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This post has 100 Replies | 15 Followers

Posts 182
Pater Noster | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2020 2:02 PM

Dan Lioy, Ph.D.:

Please read through the earlier postings on this thread. That’s the context for my previous statement. 

 

As for my most recent link to the article in question, which I recommend you reread again *carefully*, it says the following: “Apple ended the support for OG Rosetta only after 3 years of its release" (emphasis added).

 

So, one potentially valid inference is that the above could parallel the length of time Apple decides to sunset support for Rosetta 2. Ergo, the potential validity of my previous observation that a FL 4–6 year developmental timeline could prove to be logistically challenging. 

 

I stand by my previous observation/s.

You said - "Apple’s commitment to supporting Rosetta 2 seems significantly shorter"

“Apple ended the support for OG Rosetta only after 3 years of its release" - So what they did with another product 11 years ago is a commitment to supporting Rosetta 2?

"So, one potentially valid inference is that ..." - a personal inference is not Apple's commitment.

Your inference, observations, etc. are perfectly valid - and your previous observations are worth standing by, to be sure. My question is not with them, but with your mention of "Apple's commitment". Apple has made no such commitment. I just think it's important to be accurate in what someone else,  person or company, has said. People on these forums might make decisions or judgments based on a statement that is just not true.

Posts 9
Dan Lioy, Ph.D. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2020 2:15 PM

Making inferences, whether concerning Apple or FL (or both), are just that, *inferences*. Rhetorically, there is no hard-and-fast expectation of being accurate, especially since, by definition, making inferences presumes a measure of speculation, and insisting on accuracy is unrealistic. Otherwise, all sorts of speculative statements, opinions, conjectures, and so forth (of which this forum is filled) would need to be held to the same standard of allegedly being "accurate."

 

Also, I made no insinuation that I speak in an official capacity for Apple, FL, or anyone else, besides myself. Indeed, whatever I post here (and elsewhere) is my own personal opinion. If anyone deems to make decisions of a fiduciary nature based on my statements of inference and/or opinion, they do so of their own volition, w/o any presumed liability on my part.

 

Ergo, it is unrealistic to insist (especially in a public forum) that a greater degree of accuracy be maintained by me for the sorts of observations I’ve put forward up to this point.

Posts 2102
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2020 2:22 PM

Mike Prewitt:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

There are two viable pathways:

  1. Mono adds native support (6–12 mos. ???).
  2. .NET 6 adds native support (12–18 mos.).

Thanks for providing initial development estimates. These are the estimates for when the runtime and tools will natively support Apple Silicon on a Mac. I would assume there would be additional time for the FL team to get Logos up and ready for distribution to their user base.

I'm roughly accounting for both in these estimates.

Posts 2102
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2020 2:24 PM

Matthew Speakes:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Matthew Speakes:
Decisions made years ago are now coming back around to make this a difficult task.

There are tradeoffs with every technology choice, and we don't regret using Mono to deliver Logos on Mac. We don't have the luxury of being able to write Logos natively on five platforms. It's heavy use of code sharing that makes it possible for us to build and maintain such a robust app on five platforms. We have roughly 25 developers working on Windows, MacOS, iOS/iPadOS, and the web app (while maintaining responsibility for a variety of other apps, services, and technologies).

We use Mono to share code between Windows and MacOS. We used Xamarin to share code between iOS/iPadOS and Android, though we've dialed back from that for various reasons. We're using Flutter to build a mobile app for Faithlife Courses on iOS/iPadOS and Android. We use WebAssembly (Wasm) to share desktop code with the web app. And we're making heavy use of web technologies to share code between desktop and web—and with Factbook even with mobile.

These features are all written as shared web components:

  1. Atlas
  2. Bible Browser
  3. Canvas
  4. Charts
  5. Courses
  6. Factbook
  7. Homepage
  8. Media
  9. Notes
  10. Sermon Builder
  11. Sermon Manager
  12. Text Comparison
  13. Workflow Editor

Our interactive resources are another form of HTML-based code sharing between desktop and web.

Interesting.  Admittedly, I'm catching on (barely) to the challenges that FL is facing porting the app to Apple silicon.  It seems allowing the FL Mac development team to develop Logos in Xcode from the beginning would have been a massive task, but would've made for a more optimized Logos Mac app and a much easier transition with this current challenge, but the cost would be the inability to share code between development teams and maintain parity between the Win/Mac apps.  If I'm correct in this, then I can understand that there are plusses and minuses to each scenario.  

You are tracking correctly with what I'm saying.

Posts 39
John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 28 2020 7:39 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

I created a feedback item for this, which you're free to vote for. Voting will help us see how important this is collectively to the Logos community, but it may not change the actual timeline, which is the fastest possible path to native support. See this clarification below.

phil, I clicked the link and it asked me to sign up.  I dont want to sign up for another things.  I’ve had Apple products for the last 10 years and with the new M1 and “affordable“ price I plan to stay with Apple.  I want to get the new MBP 13” with M1. Running  Logos is the only reason what I plan to spend so much money on a computer else I would just buy a $1000 computer like my dads.  My current Mac is from 2010 and it so old Logos and Apple doesnt support it. If it wasn’t for Logos I would just keep using it.  I really want to stay with Apple but from what I’ve read here and on other conversations it seems like Logos running on M1 has mixed reviews.  At this point I plan to get a new MBP 13” with M1 chip very soon.  I keep my computers forever so I’m really interested in Logos running well on a Mac.  So, this is my vote for Logos to do whatever it can so folks who use Apple products get the same out of Logos as folks who use the competition. 

Posts 2703
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 29 2020 9:45 AM

As long as FL is working towards getting Logos to run better on Silicon, I am completely happy with whatever means they choose to do it. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 1
Andy Dodd | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 29 2020 1:18 PM

Hi Ken,

  • I have downloaded Logos 9 unto a base Mac mini with the M1 processor with 8gb ram. Here are some thoughts:
  • Indexing on my 16" MBP sets on fans in high speed and heats up my computer like its a griddle. Indexing on the mini was cool and fast it didn't even kick the fans on.
  • I had no issues downloading and installing L9 on the Mac mini.The library resources load very quickly and have been mostly stable (only one crash). I work from a fairly standard split view 3 column across and multiple vertical columns.
  • The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
  • MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
  • I think is you can port a universal M1 native Logos 9, you will have the given the user the best platform for performance. I think the native version would be very fast and smooth given what I have seen from the emulated/ translated version.
Posts 17
Matthew Speakes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 29 2020 1:45 PM

Andy Dodd:

Hi Ken,

  • I have downloaded Logos 9 unto a base Mac mini with the M1 processor with 8gb ram. Here are some thoughts:
  • Indexing on my 16" MBP sets on fans in high speed and heats up my computer like its a griddle. Indexing on the mini was cool and fast it didn't even kick the fans on.
  • I had no issues downloading and installing L9 on the Mac mini.The library resources load very quickly and have been mostly stable (only one crash). I work from a fairly standard split view 3 column across and multiple vertical columns.
  • The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
  • MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.
  • I think is you can port a universal M1 native Logos 9, you will have the given the user the best platform for performance. I think the native version would be very fast and smooth given what I have seen from the emulated/ translated version.

I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM.  There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast.  All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.

Posts 2102
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 29 2020 3:24 PM

Matthew Speakes:

Andy Dodd:

  • The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
  • MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.

I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM.  There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast.  All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.

As I mentioned above, there seems to be a bug with CEF (the Chromium Embedded Framework), which we use for web views in our interactives and shared web components, including the homepage. We'll look into this and see if we can address it.

Posts 16
Antony Brennan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 29 2020 10:51 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

Matthew Speakes:

Andy Dodd:

  • The only real drawback has been the Home Screen. My MBP load the explore articles and will scroll through them fairly smoothly. The Mac mini struggled to load articles and would barely scroll.
  • MBP has 16 Gb Ram and the mini only has 8. I attribute this to the Home Screen slowing as Logos has always been quite the resource hog.

I've got 16GB RAM on my M1 MacBook Air and the home screen is barely useable, so it's not the RAM.  There's no doubt M1 native Logos will be screaming fast.  All the native apps I currently use are insanely fast.

As I mentioned above, there seems to be a bug with CEF (the Chromium Embedded Framework), which we use for web views in our interactives and shared web components, including the homepage. We'll look into this and see if we can address it.

I have a new MacBook Pro silicon 8 GB Ram and except for the potential bug with CEF you have addressed here everything else, in my experience so far, is fast and smooth. 

Posts 3
Enrique Rivera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 2 2020 7:47 PM

This is slightly off topic, but is there any chance I will ever be able to use visual/morphology filters on my reverse interlinears on my iPad?

Posts 2813
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2020 6:02 AM

I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM

Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs

My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/

I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.

Posts 3
Mads Valencia | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2020 6:15 AM

Kevin A. Purcell:

I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM

Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs

My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/

I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.



Thank you!

Posts 17
Matthew Speakes | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2020 3:34 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM

Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs

My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/

I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.

Nice video Kevin.  I have the MacBook Air M1 16GB RAM with 1TB SSD.  My results are similar to yours with Logos.  The homepage is almost unusable, seems this is due to a bug.  I haven't tried the Psalms Explorer, but heard that was laggy as well.  It's amazing how fast Accordance is...  

Posts 39
John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 3 2020 7:05 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:

I did some very non-scientific tests on the performance of Logos on my M1 MacBook Pro and wrote about it on my website.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmoqW-jPIgM

Not as polished but you can see how it runs here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3VhIcJ8Thc and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px7AaTfKyTs

My article: https://www.kevinpurcell.org/m1-macbook-pro-and-bible-study-apps/

I hate the self promotional nature of this post, but since people are discussing this, I felt it was applicable. Enjoy or don't. Feel free to react over there on the videos if you disagree or agree with anything.

thank you very much for the videos.  Seeing Logos perform in the video helped me decide to buy the new MacBook. 

Posts 39
Nick Stapleton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 12:38 PM

Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.

Posts 17
Matthew Speakes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 12:49 PM

Nick Stapleton:

Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.

I'm a little surprised myself.  I love Logos and use it every day - and continue to add to my library, so obviously I'm not going any where.  It shouldn't be news that Logos has always been slow, but now that M1 apps are becoming more and more common, the disparity between the near-instant response I enjoy from native apps (absolutely blazing speed) and Logos is VERY pronounced.  

Posts 39
John Morgan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 12:54 PM

Matthew Speakes:

Nick Stapleton:

Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.

I'm a little surprised myself.  I love Logos and use it every day - and continue to add to my library, so obviously I'm not going any where.  It shouldn't be news that Logos has always been slow, but now that M1 apps are becoming more and more common, the disparity between the near-instant response I enjoy from native apps (absolutely blazing speed) and Logos is VERY pronounced.  

Nick, what do you run Logos on?

Posts 2703
mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 5 2020 7:02 PM

Nick Stapleton:
Did Faithlife not obtain a DTK from Apple back in June when the transition to Apple Silicon was announced? I'm surprised that more of this information wasn't determined 6 months ago.

If I read the response from FL correctly, they did get it. FL is very much on the ball in terms of new things. But how much time they put into gearing up when the main course is an all-platform new version is obviously going to defer to what needs preparation. They chose the better part.

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

Posts 39
Nick Stapleton | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2020 7:21 AM

John Morgan:

Nick, what do you run Logos on?

I'm using an intel MBP and iPad Pro. Planning to move to an Apple Silicon Mac in the next 12 months. 

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