If you want a better price call the sales department, or...?

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Andreas Holmberg | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Nov 28 2010 10:28 AM

I'm sorry to say, but having read this weekends hottest thread:"Black Friday - Cyber Monday 2010" I've learnt something new and very disturbing (and I'm not a new Logos user).

Calling a sales rep (instead of using the website) apparently means you often get a discount. Not because you're buying a whole bunch of resources (in which case it would make sense) but simply because you picked up the phone instead of using the website. I silently wonder how much money I could have saved if only I had called Logos instead of loyally using their website?

To be honest I think this kind of behaviour from an otherwise very nice company is unfair and unjust. Most other online dealers specifically ask you NOT to call them but to use their online shop or, if need be, send an e-mail.

Does Logos prefer us to swamp their phonelines? Should I, living in Scandinavia, also get accustomed (as Mark Barnes slowly and reluctantly is doing - see quote below) order resources by phoning the sales department rather than using the new website? How modern is that? And more importantly, how fair is that?

As a customer I want to be able to trust that the price for a given resource on the Logos website is indeed the lowest price for me and any other customer. If I start to sense (as I do at the moment) that Logos will give people who make phonecalls better prices and preferential treatment as compared to me using the website that will undermine my trust in the company.

I completely agree with what Martin Folley and Mark Barnes have posted in the "Black Friday - Cyber Monday 2010" thread:

Martin Folley:

I still do not like the 'private deal, car salesman' approach of having your own personal dealer, it still seems 'dishonest'. Let me make it clear that I do not believe it to be, but here in the UK, prices are prices, public, open and fair. The only places were bartering is general practice are used car sales, house sales, double glazing and builders. All of whom have a poor reputation.

I also find it curious that, on this thread, nobody, including myself, has actually put much up by way of concrete $ prices for specific resources. I am not aware of any prohibition but I am following the convention that has appeared within this thread. This is by way of an observation more than anything.

And here Mark Barnes commenting on Martin Folleys post:

Mark Barnes:

I'm from the UK too, and agree absolutely. I find it very strange that I can telephone a particular sales rep and get a better deal than I can online. I'm slowly getting used to it, but it still doesn't feel right. I guess it's a cultural thing.

 

Pastor in Stockholm, Church of Sweden

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 10:49 AM

Peace to you!

And Joy!

Thank you for bringing this up again!

             It's not what you know ..........   it's who you know............      abhorent!

           I previously have complained on the forums that this is inherently unfair.

                     If it persists, I am going to have to have a sales person of my own, I guess.  I really love and appreciate Logos and Logos' wonderful products.  I have almost 3,000 resources including Portfolio!

            I am really bothered by this, but if that is going to be the "game," then I guess I need to learn it as well as any other.  It is not a great hardship to call Logos from Canada.  I would think that other people in other places in the world might have a harder time.

           But, I don't like it!  :-(           Not in the least!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 10:53 AM

For some reason, the "edit" function is not working correctly today for me, so I have to make one more quick post.

Canadians by-and-large despise "insider trading," and this seems to me to be that.

If Logos ultimately decides that this will be the name of the "game" in the future as it has in the past and is developing even more so insidiously, then all Logos customers (perhaps by e-mail or at least on the Logos Web Site) should be aware of it.

Otherwise it is just not fair.               Otherwise one can only merely use the computer order shopping cart mechanism and just go ahead and pay what it says.

Can't "dicker" with a computer, eh?       *smile*

 

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 264
Michael G. Halpern | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:13 AM

I think one thing that may be being missed, and the website is not set up for it, is that maybe the more you have invested in Logos, the better price you may be able to get.  This isn't something most companies go around advertising, but if I had a company and you contributed largely to putting my children through college, I would give you a lower price for a resource.  This happens everyday in American business.

I believe Logos has over 750,000 customers.  How may do you think have invested 10 or 20 thousand dollars in their company?  I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

This is not a new concept.  The OP says he understands if a large order is placed that one might get a discount; it seems to me that Logos treats your entire sales history this way.

[edit]  I should have added my brother-in-law own a business in town and has five pricing points for every item in the store (over 100,000 items); customers who purchase the most do so at the lowest price.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:16 AM

I grew up in Japan where サービス ("service") was when the butcher gave you more than you paid for based on the personal relationship he had with you, the customer. The product he gave you for free was paid for out of his own pocket. I don't know if this is the case but, if a Logos salesman is paid by commission, he may just share better deals with those customers who faithfully buy a lot.
I'm also well aquainted with the USofA methods. I like the current Logos marketing set-up because it is more like a "merit-pay" reward system. If a salesman knows he will get the same pay regardless of the quality of service he provides and the level of satisfaction the customer receives, it could possibly result in both of these measures slipping. (Just consider the poor quality of many government services where there is a monopoly.) If a sales person can increase their own reward by pleasing the customer, I bet they will try very hard to do so.
(Even God uses rewards to encourage good deeds.)

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Milford Charles Murray | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:22 AM

Michael G. Halpern:

I think one thing that may be being missed, and the website is not set up for it, is that maybe the more you have invested in Logos, the better price you may be able to get.  This isn't something most companies go around advertising, but if I had a company and you contributed largely to putting my children through college, I would give you a lower price for a resource.  This happens everyday in American business.

I believe Logos has over 750,000 customers.  How may do you think have invested 10 or 20 thousand dollars in their company?  I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

This is not a new concept.  The OP says he understands if a large order is placed that one might get a discount; it seems to me that Logos treats your entire sales history this way.

Peace to you, Michael!

*smile*

         Wow!  That's an idea I've never considered before.              Thank you very much for sharing it.

This is a whole new concept to my sometimes old and tired and weary grey matter! 

In other words, if I am buying a Ford or Chevolet (or whatever!) from the same dealer year after year after year, I really should expect a better price. 

"By George, You've Got It!

                        I think you are correct, and am so glad you are sharing that information with me.         It makes me feel a lot better.

So, then!  If I'm not getting the best price, it's my own fault for not asking!   *smile*

Indeed -- My Fault.  My Own Fault!  My Own Most Grievous Fault!    *smile*

Blessings!

Philippians 4:  4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........

Posts 273
Brad Fry | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:32 AM

But is that indeed the case? Or is it simply the case that you get a better deal by calling a sales rep? That seems to be the message I've gotten in the past from people advising "Call the sales rep to get the best price." If it's what Michael is suggesting I can see some reason to it even if I don't like it. But I have my doubts as to that being the case.

Posts 235
Tom Geswein | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:40 AM

I have heard everyone talk about using a sales rep for a long time.  My story, unfortunately is a little different.  Last year around Christmas, I chose to make a couple of larger purchases (by my wallet's standards).  I made my decision on a Friday evening, but due to reading about everyone saving money by calling a sales rep, I grudgingly waited until Monday morning to call instead of doing it online.  When I called, hoping for a deal of any sorts, I was rather suprised when I didn't save a penny.  I had to ask myself, was I supposed to ask, beg, or jump up and down on one foot?  That was my first and last dealing with a sales rep.  Obviously, others are having better luck than I did, but I have since made all of my purchases (a lot of purchases) on their website.  (The particular items I bought were on sale, so that  may be why I wasn't offered a discount, but I figured he would have told me that, if that was the case.)

I, like you, don't like they way this system works, but if that's the way it is, then so be it.  I have to keep reminding myself that Logos is a company in business to make a profit, so you can't blame them for that.  I would do the same if I had a business.  Why it works that way, I don't know - I think it would be cheaper to have a purchase done automated/online and to entice customers by offering discounts by ordering online.

I hope to muster some courage again to call a sales rep and hopefully save some money soon.  "Better luck next time" they say.

"It seems our problems solve themselves when we look beyond us to those truly in hell."  -  Beyond Our Suffering - AILD

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:42 AM

Milford Charles Murray:
if I am buying a Ford or Chevolet (or whatever!) from the same dealer year after year after year, I really should expect a better price. 

That is why my family all purchase every car from the same dealer. He is a Ford dealer, and I even purchased my Chevy pickup from him. Of course, if this is true, Rosie should get new resources free—or nearly so. Geeked

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 11:45 AM

Tom Geswein:
My story, unfortunately is a little different.  Last year around Christmas, I chose to make a couple of larger purchases (by my wallet's standards).  I made my decision on a Friday evening, but due to reading about everyone saving money by calling a sales rep, I grudgingly waited until Monday morning to call instead of doing it online.  When I called, hoping for a deal of any sorts, I was rather suprised when I didn't save a penny

Perhaps that particular resource was already priced at the lowest available cost. My Black Friday request resulted in 2 of my requested resources already being at that low point, so I had no discount for them.

Posts 1513
Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 12:03 PM

Andreas Holmberg:

Calling a sales rep (instead of using the website) apparently means you often get a discount. Not because you're buying a whole bunch of resources (in which case it would make sense) but simply because you picked up the phone instead of using the website. I silently wonder how much money I could have saved if only I had called Logos instead of loyally using their website?

To be honest I think this kind of behaviour from an otherwise very nice company is unfair and unjust. Most other online dealers specifically ask you NOT to call them but to use their online shop or, if need be, send an e-mail.

Does Logos prefer us to swamp their phonelines? Should I, living in Scandinavia, also get accustomed (as Mark Barnes slowly and reluctantly is doing - see quote below) order resources by phoning the sales department rather than using the new website? How modern is that? And more importantly, how fair is that?

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

 

Posts 97
Andreas Holmberg | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 12:22 PM

Joshua Garcia:

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

Joshua,

Don't misinterpret me! I'm not angry and I don't feel ripped off. Those are your words.

On the contrary, like I wrote, I consider Logos to be a nice company. My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly. The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant! Logos is nothing like the local car dealer. Logos is a big company with a customer base of some 750.000 users. And, may I point out, a lot of worldwide users, not just users in the USA.

To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

 

Pastor in Stockholm, Church of Sweden

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 12:34 PM

Tom Geswein:
The particular items I bought were on sale, so that  may be why I wasn't offered a discount, but I figured he would have told me that, if that was the case.

There are times where we customers may be aware of a special the sales force has not been made aware of. It would be nice if they knew everything going on everywhere regarding special deals but they don't because the sale force is very busy helping customers.

There have been many occasions where my salesman Dave Kaplan has sold me products at a price I could not get directly from the web site. There have also been a few times where Logos makes a direct special offer or sale (like the March Madness price of Works of Francis Schaeffer) that goes lower than any salesman is authorized to go.  Even the current Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale has certain titles with little or no discount.

Try again.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Josh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 12:37 PM

Andreas Holmberg:

Joshua Garcia:

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

Joshua,

Don't misinterpret me! I'm not angry and I don't feel ripped off. Those are your words.

On the contrary, like I wrote, I consider Logos to be a nice company. My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly. The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant! Logos is nothing like the local car dealer. Logos is a big company with a customer base of some 750.000 users. And, may I point out, a lot of worldwide users, not just users in the USA.

To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

 

Every time I read the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1–34) I can't help but feel the laborers who worked longer got treated unfairly. Surprise 

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 1:03 PM

Andreas Holmberg:
My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly.

What is unfair about the way any one has been treated? Matthew 20:15
If someone buys the cheapest Logos base package they get the same excellent service and support from Logos that a Portfolio owner gets.

Andreas Holmberg:
The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant!

Why not?
If the #1 fast food restaurant wants to buy chicken they usually get it at a better price per lb. than you or I.

Earlier this year I calculated the current Logos sales prices (not suggested retail) of my resource library. It was a substantial investment of $**K. There is nothing immoral about offering generous sales prices to faithful customers. I suspect if the truth be known, Logos has offered software to some students or missionaries for much cheaper prices than they sell it to me. I am fine with that. Nothing unfair about it.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 1:27 PM

Andreas Holmberg:
To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

I have to agree with that. On the one hand, I enjoy having discounts, now I know how things work, on the other hand, it still doesn't seem fair.

Note: I don't mind different users being given prices. It seems reasonable to me that there might be (for example) a special offer on a title by a publisher if you own other titles by that publisher, or perhaps better prices given to long-term users or users with large libraries. But I don't like the same user being given different prices depending who happens to answer the phone.

Equally, I don't mind different channels offering different pricing structures, but I do mind this not being clear. Save 10% if you buy on-line is very common. It the Logos website said: "Click to buy now, or telephone to see if we can offer you an even better deal", that would be fine, too. But it doesn't, and that's one of the reasons it seems unfair, because users 'in the know' may pay less than others (even more so because it's counter-intuitive - logic would state that the best price should be one that doesn't involve salaried staff).

So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

  • The best prices are to be found in Community Price, Pre-Pub and Academic Sales, in that order. You'll almost never beat these prices, even if you phone up.
  • You can nearly always get 10%-15% off base packages.
  • On other products, there's no guarantee at all that you will get a discount. I don't want this thread to give false hopes. But you're more likely to get a discount if:
    • You're not buying a boxed product, or a product from a publisher who also sells the product themselves.
    • You're buying a collection and you already have some resources in the collection.
    • You're buying multiple resources in one purchase.
    • You're a good customer (whatever that means). I'm guessing at this one, but it does seem to me that discounts that I've been offered have improved slowly over time.
  • I've not noticed any difference in price whether I email or phone.
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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 1:48 PM

Mark Barnes:
So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

Good summary.

When is the video coming out on this?? Wink

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 1:52 PM

I generally don't call...only sometimes if it's a huge purchase...

I called to get Logos for a relative of mine recently and didn't get any price break...only a referral credit which would not have come from buying online....

 

that's my experience...no extra discounts..just a nice sales person DAVE KAPLAN!

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

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Ward Walker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 1:56 PM

I buy most of my items from CP and Pre-Pub (at least until the "Great House Repair season of 2010" hit Crying ).

I would much prefer purchasing from the website, but the perception has been built for me that doing so for a "normal resource" is not likely to be the cheapest cost for me--add to that the need for sales agent intervention in order to quickly update the online license for pre-L4 resources (although that is thankfully getting rarer now). 

Since I get most of my hankerin' for new resources on the weekends, that means I'll probably be able to overcome impulse buys Wink as I wait for harmony between Logos sales agent hours and my availability.

If quantity of (historical?) purchases is the factor that most contributes to potential telephonic discounts, I'd hope this could be built into the website logic (perhaps as a separate "frequent purchaser" discount?). 

I can certainly understand the challenges a phone-based ordering methodology poses to those who don't reside in timezones of the Americas.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 28 2010 2:03 PM

I think it would be nice if Logos moved to an everyday low price model instead of periodic sales and special discounts if you call a sales rep.  I believe it would do a lot to increase sales in the long run.  I can understand why a salesperson would have an incentive to discount their special customers since it would increase their remuneration by building customer loyalty.  However, I think the company would be better served by offering better deals to everyone that buys, no matter what channel they use.  It is obvious to me that there is a lot of interest in getting lower prices evidenced by the tremendous response to the recent Black Friday sale.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

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