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Posts 17
Ken Brown | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Nov 17 2020 12:05 PM

Any timeline for Logos to be made compatible without the use of Rosetta?

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 12:36 PM

Ken Brown:

Any timeline for Logos to be made compatible without the use of Rosetta?

Many years ago Logos got burned by giving dates for the appearance of the first Mac version. Since then, the company has been reluctant to provide promised dates for major upgrades—or even minor ones.

Posts 17
Ken Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 1:29 PM

With the amount of resources ($$$) that we have invested in this tool over a 20+ year period, that is really an unacceptable response.  I do hope the company is a bit more responsive to their customers than that.  No corporation today wants to promise something and then miss the target, I get that.  But having spent over 30 years in the corporate world, that was never a luxury I could afford if I wanted to remain in business.  We met deadlines that we set for ourselves. I am aware that software vendors do not want to promise and then underperform.  No one does.  But if you are going to do business at the level Logos is now at, get over it.  Same question, any timeline for Logos to be made compatible with the M! Mac chip.  Adobe thinks next year some time.  So do several other much larger vendors.  The only issue is I have invested many more $$$ in this package than those so that increases the vested interest in knowing how long a workaround has to be in place for my day to day work.  

Posts 17
Ken Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 1:35 PM

I get that, I really do.  A non-answer answer though is unacceptable when you have as much $$$$ in the tool as many of us do.  Many software vendors are struggling to catch up with Apple.  Logos is not the only one.  Much larger entities like Adobe are not there yet.  Thus the work around using Rosetta.  Other vendors have provided ballpark dates.  Do not ever put out a date if you do not intend to keep it.  30 years in the corporate world taught me that.  As a customer though, it is my expectation that the organization would have learned from past mistakes and failures and created processes to prevent them from happening in the future.  As large as Logos as gotten over the years, I see that is indeed the case.  Thus I suspect they may have a general idea as to when a solution may be available.  I did not ask for a date, just a timeline.

Posts 2703
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 1:52 PM

Since L9 should run at least as well in Rosetta with an M1 as it does on Intel machines, we will likely have to endure the hardship of performance of about an i9 processor. Right now I am doing that on a Win machine and it's just so terrible hard...

Not.

Seriously, I expect FL will probably get this together in the next several months. L9 just came out. So let's cut them slack as they work on L9 to make it better for everyone. We will get there.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 3:10 PM

Ken Brown:
I did not ask for a date, just a timeline.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196329/1135550.aspx#1135550 

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 17
Ken Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 3:53 PM

Thanks

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 3:56 PM

Ken Brown:
Any timeline for Logos to be made compatible without the use of Rosetta?

No. We don't even have a production machine yet to do performance benchmarking. We have a pre-production development machine that may or may not reflect the production machine's performance. We should be getting one or more very soon, and we'll start to do more extensive compatibility testing, performance benchmarking, etc.

Based on some early indications that we're seeing among tech reviewers, there's a chance performance could be slightly improved even with the emulation layer. If that's the case, there won't be as much urgency to build a native solution. We're exploring different options for native, but that's still a research project.

So, we need more information before we can determine where to fit this in our priority queue:

  • What is performance on M1? Slower, faster, about the same?
  • How many of our users are migrating to Apple's new processors?
  • What are the expected performance gains of being fully native?
  • What are the anticipated costs of migrating to a native solution?

Once we have more detail on these points, we're happy to come back and provide a relative priority and more in terms of expectation than "we're not sure yet."

I'm sorry we don't have more to share at this point.

Posts 17
Ken Brown | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 4:25 PM

Thank you for your response.  I had to get a new machine and opted for one of the new Apples And am fully ok with using Rosetta.  Your questions are the same as mine.  I have some other questions as well and will learn answers going forward.   

Posts 2767
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 5:02 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

So, we need more information before we can determine where to fit this in our priority queue:

  • How many of our users are migrating to Apple's new processors?

Within the next ten years [or less] all of your Apple users will migrate! When will Rosetta disappear 

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 5:35 PM

David Ames:
When will Rosetta disappear?

Previously, Rosetta hadn't disappeared until five years after Apple had completed its transition to PowerPC.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 141
Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 5:48 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Based on some early indications that we're seeing among tech reviewers, there's a chance performance could be slightly improved even with the emulation layer. If that's the case, there won't be as much urgency to build a native solution. We're exploring different options for native, but that's still a research project.

So, we need more information before we can determine where to fit this in our priority queue:

  • What is performance on M1? Slower, faster, about the same?
  • How many of our users are migrating to Apple's new processors?
  • What are the expected performance gains of being fully native?
  • What are the anticipated costs of migrating to a native solution?

This seems very reasonable to me. 

I'm looking forward to hearing confirmation but I would expect that performance on M1 would be at least on par with performance on Intel. That removes the urgency to upgrade.

I would rather Logos take their time to do a great job of integrating this transition into their existing development plans, so that in 5 years Logos has leaped forward... than them be pressured to rush a transition for (at first) a minority of customers and increase their maintenance load prematurely. 

Posts 731
JH | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 17 2020 6:35 PM

Some initial data running Logos on the M1 here:

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196254/1136291.aspx#1136291

Posts 2767
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 5:18 AM

PetahChristian:

David Ames:
When will Rosetta disappear?

Previously, Rosetta hadn't disappeared until five years after Apple had completed its transition to PowerPC.

So two years to hire [if needed] expert programers specializing in the Apple Chips [may already be on board within the iOS group],  One year to Plan, execute and test the Apple Chip programs [if Logos was written correctly may only need a recompile],  one year for Beta, and release the Apple Chip version one year before Rosetta goes away.  Not time to worry.  We [and being a PC person I did say WE] will need periodic updates to the status.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 5:33 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
What are the anticipated costs of migrating to a native solution?

Apple's M1 announcement event => https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/ included several developers comment about quickly creating universal binaries in a day or two (so guessing anticipated costs being lower than previous Apple CPU migrations).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 731
JH | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 18 2020 5:43 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
What are the anticipated costs of migrating to a native solution?

Apple's M1 announcement event => https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/ included several developers comment about quickly creating universal binaries in a day or two (so guessing anticipated costs being lower than previous Apple CPU migrations).

Keep Smiling Smile

I have heard similar comments from developers, though much of this depends on the application and how it was original written. It runs nicely in translation, but I imagine it would blaze as a native app.

Posts 187
Fabian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2020 5:04 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Ken Brown:
Any timeline for Logos to be made compatible without the use of Rosetta?

  • What are the expected performance gains of being fully native?

Fully native with Metal etc. should not be a question. 

Posts 447
Gregory Lawhorn | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 19 2020 5:34 AM

In case you missed it: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/196476.aspx

Posts 3
Andrew Smothers | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 20 2020 10:54 PM

Thank you, Phil for this response.  I'm, also, very interested in seeing the transition to M1.  I'd invite you to, also, consider the relative difference in battery life between emulation in Rosetta and native on M1.  While I may not be doing a lot of untethered work at the moment, I hope that those opportunities will return in the next several months.  The added battery life of the M1 laptops is great, and I suspect emulation will probably impact that even after translation on first launch.

I just purchased my Logos 9 update and am exploring it now.  Thanks for a great advance!

Posts 1
Sebastian | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 23 2020 10:49 AM
  • What is performance on M1? Slower, faster, about the same?

M1 is faster.

  • How many of our users are migrating to Apple's new processors?

It seems several on the forum say they're migrating. Apple will have replaced their whole lineup in less than 2 years.

  • What are the expected performance gains of being fully native?

Chrome ran 80% faster going Native vs. Rosetta2:
https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/20/chrome-m1-macs-80-percent-faster/

Logos probably wouldn't be 80% faster, but there should definitely be some improvement.

  • What are the anticipated costs of migrating to a native solution?

Good question. Another good question: How long will Rosetta 2 be around for?

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