. The Canvas tool, is glitchy and very difficult to use and pretty much worthless. 

I have told Logos for years to fixed what you have instead of creating more features. Now, I know that they have to great new feature to keep up with Accordance, but also work on the speed, There is no need that Logos can run so good at times and then so bad at others and no need that Accordance runs so fast and Logos runs so much slower. If I did not have so much invested in Logos I, too, would have probably already switch. It is a great software, with great features and potential, but Logos needs to work on Logos.

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 12:43 PM

Denise:

Well, it's page 3, and the Logosians are now shopping for David's new computer. FL has helpfully put David's hardware in the inadaquate category. All that remains is for David to simply admit the software is fine .... it's David that's the problem. That be page 4. Go, Logosians, go!

Denise, David is in no way the problem. It is just a bad hand he has been dealt. Just the facts... 

Those that are advising are trying to work through other options since the one solution that really works for the OP currently and  probably for the future does not  exist. The OP has the right to vent and feel frustrated. I personally  don't feel anyone is trying to shut the OP up. Maybe it is just perceptions... there is enough animosity in the world maybe I am just thinking the best of their intentions. And yours as well, you are really clever and witty and I mostly enjoy your posts.Smile

Posts 11093
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 1:11 PM

John Fidel:
Denise, David is in no way the problem. It is just a bad hand he has been dealt. Just the facts... 

Well, of course David's not the issue. We're going on over a decade of 'slow' now. Remember the autumn leaves falling in 2009, as 'slow' was introduced?

David is 'bad-hand' #432 (made that up ... I don't want to even guess how many pastors trying to concentrate on the word of God, are instead tinkering with Logos to see if it will go any faster). 

But I notice you didn't mention Logos. That's on-target. We're past page 1.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 2:45 PM

I'm sorry you're having a poor experience with Logos. We regularly have to make hard choices about what we're going to do and not do and what we're going to optimize for. We tend to optimize for breadth: breadth of platforms, users, denominations, languages, library/content size and mediums, apps, etc.

  • Platforms: Windows, Mac, the web, iOS/iPadOS, and Android
  • Users: pastors, lay leaders, scholars, professors, students, and anyone looking for a serious tool for Bible study
  • Denominations: evangelicals, Catholics, and Orthodox users of a variety of stripes
  • Languages: English, Spanish, German, Korean, Portuguese, and Mandarin Chinese (Traditional and Simplified) speakers with French in the works and others on the roadmap
  • Library/content size and mediums: books, video courses, audiobooks, media, etc.
  • Apps: Logos, Verbum, Faithlife Ebooks, etc.

We believe that this optimization toward breadth allows us to best fulfill our vision to increase biblical literacy and accessibility for every Christian around the world.

But in order to achieve that breadth, we have to make some trade-offs. One of those trade-offs is that we optimize for SSDs over HDDs, for example. Logos 8 was much faster at indexing, but only for SSD users.

I'm sorry that Logos isn't meeting your needs well right now. We'll keep working to serve you and as many people as we can and consider the right trade-offs to make regarding older hardware, access to the internet, internet speed, etc.

You might have a better experience on the web app, where more of the performance heavy lifting happens on the server rather than on your local machine. We still intended to bring more of the desktop's capabilities there, while keeping a focus on leveraging the web for scale and performance in a way that we can't on desktop.

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 6:31 PM

Thanks for responding, Phil.

Just a suggestion: If Logos can be automatically or manually set to aggressively populate memory (Large Memory Caching as a Program Setting?) I am sure even with a physical HDD the lags will be minimized if RAM and CPU are up to the task.

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LogosEmployee

Lee:
If Logos can be automatically or manually set to aggressively populate memory (Large Memory Caching as a Program Setting?)

You've mentioned this several times, but I haven't been able to find a good definition of what this might mean: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Large+Memory+Caching%22 doesn't seem to have relevant results. Can you provide a definition?

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jun 4 2020 6:45 PM

Sorry, I made up the term. It just means a setting for Logos to aggressively populate memory, including loading substantial portions, even the entire index into RAM. It could be done automatically, or manually (opt-out, or opt-in).

I thought of this since David's machine already runs Photoshop and video NLE applications well. Disk I/O is his only bottleneck. Those applications often populate memory very aggressively. Example of fine-grain memory usage settings

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 7:59 PM

lol 

Posts 160
David Medina | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 6 2020 8:05 PM

I went over my library which has over 3700 resources. Probably at least 3000 are not relevant for me and are taking space and probably lowering performance. So I have uninstalled a LOT of stuff that I know I won't use. It seems like it has improved performance. 

Posts 2463
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 7 2020 3:01 PM

I still have an old 2012 Mac Mini that uses a HDD. Setting it to open without any layout and without running any updates on opening works wonders over the factory preset. It's running the latest Catalina which is vastly better for Logos than the previous OS. My library is enormous, but that really only gets in the way with updating/indexing. I might get an SSD in it still, but everything went on the backburner with the COVID roadblock

It's a snail compared to my Win laptop, but it's fine for many simple chores. And I use the same settings on my faster machine too. Starting with a clean desk in Logos is much like a regular clean desk. You decide what to do first rather than assume you must deal with what you looked at last. It's in the layouts if you need it.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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LogosEmployee

Lee:

Sorry, I made up the term. It just means a setting for Logos to aggressively populate memory, including loading substantial portions, even the entire index into RAM. It could be done automatically, or manually (opt-out, or opt-in).

On Windows, memory-mapped file I/O is used extensively to accomplish this. (Use a tool like RAMMap or VMMap to investigate/demonstrate. I don't know enough about the macOS virtual memory system to comment on how effective it is on that platform.)

Posts 2588
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 7 2020 6:32 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
On Windows, memory-mapped file I/O is used extensively to accomplish this. (Use a tool like RAMMap or VMMap to investigate/demonstrate. I don't know enough about the macOS virtual memory system to comment on how effective it is on that platform.)

I assume you mean that in Windows index is already aggressively loaded into memory. On a PC which has 64GB RAM, with only Logos running in an extensive layout, memory usage hovers around 550MB according to Task Manager. A power user may wish to have more aggressive memory usage (for reduction of disk I/O).

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
I don't know enough about the macOS virtual memory system to comment on how effective it is on that platform.

The same strategies could probably be used to minimize disk I/O. AFAIK Photoshop has very similar settings on both Windows and Mac platforms to minimize disk I/O.

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