Logos need to do something about Logos
Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor.
I am no pastor and I make my living as a filmmaker and photographer. What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X why Logos 8 runs painfully slow. As far as I can remember, my experience will Logos has always been terrible.
It should not have to be that every time Logos comes out with a new version we seem to have to buy the latest most powerful computer just to have Logs run decently. It is frustrating that after spending 1,000s on resources on Logos I can not enjoy them because it is insanely inefficient and SLOW. I always ending shutting down the program and run Accordance to be able to get done what I am trying to do. If I would have known this I would have spent my money on Accordance resources and not Logos.
And today was the last drop. I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Sorry Logos, you exhausted my patience. And that is too bad because Logos is a good concept with many great features. But if you cannot use them because the app is too slow then what is the use.
Stop trying to be clever and just take all that useless glitter and give us an app that runs efficiently and fast on any computer. I think I may have just upgraded for the last time.
And do not get me started in the mobile app. Please, stop trying to show off cleverness and do the app right.
Comments
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David Medina said:
Stop trying to be clever and just take all that useless glitter
We each have our own definition of "useless glitter" -- what do you see as "useless glitter"?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Whatever thing that is not necessary and slows down the program. That is what I consider glitter. There must be way to cut dwn the fat and make Logos more efficient and fast insted of depending that their users have the lastest and greatest technology.
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Sorry for the frustration, David!
David Medina said:I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Here are three different approaches to quickly see what Hebrew word was used for justice:
1. Use the right-click context menu. Right click on the word "justice," then you can see the manuscript, lemma, and root form of the Hebrew word that was used.
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2. (Open and) use the Information tool. Hover (or click depending on your Information tool settings) to see information about the word you selected.
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3. (Open and) use the bible's reverse interlinear pane. Click on the word justice to see the corresponding word in the reverse interlinear.
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(Make sure the bible translation you are using has a reverse interlinear, or it won't be this easy to see what Hebrew word is used.)
Each of these approaches should be very quick (instant). If you're seeing much slower behavior, please enable and post logs (using the paperclip icon to attach them) to your reply, and someone should be able to help identify what might be slowing down the program.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I've watched Logos over the years (as everyone else). The primary discussion is 'how slow' (I don't recall any varients of 'how fast)'. Most solutions are either hardware (SSD), or stop using a glitz (feature), or at least watching out for the truly bad ones (collections).
I remember in early Molassas4, users pointed out pointless cycles ... which were refined over time. Then refining the indexer. Then the app-opening. But I wonder 'exactly' why snappy seems a few hundred miles on the other side of the state (Spokane). Is it basically the paint-base?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
Whatever thing that is not necessary and slows down the program. That is what I consider glitter.
The problem is that what is not necessary depends upon what work you do ... While there are features I will never use, I don't see features that are not useful for some portion of the market. I see features that are underutilized because they are incomplete or buggy. You really need to be concerned only with features that conceivably interfere with the performance of features you do use. In my own use, the slowdowns are all related to the building of the drop-down select list. And while I absolutely hate waiting what is at times literally MINUTES to build the list, I understand I put up with it because of choices made to shorten the start up time and minimize the memory requirements for features not used.
That is why I am genuinely interested in the specifics of what you think is "not necessary", "fat", "glitter" . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
I remember in early Molassas4, users pointed out pointless cycles ... which were refined over time. Then refining the indexer. Then the app-opening. But I wonder 'exactly' why snappy seems a few hundred miles on the other side of the state (Spokane). Is it basically the paint-base?
Denise, you have enough computer-savvy that I don't believe that you don't know what the Eastern Washington product is snappier than the Western Washington product. It has to do with the air flow ... the mountains screen everything valuable out of the air before it reaches Spokane so they build a straight forward, feature weak, performance strong product. ... well that's what it appears from research -- I don't use their product.
I suspect that the Logos resource drain comes from balancing the performance for
- users with very large libraries wishing to use numerous collections and/or filters and/or complex priority settings... any of collections, filters and prioritization can cause performance issues. Some competitors do not offer enough resources for this to become a problem. I've found work-arounds but would like FL to build in certain features that would limit my need for much of the prioritization and collections.
- a number of features depend upon going through a reverse interlinear to generate a response. Without knowing the data storage and code in detail, one can still make a decent estimate of the number of cycles required to take an indirect route. However, one can also see how this, in some implementation, is the only way to provide many of the features accessible through this tagging choice.
- in the same way that FL has a backlog of bug reports to clean up, I suspect that they also have a backlog of fine tuning of performance issues to get to -- features not polish appears to be their interest. Someone has suggested that my Stone-Campbell background is responsible for my obsession with gnawing at a problem until every portion is thoroughly vetted as accurate - logically and textually. I prefer to blame the Medieval disputatio model of education.
I suspect that the most effective path forward is one issue at a time ... pick a feature, a single feature, and mobilize the users to concentrate their error reporting, suggestions, and uservoice votes on that feature. When FL addresses it pick another feature ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Medina said:
Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor.
I have a 2013 Mac with 16GB of memory and don't have the problems that you are having. It actually runs quickly for me. Doing a original language lookup takes about a second for me. That is with 15 tabs open in Logos and 11 other programs running and Chrome with 6 tabs open. I do have 1TB SSD - I wonder if that is the difference?
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MJ. Smith said:
It has to do with the air flow ... the mountains screen everything valuable out of the air before it reaches Spokane so they build a straight forward, feature weak, performance strong product. ... well that's what it appears from research -- I don't use their product.
Well, having spent gobs of time at Moses Lake (and slamming on the brakes at Yakima for flag-lowering), I completely missed the air-less air. But you're right ... the big Z keeps them on the straight and narrow. No fancy-dancy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X why Logos 8 runs painfully slow.
Various programs have different performance bottlenecks. Logos is a database application with tremendous demand for storage speed (hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes). Solid State Disk (SSD) is much faster than Hard Disk (and highly recommended for Logos).
When using Logos online, network response time can affect Logos. Online includes syncing location change in resource so opening that resource on your mobile device goes to the same place. Sluggish network responsiveness slows down Logos (competing with video upload/download is a way to slow down Logos). If not need online stuff/sync, changing Program Setting for Use Internet to No results in application responding faster.
Thankful Logos & Verbum can be used at the same time. My demonstration account has an order total of $ 0.00 that includes Logos 8 Basic, Verbum 8 Basic, Logos 8 Academic Basic, Teach Them Diligently Library (free for one weekend last year), and Logos 7 Fundamentals gift from Logos 8 upgrade with subsequent coupon for Logos 8 Fundamentals. Thankful for demonstration account having usable Visual Filter subset ("less glitter") for speedier Bible Study (demonstration library uses 16 GB on macOS 10.15.5 compared to 135 GB for purchased library with every feature enabled). For more in-depth Bible Study (including commentary insights), purchased library is awesome (albeit speed challenged in spots).
David Medina said:And today was the last drop. I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used. I just wanted something so basic and simple but there was not away.
Using my demonstration library, opened Lexham English Bible (LEB) to Micah 6:8. Right Clicked on Justice, clicked lemma (ring icon), clicked LXHOTLEX to open "The Lexham Lexicon of the Hebrew Bible" in a new tab. Right clicked on Justice, hovered mouse over CDWBTHB (A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and Hebrew Bible) for pop-up to appear for mishpâṭ
David Medina said:And do not get me started in the mobile app. Please, stop trying to show off cleverness and do the app right.
Please help the development team understand what feels like "cleverness" and what a mobile app done right should be by posting your feedback in Logos 8 Mobile App forum (human developers are not mind readers so describing what hurts with repeatable steps is helpful).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I am not a Logo Power user. I am not a pastor nor a seminary student. I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide.
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless. But that is probably me. Ys, I have taken seminars and they just tell ou what the feature is used for and that it is.
I think Logos is a very bloated app beyond and I do not have a large library way below platinum.
Questions.
If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources? Elimination collections?
Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer.
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Various programs have different performance bottlenecks. Logos is a database application with tremendous demand for storage speed (hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes). Solid State Disk (SSD) is much faster than Hard Disk (and highly recommended for Logos).
I don't have an SSD. I don't mind that searches take time, and even indexing isn't that much of a bother any more. I have a slower (but not terribly so) computer, and I know its limitations.
What falls out of the conversation every time this is brought up: Logos is slow at EVERYTHING, even at tasks that should not be so demanding. Populating drop down lists from Tools takes FOREVER. Switching layouts almost always makes Windows hang for a bit--even if it's a small layout! These tasks don't (or, shouldn't) require "hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes." Switching to the home page (the use of which I've totally abandoned with L8) shouldn't take a solid 30+ seconds.
I run lots of other programs on my computer. Many are demanding. None perform as badly as Logos. Some of these issues should be fixable for people who have machines that aren't cutting edge. I have yet to see FaithLife take much efforts in that direction. I don't know how motivated they are, either, when so many people are eager to meet complaints such as this with the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
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For starters I would say Logos is sold with many books that most of us would not purchase in paper, never heard of or have little use for study. Iam pretty sure that the size of the library has to have an effect on the speed.
Anther one I can think is the Psalm thing.
I am no power user nor a pastor or seminary student. My use of Logos is to do Bible study and basic research of topics. I do not even use collections. My searches are very basic.
The problem I see is that Logos been slow is nothing new. Not even in 2013 when my computer was brand new or when I used a Mac Pro Logos fared any better. So when I speak of glitter I probably mean all that surface prettiness that they keep adding to Logos that makes you wonder if they care more about how Logos looks and how technologically advanced looks instead of making a priority that the App is a fast as it can possibly be.
Now I wonder if I delete all the excess books that came with the app if that would significally help Logos. Do you have any idea if that would help?
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Yes, using an SSD should help. But installing an SSD on my iMac is not an option at the moment. My point is that it should not depend from having an SSD for Logos to work properly.
I do have an Mac Book Pro 2015 with an SSD, but unfortunatelly Logo is also a drive space and it limited my use of my MacBook pro just for Logos. Still, the performance wasn't stellar.
I just wonder if I trim the fat of so many useless books (to me at least) that come with Logos if it would make any difference.
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Thanks Sean, you get what I am saying.
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David Medina said:
My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I have Logos on an internal HD because my library is too big for the internal SSD, however I don’t have to wait for the Information panel. (The only thing that is really slow for me is how long it takes a drop down to populate.)
Again, I don’t think it’s typical to wait, but without any logs, no one can tell you exactly what is slowing it down for you.
If you seriously want to try to resolve this, please don’t try random things like deleting “useless” resources.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Medina said:
My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I spent a decade before I started using the information panel - primarily to see the tagging. I am curious as to why it was so slow loading for you but I don't know enough about the parts I don't use to know how to track that down.
David Medina said:I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide.
I suspect there are a large number of users like you in this. I tend to use the Passage Guide a section at a time so other than knowing to open it with most sections closed, I can't be much help. But I suspect that FL could do some work to make sections load more efficiently.
David Medina said:I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless.
I flippingly call the heavy language support as "keeping the user busy doing things they don't understand so they don't accidentally find something that makes them think". But I understand this is critical to a large portion of the user base and is the foundation of many of the English features I enjoy.
David Medina said:Yes, I have taken seminars and they just tell you what the feature is used for and that it is.
I agree with you although I word it somewhat differently - they fail to teach you the foundation you need to actually use the feature or make the feature difficult to use. My personal target is semantic roles which I would use very heavily IF (a) the various places that show the roles would point you to the verb they are dependent on and (b) if the clause search analysis view worked correctly rather than being on their "known bug" list.
David Medina said:If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources?
I've found the new feature of leaving them in the cloud is well worth the effort of using ... I don't know how it affects performance but it certainly helps me focus on results that are relevant.
David Medina said:If I do any of the following will it have any effect? ... Elimination collections?
I found that for many collections, switching to tagging and the use of dynamic collections does improve performance. But I still have a number of working collections that are really best handled by collections.
Thank you for detailing your thoughts. And I think that there are many users who agree with you. However, I have a very different perspective on the solution. I don't think Logos is bloated with useless features. I think Logos fails to provide a "Logos Light" version for the users like yourself ... think of "Light" vs. "Professional" in this context. I think that the FL management is aware of this issue but I have no insight into how they are approaching resolving it.
If I were you, I would start by actually timing how long it takes to populate the Information Panel for example - post it on the forums and ask others how it compares for them. If yours is taking longer than average, it would be worth trying to track down why.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Medina said:
Anther one I can think is the Psalm thing.
This is actually one of my favorite features ... I suspect you don't belong to a tradition that sings only psalms or prays several psalms daily.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi David,
Just in case something in it helps, here's a link to a guide for making Logos/Verbum run faster on laptops and desktops: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/187051.aspx.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Thanks. I'll take a look at it and see what I can implement.
But I did notice that the first suggestion is to replace the drive with am SSD. While I do understand that SSD is best no matter and I would love to be able, but for them to suggest that it is like Logos passing the bucket. They want me to spend more money to "help" their inefficient and slow app run as it should anyway. To purchase and install an SSD on my iMac would cost me close to $700. Not an acceptable solution at this time.
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We do, I may be wrong, (probably I am) but I fail to see the true use of it except that looks pretty.
I am no expert on Logos but I am sure there are things that require lots of overhead to run that is raging the app and barely anyone uses it that could be trim. Or better yet, revise the code to make it faster and you may not have to cut off anything, even if it just one person using it.
I do appreciate them trying to come up with new and glam ways to do things, even if they are just remotely useful to someone, but it should not be by tasking an inefficient app even further.
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David Medina said:
To purchase and install an SSD on my iMac would cost me close to $700.
Perhaps not. Check this out.
Pre 2015 I would not have gone the SSD route because of the high rate of failure.
Now, I cannot imagine not running off a good SSD.
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Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself. I ake my money working with my computer and if by any chance I happen to break the screen or something else trying to install an SSD I would be out of work. I appreciate the suggestion but honestly I cannot risk it.cannot
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David Medina said:
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless.
Greek has a wider range of verbal expression than English so my favorite Logos/Verbum feature is Visual Filter highlighting so can "see" range of Greek Verbal expression in resources having Logos Greek Morphology tagging, Logos Wiki has => Examples of visual filters
Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters being usable in Logos 8 Basic & Verbum 8 Basic. Thankful for Faithlife enabling free sharing of user created visual filter documents. Caveat: opening a resource with Visual Filter highlighting may take a bit longer for hundreds of search results to be combined for simultaneous display (so learned years ago to click & wait). Thankful for a friend helping me with a 2019 model 27" iMac 5K earlier this year => Computer specs used @ Logos for large libraries (Logos, Verbum, and all applications are noticeably more responsive on newer hardware so agree with Faithlife recommendation for NVMe SSD)
Chapter and Verse numbers were added ~500 years ago (for use with Concordances). Unfortunately, number placement has alignment issues with original language thought boundaries: e.g. Philippians 4:6 is in the middle of a Greek sentence. Thankful for Logos/Verbum having the option to hide chapter and verse numbers.
Personally learning Hebrew so Thankful for Mobile Ed Course => Mobile Ed: HB101 Introduction to Biblical Hebrew (10 hour course)
David Medina said:Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer.
An option for macOS is using an external SSD as the startup disk. SSD should noticeably improve responsiveness for your primary demanding programs (along with Logos/Verbum). Reading 800 MB file from HD takes 10+ seconds while external Sata III SSD takes 2+ seconds and newer NVMe SSD read is less than a second. Note: external SSD can also be used during migration to a newer Mac model (with subsequent reformat to become Time Machine backup device).
New 'normal' is SSD. New MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, iMac Pro, Mac Pro, and Mac Mini models all have SSD. New iMac models have storage options of 5400-rpm HD, Fusion Drive (using small SSD with large HD), and SSD => https://www.apple.com/mac/compare/
Logos Help Center (LHC) includes Desktop articles => Recommended Hardware and Software and => Optimizing Logos Performance
Years ago replaced HD inside 27" iMac with SSD using an I Fix It guide => https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iMac_Intel Older iMac models have magnets holding glass to frame so glass can be pulled out using suction cup(s). For Retina iMac Display (with thinner edges), Apple manufacturing changed to double-sided thin foam tape (so have not tried opening a 5K iMac since tape would need careful replacement).
An unsupported configuration is using an external SSD (with different startup disk). Logos wiki has => Install in different folder or drive Caveat: newer macOS on 2014 model 27" iMac 5k confirmed USB connection to external SSD periodically disappears (had relocated Resources folder to external SSD due to internal SSD lacking storage capacity). Newer 2019 model 27" iMac 5k running macOS 10.15 sometimes has USB disconnect for a Windows external keyboard with LED backlighting.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I will not risk doing the update myself. If it breaks I cannot longer make a living.
Knowing original laguages could be great but everything you said about it went over my head. At this moment I have no time to learn original languages.
Do you or anyone know how do you delete visual filters?
Thanks,
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I understand. I hope you find an alternative. I stand with you that the Logos code could be slimmed down, but practically SSD has been a solution for the bottleneck.David Medina said:Thanks, but while I worked as a computer tech for many years I am not inclined to do it myself.
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Thanks.
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I think the SSD is a general quality of life improvement for computers. Whenever I go back, HDD seems too slow. So I don't think of it as passing the bucket. Expect it to be more noticeable as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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David Wanat said:
... as more programs are designed with the SSD in mind.
SSD and memory. Most machines have underutilized RAM.
I'm no expert, but if Logos had a setting like Large Memory Caching (for instance, the entire index could be cached in memory) slowdowns can be minimized.
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I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.
Logos has some wonderful tools which is the reason I bought it. I Love the Notes in Logos, best in class, I think. I also love the reports as it helps make sense of so many reources.
When designing software developers usually have available the latest and greatest so for them it runs great. But most users cannot afford upgrades. So they need to take into consideration what system users may be running the program and not just assume that everyone has the blessing of the latest and greatest. Now, I do not know if Logos does or does no do that. I do not know. But telling me to upgrade solve my problem tells me that they may not.
The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it. But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.
The fact is that whenever Accordance work on their upgrades they make sure that whatever they add does not hurt the user experience and speed. Logos want to be so feature rich that overrides any concern for speed forcing people to invest into a new computer every time a new upgrade comes out if they want to experience a satisfactory user experience. I call that passing the bucket.
Get a new computer you say... I wish it was that easy and, when my computers were brand new Logos didn't run much better either. The truth is that Logos has always been slowest solution out there. So I refuse having to spend more money, money that I do not have, to fix something Logos should be fixing.
And I expect someone to tell me to use Accordance and stop complaining about Logos. If it just were that easy! I have over $1000 invested in Logos over the years and do like many of the tools that Logs have. I just wants them to finally fix this. But if they are willing to refund me what I have invested in Logos I will gladly use Accordance.
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When I went off to college in 1988, I learned about what microcomputers were doing from a Computer Science major friend. I was utter confused why there were so many different ways to edit text. There were text editors - both some really old line based ones and full screen ones. There were Word Processors. And there were Desktop Publishing programs. But in using them, I learned how while they have similar jobs, there are trade offs in efficiency with the various solutions. You don't want to write programs using a Word Processor, since the Word Processor will be inserting format codes everywhere. And while you could do amazing things with a Desktop Publisher, it was slow on real hardware. And you generally would not want to create a tri-fold brochure with edlin... I still see the difference, but on the other hand, used a work computer in the late 90's that used WordPerfect as the text editor for emails, and have seen Word Processors add so many Desktop Publishing features that I have no need whatsoever to use a separate Desktop Publisher for things.
And so there are various software "solutions" to using a computer to help with Bible Study. Logos is designed to work with a library of multiple resources, and has powerful tools to search your library and make connections. Some of these resources are based on the biblical text and the traditional exegetical process - but by no means all, or even most of them. So, while Logos certainly can pull up the textual base of many English Bibles, there are tools that are more specialized in this and so do it MUCH faster.
Your machine is fairly hefty - but its weakness is where Logos needs the most, namely, jumping around a lot on your external storage device. Moore's Law may no longer be that accurate, but at least with SSD's it seems to be close for now. Adding a SSD to my low-end laptop has made Logos perform faster for me than it ever has since Logos 4 came out, with its change in design to whole library searching. I suspect that between SSD's becoming more mainstream on consumer devices as well as Logos having more options to have separate computer and cloud resources that performance will become less of an issue.
Of course, the future is not here. And I certainly understand not wanting to risk a device you depend upon for your livelihood on an upgrade you do yourself. Do try as much of the advice on speeding up performance as you can. But it is certainly possible that Logos may not be the best tool for you with your current tech. But the community of users here is diverse enough that much of what you describe as fluff may be some of the most important features for others. I am so far willing to bet that most of what slows down Logos will become less of an issue on future computers. I certainly have seen Faithlife do massive work to make their program more efficient over the last dozen years...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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David Medina said:
The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it. But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.
Not really.
On another thread just today, a morph search for verbal forms took .63 seconds to find more than 25,000 instances (yes, an SSD). Of course, getting the software to just show the first few results took a few excruciating minutes ... I hesitated to think about a page-worth. I switched over to BW but they didn't have the resource. Accordance is really the only choice, when you've got real work to do.
I notice it only took 2 forum pages to move from Logos programming inefficiencies to 'it's the user's fault'. Not too shabby, huh? Logosians are good.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.
I know nothing about the internal development cycle of Accordance. I do know that Logos and Accordance started in very different cultures - PC vs. Apple ... but Apple lost my interest with the first Mac for which they promised and never delivered a true compiler rather than interpreter. When I started with Logos both Logos and Accordance were single platform applications so the choice between them was simple. Rather the choice was between Logos and several other vendors (some now defunct) -- I chose Logos because of its support of a broader canon (Anyone remember how long the delay was between the promise and the delivery of the Catholic version?). For my uses efficiency and speed are not the highest priority - resources and linkage are. The result is that I have considerably more invested than you and that upon my death or senility some Dominican professor or seminarian will have a very adequate library. Even in my supporting software - timelines, concept mapping, argument mapping, ... - I make trade off; in these it is often cost very speed and features. So yes, I get impatient waiting for drop-downs to load, annoyed and short-tempered at sloppy production control on resources and their tagging.... but I also know that I made my bed so I have to lie in it, so to speak. And I know that where it matters most to me, Faithlife listens even when they don't provide the answer I want. So continue to push for the performance that is important to you, encourage others to join you ... but be realistic about the investment of resources you are asking FL to make.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Medina said:
I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.
Hi David,
Logos on HDD is painfully slow and I do not think that FL intends to change that since most new computers have SSD, however, I could be wrong. That said, I do not know how to advise you. I wish I had some fix for you, but the problem is truly that Logos does not run well on computers with HDD.
I understand the investment we all have in our libraries and changing software is often not a viable option. I doubt you can get a refund... you may be able to sell it as there is a Facebook page out there somewhere... and Accordance has some discounts for products you have a license for in another program to assist in transitioning to their product.
Sorry if you feel that your concerns have not been constructively addressed.
Please continue to make your concerns known, perhaps someone from FL can address them. I too would like Logos to fix this as speed continues to be probably the number one complaint from customers.
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David Medina said:
I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.
While you're right that a program isn't designed for a type of storage device, it's also important not to overlook that programs which read and write large amounts of data are heavily dependent on (and can be I/O bound by) the speed of the storage device.
HDs have much worse (~100x) access times, mostly due to seek time and rotational latency. SDDs tend to provide (~4x) higher transfer speed, mostly due to better read/write performance and interface bandwidth.
The Logos recommended system requirements point out this very thing (and later mention "lightning fast" SSD as a better speed choice over slower HD):
[quote]However, when constantly reading and writing large amounts of data, like a large Logos library, hard drive speed can become a major bottleneck in some systems.
Is Logos slow? It certainly can be. Does it run on an HD? Yes, but it will clearly perform better on an SSD. (I understand, however, that upgrading is not an option.)
David Medina said:Logos want to be so feature rich that overrides any concern for speed
To be fair, I don't believe that the developers ever deliberately sacrifice performance for features.
David Medina said:I just wants them to finally fix this.
We live in an imperfect world. If FL ever delivered a major new release that only offered better performance but no new features, some percentage of the customers will complain that they're unnecessarily paying for something that shouldn't have cost them anything.
I think that the developers do the best they can with the time they're given to try to deliver as many of the goals they hope to achieve (which include a mix of improved performance and functionality).
While it's unfortunately easy for us to be backseat developers, I don't think we could do better than them, and we probably shouldn't judge whether they're spending too much time on one thing at the expense of another. However, If L8 or L7 or L9 doesn't work the way we want(ed) it to, there's always the 30-day refund policy.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Medina said:
I will not risk doing the update myself. If it breaks I cannot longer make a living.
Understand risk plus remember a professional lesson learned years ago to have workable fall back option when practical for going forward.
For external SSD, need two items: an internal SSD and USB adapter (cable OR enclosure)
$ 92.99 for 1 TB SSD => https://www.amazon.com/Silicon-Power-Performance-Internal-SP001TBSS3A55S25/dp/B07B4G19X3 (if HD is larger than the 1 TB standard HD, then recommend getting a larger SSD: e.g. $ 199.99 for 2 TB, $ 479.99 for 4 TB)
- $ 7.99 for USB Sata adapter cable => https://www.amazon.com/Drive-Adapter-Cable-Support-Black/dp/B07S9CKV7X
- OR
- $ 8.99 for USB drive enclosure => https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Tool-free-Enclosure-Optimized-EC-UASP/dp/B00OJ3UJ2S
Connect SSD to USB adapter
Connect USB to iMac
Install macOS to external SSD, which includes using Apple's Migration Assistant to copy your Applications and Files.
When powering up iMac, press and hold option key then press power button to turn on iMac. Keep holding option key down until Mac shows bootable choices: Release option key then click desired choice for startup: internal HD OR external SSD
If external SSD does not work, can restart iMac and switch back to internal HD (provided something bad has not happened to internal HD). Thankfully have installed macOS to external disks many times, which was later followed by booting up internal disk.
David Medina said:Do you or anyone know how do you delete visual filters?
In Logos/Verbum application, can use Docs to choose Visual Filters. Right Click on a Visual Filter has Delete choice:
Documents web site has Actions: Publish/Withdraw/Duplicate/Delete Visual Filters (and other documents) => https://documents.logos.com/
David Medina said:The reason many of you feel Logos is adequate may be that you have been using it for a long time you have gotten used to it and just learned to live with it. But if you were to compare Logos to Accordance you will see how inefficcient and slow Logos really is.
Years ago Accordance could find a Greek word, but could not combine search results of Greek Morphology aspects to enable "seeing" nuanced range of verbal expression (how verbs were used that is missing from range of verbal word meaning). For example, Philippians 4:4 translations often have "Rejoice" for a Greek imperative (command) verb. Another translation is: "Be Rejoicing in The Lord always" (to express present tense continual action with command to Be Rejoicing while remembering Paul was in prison at the time so Rejoicing choice does not depend on circumstances). My forum nickname "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus
" is my variation of Philippians 4:4 and reminder to keep Rejoicing in The Lord always [:D] Thankful for Logos Greek Morphology visual filters created using Logos 4 on Mac & Windows ~2011 being usable today (with speed improvement).Apologies for not looking at Accordance nor their user forum for years (so currently do not know their search capabilities). My older opinion of user forums was Logos being more active and responsive. Thankful for many friendly forum & Faithlife discussions: have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn [:D]
Keep Smiling [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:
And I know that where it matters most to me, Faithlife listens even when they don't provide the answer I want.
[:)]
Thanks for pointing that out, MJ!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Medina said:
I am sorry but programs are not designed for SSD or HDD. It does not work like that.
As programs continue to process more and more data, the faster methods of storage will be assumed, and recommended, eventually reaching the point where somebody will be surprised to learn the older medium is still being used. That's not only the case with Logos.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Sean said:
the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints? From all the posts by users with stars by their names, you'd think so. If we're not going to get any software fixes but only be advised to buy more hardware, it'd be good to know so we can save a lot of time and typing.
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Sean said:
Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints?
I think if the requirements ever did change, they’d remove HD (as the slower yet still functional) option.
PetahChristian said:The Logos recommended system requirements point out this very thing (and later mention "lightning fast" SSD as a better speed choice over slower HD):
[quote]However, when constantly reading and writing large amounts of data, like a large Logos library, hard drive speed can become a major bottleneck in some systems.
I’m running Logos on an internal HD and the only slowdown I notice is how painfully long it takes for a drop down to populate. Otherwise, it seems to run fine for me (but my system is a relatively recent high-end build from last summer). Others’ HD experience may vary.
(I didn’t realize how much space Windows used. I had a 256 Gb SSD on my Mac and could fit macOS and Logos there, but apparently should have gotten a 512 Gb SSD for Windows.)
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Sean said:Sean said:
the chorus: "Just get an SSD!"
Actually, it would be good if FaithLife staff could chime in on this. Is this the official response to performance complaints? From all the posts by users with stars by their names, you'd think so.
I agree, and no it is not official. Just my observation and opinion. I think I even stated "I could be wrong."
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Let's look at it from another angle.
David Medina said:I was trying to see what Hebrew word was used in Micah 6:8 for "justice" and nowhere I could find the word "Mishpat" was the one used.
The available resources may be a factor here. On my computer, I immediately get mishpat on mouse-over:
On right-click, I immediately get a read-out of relevant entries:
David Medina said:
Logos 8 is running on an iMac that is no slacker. While it is a 2013 model it has 24GB of memory, plenty HD space, and a decent processor.
I am no pastor and I make my living as a filmmaker and photographer. What I cannot understand if my iMac is enough to run very demanding programs like Photoshop, Capture One, Motion, and Final Cut Pro X...
The other applications David names would grind to a halt on an I/O bottleneck. Consequently they have all been written to aggressively populate memory. David's machine has 24GB. That is quite a lot of memory.
If Logos can be automatically or manually set to aggressively populate memory (Large Memory Caching as a Program Setting?) I am sure even with a physical HDD the lags will be minimized.0 -
David et als,
I run Mc 2014 with 128GB SSD and current system software. I run Both Anglican and Standard Platinum plus some others. Space is getting cramped.
I did the following:
1) Delete (save off my computer) all information I don't regularly use. This being all the courses, Targums and commentaries that I do not use. This can be done easily, and they can also be downloaded easily. By taking them off your machine, they are still on the servers at Logos. This means I still have access to the information if and when I need it. To do this open your library, at the left of your screen for a resource say the NIV Bible, you will see a circle with three dots beside it. Click on these dots, one of the options is remove from device, click this and the resource is removed but can be redownloaded again by hitting the three dots and choosing the alternative you want.
2) Invest in an accessory drive, transfer all my docs, pdf, spreadsheets that I am not using onto it. Only leave the bare minimum on my machine that I have to use.
3) I also run the A companies software, this is for my languages. Any resources that are duplicated I tend to save off my main machine.
4) I don't use photoshop, because of price; and even if I did would not use it at the same time as Logos or Accordance. All these eat up memory, especially if you edit big files.
5) Use a memory clearing program like Washing Machine or other program to regularly clean up your machine.
I have no problems but need a bigger Mac within a year or two as I want to do photo editing, but not at the same time as Logos stuff. Although not ordained, I do occasional preaching and pastoral work.
I don't have a problem doing by following the above.
Hope this is helpful
Leaving you in God's Care and Grace
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Phil Tuften said:
I run Mc 2014 with 128GB SSD and current system software. I run Both Anglican and Standard Platinum plus some others. Space is getting cramped.
2014 Mac? Check this out.
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It looks like Logos have updated their recommended system spec since last I looked. Now it includes a 512GB NVMe SSD with a minimum of 60GB free space. https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360007554992-Recommended-Hardware-and-Software
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I know that when I got my replacement laptop (I used to have a 2013 rMBP With 8gb memory and a SSD)), I used their recommended as my minimum because I wanted to avoid any slowdowns. My current machine runs Logos much better.
You mentioned having a Mac earlier in this thread. One thing I’ve noticed from my own experience is that the Apple cost for something is excessive compared with the PC cost. So that’s why I went back to PC, even though I’d have been happy staying with Mac.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
You mentioned having a Mac earlier in this thread. One thing I’ve noticed from my own experience is that the Apple cost for something is excessive compared with the PC cost. So that’s why I went back to PC, even though I’d have been happy staying with Mac.
Years ago remember comparable hardware in a Dell laptop being about half the price of a MacBook Pro. Today, PC still has more hardware configuration choices. For grins, looked for an Intel Core i9 laptop with 4K UHD display for comparison with 16" MacBook Pro.
ASUS ZenBook Pro 15 Laptop with Innovative Screenpad, 15.6” UHD 4K Touch, Intel Core i9-8950HK, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti, 16GB DDR4 RAM, 512GB PCIe SSD, Backlit KB, Windows 10 Pro, UX580GE-XB74T => https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B07CXW742M is $ 1,999 used & $ 2,699 new
Amazon renewed Apple MacBook Pro, 2019 Model, 15-inch, Intel core i9 Processor, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD Storage, MV912LL/A - Space Gray => https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B083Z22L3H is $ 1,978 that costs less than $ 2,289 Apple Refurbished => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G0XZVLL/A/Refurbished-16-inch-MacBook-Pro-24GHz-8-core-Intel-Core-i9-with-Retina-display-Space-Gray whose new price of $ 2,699 (with 9th Generation Intel Core i9 while ASUS ZenBook Pro 15 laptop is 8th Generation Intel Core i9) Do like ASUS having a touch screen that Apple does not have.
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MSI GE75 Raider 10SGS-222 17.3" 300Hz 3ms Gaming Laptop Intel Core i9-10980HK RTX 2080 Super 32GB 1TB NVMe SSD Win10 VR Ready => https://www.amazon.com/MSI-Raider-10SGS-222-Gaming-i9-10980HK/dp/B0862DKTZ8 is $ 2,999
Apple Refurbished 16-inch MacBook Pro 2.3GHz 8-core Intel Core i9 with Retina display- Space Gray 32 GB Ram, 1 TB NVMe SSD => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/G0Y07LL/A/Refurbished-16-inch-MacBook-Pro-23GHz-8-core-Intel-Core-i9-with-Retina-display-Space-Gray is $ 2,719 with New being $ 3,199 that is 6.6 % more than MSI GE75 Raider 10SGS-222 (MSI has 10th Generation Intel Core i9 while Apple has 9th Generation Intel Core i9, but 16" MacBook Pro screen is 3072x1900 retina display while MSI 17.3" is 1920x1080)
MSI Creator 17 A10SFS-254 (i7-10875H, 32GB RAM, 1TB NVMe SSD, RTX2070 Super 8GB, 17.3" 4K UHD HDR1000 Mini LED, Windows 10 Pro) Creative Professional Laptop => https://www.amazon.com/Creator-17-A10SFS-254-i7-10875H-Professional/dp/B086PPVTS1 is $ 2,999 with retina display of 3840x2160 (in stock estimate is July 31, 2020)
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While looking for an Intel Core i9, noticed Dell XPS 15 laptop 15.6", 4K UHD InfinityEdge Touch, 9th Gen Intel Core i7-9750H, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 4GB GDDR5, 1TB SSD storage, 16GB RAM, XPS7590-7565SLV-PUS => https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Touch-Intel-NVIDIA-GeForce/dp/B07T4HGF79 for $1,899 that has a slightly scratched used one for $ 1,455.07 (personal preference is 17.3" display that is 11 % larger than 15.6" so everything is enlarged 11%, which is a bit easier to read using older eyes).
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For another grin, looked for an all-in-one computer having an Intel Core i9 to compare with 2019 model 27" iMac 5K
Lenovo IdeaCentre AIO 27" Touch 2TB SSD 32GB RAM Extreme (Intel Core i9-9900K CPU Turbo Boost to 5.00GHz, 32 GB RAM, 2 TB SSD, 27" QHD Touchscreen, Win 10) Desktop All in One PC Computer A540-27ICB => https://www.amazon.com/Lenovo-IdeaCentre-i9-9900K-Touchscreen-A540-27ICB/dp/B087WKRMK3 is $ 2,899 with resolution of 2560x1440 that is one/4th of Apple's 5120x2880 retina display
New 27" iMac 5K build to order with 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9-9900K with 32GB Ram, 2 TB SSD is $ 3,999 (so refurbished would be $ 3,399). Ram in 27" iMac has four slots that customer can easily change (up to 128 GB Ram), which is noticeably less expensive than Apple's Ram.
New OptiPlex 7770 All-in-One 27" 4K UHD 3840x2170 Non-Touch Display A Perfect Productivity Desktop 9th Gen i9-9900 up to 4.9GHz GTX 1050 Wireless Keyboard & Mouse (2TB SSD|32GB RAM|Win 10 PRO) => https://www.amazon.com/OptiPlex-7770-All-One-Desktop/dp/B07VMTSBY1 is $ 3,657.77 (4K resolution is 3840x2170 that has less pixels compared to Apple's 5120x2880 retina)
Refurbished 2019 iMac 27" 5K having 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9 with 8 GB RAM, 1 TB SSD, & Radeon Pro 580x for $ 2,549 => https://www.apple.com/shop/product/GMVTBLL/A/Refurbished-27-inch-iMac-37GHz-6-core-Intel-Core-i5-with-Retina-5K-display
FYI: Geekbench Single Core CPU benchmark for 3.6 GHz Intel Core i9 being 1244 (#1) => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks
HyperX Impact 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 CL16 SODIMM (Kit of 2) Laptop Memory HX426S16IBK2/64 => https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08492TQGQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00 is $ 287.99 (remove Apple Ram due to CL timing)
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Sean said:
What falls out of the conversation every time this is brought up: Logos is slow at EVERYTHING, even at tasks that should not be so demanding. Populating drop down lists from Tools takes FOREVER. Switching layouts almost always makes Windows hang for a bit--even if it's a small layout! These tasks don't (or, shouldn't) require "hundreds of files open with many simultaneous read & writes." Switching to the home page (the use of which I've totally abandoned with L8) shouldn't take a solid 30+ seconds.
Well, it's page 3, and the Logosians are now shopping for David's new computer. FL has helpfully put David's hardware in the inadaquate category. All that remains is for David to simply admit the software is fine .... it's David that's the problem. That be page 4. Go, Logosians, go!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Medina said:
My first thought was the information panel. Unfortunately I got tired of waiting for tho display anything.
I am not a Logo Power user. I am not a pastor nor a seminary student. I just want to use Logos to Study the Bible and do very basic searches for which I mostly use the Passage Guide.
I am not either a greek or hewrew student. I just do basic word studies for which I find the Word Study Guide pretty much useless. But that is probably me. Ys, I have taken seminars and they just tell ou what the feature is used for and that it is.
I think Logos is a very bloated app beyond and I do not have a large library way below platinum.
Questions.
If I do any of the following will it have any effect? Eliminating useless resources? Elimination collections?
Of course, I know that an SSD will help but that is pricesely my point. I should not have to depend from an SSD to have an app work decently. If that is a requirenment it should be plaster all over te website so we do not waste money buying an app that does not work properly in a normal compuer.
I feel your pain. I have been using Logos since 1997 and I am a Pastor, Professor of Theology and Greek, so I enjoy the original language features Logos has. I have a MacBook Pro with an SSD and I noticed that some of the features were causing the program to run slower than normal (after an update, of course), so I called customer support and was told to turn these features off, so I did and the program ran great.
Problem, to which I informed the representative, "why do I need to turn off features that Logos offers (some of which I have to pay for through Logos Connect) in order to get the program to work correctly? Yes, I agree, Logos needs to work on Logos. The sermon Editor is a great concept that I use but things could be faster and consistent.
The Canvas tool, is the glitter to which you refer. It needs to go away and the "brain power" that was used in creating that needed to be used to make the software faster. The Canvas tool, is glitchy and very difficult to use and pretty much worthless.
I have told Logos for years to fixed what you have instead of creating more features. Now, I know that they have to great new feature to keep up with Accordance, but also work on the speed, There is no need that Logos can run so good at times and then so bad at others and no need that Accordance runs so fast and Logos runs so much slower. If I did not have so much invested in Logos I, too, would have probably already switch. It is a great software, with great features and potential, but Logos needs to work on Logos.
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Denise said:
Well, it's page 3, and the Logosians are now shopping for David's new computer. FL has helpfully put David's hardware in the inadaquate category. All that remains is for David to simply admit the software is fine .... it's David that's the problem. That be page 4. Go, Logosians, go!
Denise, David is in no way the problem. It is just a bad hand he has been dealt. Just the facts...
Those that are advising are trying to work through other options since the one solution that really works for the OP currently and probably for the future does not exist. The OP has the right to vent and feel frustrated. I personally don't feel anyone is trying to shut the OP up. Maybe it is just perceptions... there is enough animosity in the world maybe I am just thinking the best of their intentions. And yours as well, you are really clever and witty and I mostly enjoy your posts.[:)]
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John Fidel said:
Denise, David is in no way the problem. It is just a bad hand he has been dealt. Just the facts...
Well, of course David's not the issue. We're going on over a decade of 'slow' now. Remember the autumn leaves falling in 2009, as 'slow' was introduced?
David is 'bad-hand' #432 (made that up ... I don't want to even guess how many pastors trying to concentrate on the word of God, are instead tinkering with Logos to see if it will go any faster).
But I notice you didn't mention Logos. That's on-target. We're past page 1.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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