If you want a better price call the sales department, or...?

Peace to you!

And Joy!

Thank you for bringing this up again!

It's not what you know .......... it's who you know............ abhorent!

I previously have complained on the forums that this is inherently unfair.

If it persists, I am going to have to have a sales person of my own, I guess. I really love and appreciate Logos and Logos' wonderful products. I have almost 3,000 resources including Portfolio!

I am really bothered by this, but if that is going to be the "game," then I guess I need to learn it as well as any other. It is not a great hardship to call Logos from Canada. I would think that other people in other places in the world might have a harder time.

But, I don't like it! :-( Not in the least!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195920#Comment_195920

For some reason, the "edit" function is not working correctly today for me, so I have to make one more quick post.

Canadians by-and-large despise "insider trading," and this seems to me to be that.

If Logos ultimately decides that this will be the name of the "game" in the future as it has in the past and is developing even more so insidiously, then all Logos customers (perhaps by e-mail or at least on the Logos Web Site) should be aware of it.

Otherwise it is just not fair. Otherwise one can only merely use the computer order shopping cart mechanism and just go ahead and pay what it says.

Can't "dicker" with a computer, eh? *smile*

Michael G. Halpern

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195921#Comment_195921

I think one thing that may be being missed, and the website is not set up for it, is that maybe the more you have invested in Logos, the better price you may be able to get. This isn't something most companies go around advertising, but if I had a company and you contributed largely to putting my children through college, I would give you a lower price for a resource. This happens everyday in American business.

I believe Logos has over 750,000 customers. How may do you think have invested 10 or 20 thousand dollars in their company? I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

This is not a new concept. The OP says he understands if a large order is placed that one might get a discount; it seems to me that Logos treats your entire sales history this way.

[edit] I should have added my brother-in-law own a business in town and has five pricing points for every item in the store (over 100,000 items); customers who purchase the most do so at the lowest price.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195926#Comment_195926

I grew up in Japan where サービス ("service") was when the butcher gave you more than you paid for based on the personal relationship he had with you, the customer. The product he gave you for free was paid for out of his own pocket. I don't know if this is the case but, if a Logos salesman is paid by commission, he may just share better deals with those customers who faithfully buy a lot.
I'm also well aquainted with the USofA methods. I like the current Logos marketing set-up because it is more like a "merit-pay" reward system. If a salesman knows he will get the same pay regardless of the quality of service he provides and the level of satisfaction the customer receives, it could possibly result in both of these measures slipping. (Just consider the poor quality of many government services where there is a monopoly.) If a sales person can increase their own reward by pleasing the customer, I bet they will try very hard to do so.
(Even God uses rewards to encourage good deeds.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195926#Comment_195926

I think one thing that may be being missed, and the website is not set up for it, is that maybe the more you have invested in Logos, the better price you may be able to get. This isn't something most companies go around advertising, but if I had a company and you contributed largely to putting my children through college, I would give you a lower price for a resource. This happens everyday in American business.

I believe Logos has over 750,000 customers. How may do you think have invested 10 or 20 thousand dollars in their company? I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

This is not a new concept. The OP says he understands if a large order is placed that one might get a discount; it seems to me that Logos treats your entire sales history this way.

Peace to you, Michael!

*smile*

Wow! That's an idea I've never considered before. Thank you very much for sharing it.

This is a whole new concept to my sometimes old and tired and weary grey matter!

In other words, if I am buying a Ford or Chevolet (or whatever!) from the same dealer year after year after year, I really should expect a better price.

"By George, You've Got It!

I think you are correct, and am so glad you are sharing that information with me. It makes me feel a lot better.

So, then! If I'm not getting the best price, it's my own fault for not asking! *smile*

Indeed -- My Fault. My Own Fault! My Own Most Grievous Fault! *smile*

Blessings!

Brad Fry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195926#Comment_195926

But is that indeed the case? Or is it simply the case that you get a better deal by calling a sales rep? That seems to be the message I've gotten in the past from people advising "Call the sales rep to get the best price." If it's what Michael is suggesting I can see some reason to it even if I don't like it. But I have my doubts as to that being the case.

Tom Geswein

I have heard everyone talk about using a sales rep for a long time. My story, unfortunately is a little different. Last year around Christmas, I chose to make a couple of larger purchases (by my wallet's standards). I made my decision on a Friday evening, but due to reading about everyone saving money by calling a sales rep, I grudgingly waited until Monday morning to call instead of doing it online. When I called, hoping for a deal of any sorts, I was rather suprised when I didn't save a penny. I had to ask myself, was I supposed to ask, beg, or jump up and down on one foot? That was my first and last dealing with a sales rep. Obviously, others are having better luck than I did, but I have since made all of my purchases (a lot of purchases) on their website. (The particular items I bought were on sale, so that may be why I wasn't offered a discount, but I figured he would have told me that, if that was the case.)

I, like you, don't like they way this system works, but if that's the way it is, then so be it. I have to keep reminding myself that Logos is a company in business to make a profit, so you can't blame them for that. I would do the same if I had a business. Why it works that way, I don't know - I think it would be cheaper to have a purchase done automated/online and to entice customers by offering discounts by ordering online.

I hope to muster some courage again to call a sales rep and hopefully save some money soon. "Better luck next time" they say.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195931#Comment_195931

if I am buying a Ford or Chevolet (or whatever!) from the same dealer year after year after year, I really should expect a better price.

That is why my family all purchase every car from the same dealer. He is a Ford dealer, and I even purchased my Chevy pickup from him. Of course, if this is true, Rosie should get new resources free—or nearly so. [8-|]

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195937#Comment_195937

My story, unfortunately is a little different. Last year around Christmas, I chose to make a couple of larger purchases (by my wallet's standards). I made my decision on a Friday evening, but due to reading about everyone saving money by calling a sales rep, I grudgingly waited until Monday morning to call instead of doing it online. When I called, hoping for a deal of any sorts, I was rather suprised when I didn't save a penny

Perhaps that particular resource was already priced at the lowest available cost. My Black Friday request resulted in 2 of my requested resources already being at that low point, so I had no discount for them.

Josh

Calling a sales rep (instead of using the website) apparently means you often get a discount. Not because you're
buying a whole bunch of resources (in which case it would make sense)
but simply because you picked up the phone instead of using the website.
I silently wonder how much money I could have saved if only I had
called Logos instead of loyally using their website?

To be honest I
think this kind of behaviour from an
otherwise very nice company is unfair and unjust. Most other online
dealers specifically ask you NOT to call them but to use their online
shop or, if need be, send an e-mail.

Does Logos prefer us to swamp
their phonelines? Should I, living in Scandinavia, also get accustomed
(as Mark Barnes slowly and reluctantly is doing - see quote below) order resources by phoning the
sales department rather than using the new website? How modern is that?
And more importantly, how fair is that?

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

Andreas Holmberg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195944#Comment_195944

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

Joshua,

Don't misinterpret me! I'm not angry and I don't feel ripped off. Those are your words.

On the contrary, like I wrote, I consider Logos to be a nice company. My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly. The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant! Logos is nothing like the local car dealer. Logos is a big company with a customer base of some 750.000 users. And, may I point out, a lot of worldwide users, not just users in the USA.

To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195937#Comment_195937

The particular items I bought were on sale, so that may be why I wasn't offered a discount, but I figured he would have told me that, if that was the case.

There are times where we customers may be aware of a special the sales force has not been made aware of. It would be nice if they knew everything going on everywhere regarding special deals but they don't because the sale force is very busy helping customers.

There have been many occasions where my salesman Dave Kaplan has sold me products at a price I could not get directly from the web site. There have also been a few times where Logos makes a direct special offer or sale (like the March Madness price of Works of Francis Schaeffer) that goes lower than any salesman is authorized to go. Even the current Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale has certain titles with little or no discount.

Try again.

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195948#Comment_195948

I like the way Logos does things. Of course, I also like getting discounts. It seems to me that you are only anger at this system because you feel you have been ripped off. However, just because you could have gotten a better price doesn't mean the price you paid was unfair or a rip off.

Joshua,

Don't misinterpret me! I'm not angry and I don't feel ripped off. Those are your words.

On the contrary, like I wrote, I consider Logos to be a nice company. My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly. The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant! Logos is nothing like the local car dealer. Logos is a big company with a customer base of some 750.000 users. And, may I point out, a lot of worldwide users, not just users in the USA.

To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

Every time I read the parable of the laborers in the vineyard (Matthew 20:1–34) I can't help but feel the laborers who worked longer got treated unfairly. [:O]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195948#Comment_195948

My concern is that Logos should also be a company that treats all of its customers fairly.

What is unfair about the way any one has been treated? Matthew 20:15
If someone buys the cheapest Logos base package they get the same excellent service and support from Logos that a Portfolio owner gets.

The comparison (that others have applied) with the local car dealer just isn't relevant!

Why not?
If the #1 fast food restaurant wants to buy chicken they usually get it at a better price per lb. than you or I.

Earlier this year I calculated the current Logos sales prices (not suggested retail) of my resource library. It was a substantial investment of $**K. There is nothing immoral about offering generous sales prices to faithful customers. I suspect if the truth be known, Logos has offered software to some students or missionaries for much cheaper prices than they sell it to me. I am fine with that. Nothing unfair about it.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195948#Comment_195948

To me, it's simply old fashioned and suprising that a technological top notch company like Logos should offer different prices depending on how you order your product, who you talk to, and when you talk to him/her.

I have to agree with that. On the one hand, I enjoy having discounts, now I know how things work, on the other hand, it still doesn't seem fair.

Note: I don't mind different users being given prices. It seems reasonable to me that there might be (for example) a special offer on a title by a publisher if you own other titles by that publisher, or perhaps better prices given to long-term users or users with large libraries. But I don't like the same user being given different prices depending who happens to answer the phone.

Equally, I don't mind different channels offering different pricing structures, but I do mind this not being clear. Save 10% if you buy on-line is very common. It the Logos website said: "Click to buy now, or telephone to see if we can offer you an even better deal", that would be fine, too. But it doesn't, and that's one of the reasons it seems unfair, because users 'in the know' may pay less than others (even more so because it's counter-intuitive - logic would state that the best price should be one that doesn't involve salaried staff).

So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

The best prices are to be found in Community Price, Pre-Pub and Academic Sales, in that order. You'll almost never beat these prices, even if you phone up.
You can nearly always get 10%-15% off base packages.
On other products, there's no guarantee at all that you will get a discount. I don't want this thread to give false hopes. But you're more likely to get a discount if:
- You're not buying a boxed product, or a product from a publisher who also sells the product themselves.
- You're buying a collection and you already have some resources in the collection.
- You're buying multiple resources in one purchase.
- You're a good customer (whatever that means). I'm guessing at this one, but it does seem to me that discounts that I've been offered have improved slowly over time.
I've not noticed any difference in price whether I email or phone.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195966#Comment_195966

So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

Good summary.

When is the video coming out on this?? [;)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195966#Comment_195966

I generally don't call...only sometimes if it's a huge purchase...

I called to get Logos for a relative of mine recently and didn't get any price break...only a referral credit which would not have come from buying online....

that's my experience...no extra discounts..just a nice sales person DAVE KAPLAN!

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195966#Comment_195966

I buy most of my items from CP and Pre-Pub (at least until the "Great House Repair season of 2010" hit [:'(] ).

I would much prefer purchasing from the website, but the perception has been built for me that doing so for a "normal resource" is not likely to be the cheapest cost for me--add to that the need for sales agent intervention in order to quickly update the online license for pre-L4 resources (although that is thankfully getting rarer now).

Since I get most of my hankerin' for new resources on the weekends, that means I'll probably be able to overcome impulse buys [;)] as I wait for harmony between Logos sales agent hours and my availability.

If quantity of (historical?) purchases is the factor that most contributes to potential telephonic discounts, I'd hope this could be built into the website logic (perhaps as a separate "frequent purchaser" discount?).

I can certainly understand the challenges a phone-based ordering methodology poses to those who don't reside in timezones of the Americas.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195966#Comment_195966

I think it would be nice if Logos moved to an everyday low price model instead of periodic sales and special discounts if you call a sales rep. I believe it would do a lot to increase sales in the long run. I can understand why a salesperson would have an incentive to discount their special customers since it would increase their remuneration by building customer loyalty. However, I think the company would be better served by offering better deals to everyone that buys, no matter what channel they use. It is obvious to me that there is a lot of interest in getting lower prices evidenced by the tremendous response to the recent Black Friday sale.

Phillip Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195972#Comment_195972

Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

If I feel the price is too high for me at the time then I hang on in there, hoping it will pop up in one of the periodic promotions. That's how I bagged the excellent Word Biblical Commentary and Hermeneia after a bit of waiting. It would never have occured to me to call the sales dept and ask whether they could improve on the price shown on the Logos website, though perhaps I should have been less reticent.

Being invited to pitch for three products this weekend reduced the embarassment, and I'm delighted by the discount I got on the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. I can understand that when you have already spent a few thousand dollars (or pounds), and are showing interest in further resources, Logos might be inclined to cut you a deal to reward you for your loyalty and keep you coming back for more. And there are SO many resources I could be adding to my collection...

Still, if my British reticence means that a discount I might have obtained by calling sales allows Logos to offer a bible student or missioner a really sweet deal then I'm not going to fret.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195979#Comment_195979

Still, if my British reticence means that a discount I might have obtained by calling sales allows Logos to offer a bible student or missioner a really sweet deal then I'm not going to fret.

That's a great perspective. Thanks.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195980#Comment_195980

Phillip! *smile*

Yes! Well-spoken!

Peace to you

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195979#Comment_195979

Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

That is interesting and informative. I don't think any of my acquaintances here in the US are even a little bit embarrassed at asking for a discount, even at a fast food restaurant. [8-|] (Some of them give us old folks discounts)

Martin Folley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195979#Comment_195979

Perhaps it IS a British thing after all. There is an inbuilt embarassment at asking whether I can have a product for less than it is shown on the website or promotional email.

Agreed ... Britishness and inconvenience of the time zones but ....

If I feel the price is too high for me at the time then I hang on in there, hoping it will pop up in one of the periodic promotions

There have been many instance of 'insider offers' where certain people have had email offers that were not public offers. These offers contained a 'do not disclose this' clause. I am not sure if these came from the sales reps themselves. So ... hanging on in there and waiting for the offer is also an issue since the offer might never come!. I have still not seen anything that identifies how these lucky few are chosen to receive these offers.

I do not know if, for example, I would be considered a 'high value'
customer. I do not even know if that is part of the Logos criteria. I
have about 2200 resources, based on platinum, gathered over the last
four plus years.

Personally, in this sale, I asked for three items, got 20%-30% offers, and took them. If I were to receive other such offers, I would seriously consider those as well (Mrs. F is amazingly generous on this one). I wait for the offers! I am grateful for what is offered rather than what I perceive that I have missed, looking at what others have is never a good approach.

So in a minor attempt to make things clear for others, here's what my experience has taught me (YMMV):

The best prices are to be found in Community Price, Pre-Pub and
Academic Sales, in that order. You'll almost never beat these prices,
even if you phone up.

You can nearly always get 10%-15% off base packages.

On other products, there's no guarantee at all that you will get a
discount. I don't want this thread to give false hopes. But you're more
likely to get a discount if:
You're not buying a boxed product, or a product from a publisher who also sells the product themselves.

You're buying a collection and you already have some resources in the collection.

You're buying multiple resources in one purchase.

You're a good customer (whatever that means). I'm guessing at this
one, but it does seem to me that discounts that I've been offered have
improved slowly over time.

I've not noticed any difference in price whether I email or phone.

I agree with all of Mark's experience ... it keeps me coming back ... although I have not gone so far as the last one, and probably never will ... not out of principle but out of reticence to initiate such a conversation.

Brad Fry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196079#Comment_196079

For me it's all about convenience and getting on with my study. I love the simplicity and convenience of a few clicks and I've got my new resource. I'd like to be able to do that and know that I'm getting the best price possible. If Logos can automatically check to see what my discount would be on an upgrade they can automatically check my order history as a customer. Logos is still the best thing since buttered biscuits. I just think they could do better by those of us who prefer to order online.

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196080#Comment_196080

I email my sales rep with my orders and he takes care of them for me.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/195926#Comment_195926

I think the average user mainly invests in a basic package...a few hundred to several hundred dollars, not enough to make a substantial downpayment on a house.

Part of the problem is the inherent unfairness of this insider system. It breeds distrust.

The fact is that there are many customers who have spent thousands of dollars on their Logos products, but have been unaware of the "insider" discounts. They assume that price offered on the web page is their best deal, and thus over pay. Logos does not advertise that you can call up and get a better deal.

Logos has the right to operate any way they want. However, this method of operating does impact me. I feel far less loyalty to Logos. I feel somewhat ripped off - especially when I see people getting products for $100 to $ 200 less than I paid. One response to this is to buy Logos resources first from third parties, auctions, etc. where they are often cheaper anyway. And where the price given you is generally the same for all.

Pat Flanakin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196131#Comment_196131

Fair? Fair? There is only One...I am sure you would agree..who is fair.

Logos is perfectly within their right to charge you such and such a price, then me another price, because that is where they thing the market is which is between you and me. Whether they are charging a fair price is between them and management/ and the Lord for individuals making those pricing decisions. They are well aware that if you charge too much, people stop buying...too little, then no profit at all.

Perhaps you recall the parable of the talents where the laborers who labored all day were given the same as those who only worked an hour. They negotiated their pay and it was done. Same goes here.

I would only suggest you respect business for being business and not superimpose fairness concepts that do not apply biblically.

Chuck Hawkins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196131#Comment_196131

I am a new Logos user, less than 3 months. I made the switch to Logos because I was looking for a better software package that could meet my study needs. I have used several popular brands throughout the years, none really sold me on functionality, usability, or on resource development.

Since switching to Logos I have mixed feelings about some of their "ethical" business practices when it comes to sales. I don't like the fact that things aren't out in the open and across the board for every customer. To "me" it gives the "appearance" of shady, under the table, good buddy deals. I don't think it is a good business practice. I think my money is just as good as the next persons money. If you reward one customer by passing on savings, then pass it on to the other customers as well.

I have "NEVER" liked commission based sales. I don't care if it creates competition withing the sales staff and it saves the company some money on hourly employees. Make them hourly employees and create incentive bonus for them to sale. I think commission based sales breeds shady deals along with distrust among the customer base.

I was very disappointed with Logos when I found out that I could have saved over a $100 on my base package if I would have called a sales rep. That's money that I could have used to invest in additional resources.

As far as the Logos product, I have really enjoyed using it so far; however, I am apprehensive about spending any more of my money with them because the distrust I feel they have created.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196136#Comment_196136

Logos is perfectly within their right to charge you such and such a price, then me another price

Did you not read my post? I think I said that Logos has the right to do this.

But just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it either "fair", right, or ethical.

I would only suggest you respect the right of others to disagree. Try a little less self-righteousness. Logos has the right to do what they want. I have the right to feel about it as I want.

I would think that they would be interested in how their present policy is perceived.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196164#Comment_196164

Not really responding to anyone in particular, but to this thread in general.

First, let me say that I've been a Logos customer for years and have spent a lot of money purchasing resources. Note that by "a lot of money" I'm speaking about what I, not Logos may consider "a lot."

I have purchased many, many resources via the web site, mostly community pricing and pre-pubs, but other resources as well. I had heard of some calling Logos sales, but didn't understand the depth of the discounts that seem to be routinely offered to customers who call in. However, even though I heard about people getting better deals by calling sales (since before the forum days, and many, many times on these forums), I still made purchases via the web site. So I will say mea culpa for not investigating this path to greater savings, of which I was informed, albeit not from directly from Logos.

It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

But is it wise? It is wise, if Logos prefers to build relationships with its customers, rather than simply do business with them. It's not wise from a strictly financial perspective (IMHO), since (I assume) web purchasing costs less (in the long run) than purchasing via an employee. So the point is debatable. Secondly, it is unwise if the expectation is that the best deals are on the web site, or that these prices are somehow deceptive, since one can get a better deal by speaking with a sales rep. From this discussion, we could conclude that this is an unwise, at least for these folks and others who share their expectations.

One other factor here, that I'm reminded of from my missionary days, is that an individual or company that seeks to increase employment, even when they could cut costs is acting more Christianly than a company that is merely concerned with the bottom line. So, looking for ways to employ more people by creating a sales department and creating a market for that sales department by offering better deals, would look like a noble and Christian thing to do in many, many cultures. Also the concept of building relationships with customers is seen as both expected and good (even though that concept is exploited by some), and, IMHO, a more Christian model than just taking money and giving stuff without so much as a "hello." In other words, I think much of the problem with this sales model is cultural, more than moral/ethical.

Finally, I'm wondering whether this whole Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale was designed with the intention of informing us of the sales department, and the deeper discounts we can get through a sales rep, all while providing an opportunity for us to save some money. It shows Logos commitment to this model, and has changed my mind about how I'll do future purchases (outside of community pricing and pre-pub's, of course - which are not available through the sales department). I also look forward to getting to know my sales rep a bit better. He seems like a great guy. I'm glad he's got a job with such a great company.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196183#Comment_196183

Again, responding to no-one in particular, but I want to re-iterate something I said earlier. You want always get discounts from sales staff, and even when you get them, they'll rarely be spectacular. I don't want people to feel they've been 'wasting' thousands or even hundreds of dollars by ordering on-line. If you spend $1,000/year on Logos, and half of that is on pre-pubs (no extra discount), it's unlikely you would have saved more than $50-$75 by phoning (perhaps 20% discounts on one or two items, probably none on others). $50 is still not to be sniffed at, but I don't want to leave the impression that there's an untapped gold mine out there.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196183#Comment_196183

It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

Good observations Richard. When shopping in Mexico you are expected to "haggle" over prices. It is also the norm when buying electronics in Japan. Some cultures are offended when the customer buys without "haggling." Other countries, usually socialist economies, have price controls and are easily recognized by their lack of quality products like Logos Bible Software and fine luxury automobiles.

One can buy the same candy bar at an expensive price from "convenience stores" or a cheaper price from a warehouse market. Clicking on the Logos website is convenient. Calling or emailing a sales person takes a little time. But interacting with my salesman instead of a website, I have the satisfaction of feeling like family. And it is easier to brief the sales staff on new special offers than it is to update their prices among 10,000 product description pages.

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196164#Comment_196164

I have "NEVER" liked commission based sales. I don't care if it creates competition withing the sales staff and it saves the company some money on hourly employees. Make them hourly employees and create incentive bonus for them to sale. I think commission based sales breeds shady deals along with distrust among the customer base.

I worked in Christian publishing for over 20 years.

For over 12 of those years, I was a "commission" sales rep calling on bookstores. Many of the buyers that I called on shared your apprehension about commission sales reps. There have been some unethical commission salesmen that have given commission sales a bad name. I guarantee you that they won't last long.

I quickly learned that all sales people work on commission--regardless of how their compensation is described. If you don't make enough sales, you don't have a job. It doesn't matter what kind of company you are working for. No company can afford to pay sales people who don't produce sales for the company.

I have seen unethical sales practices by both types of salesmen. Any salesman (regardless of the way he is compensated) who wants to be able to sell on a regular long-term basis to his customers must have integrity. If he does not produce happy customers, he isn't going to have a job for long.

We should have no problem with whatever method that Logos chooses to compensate its sales personnel. The Bible speaks clearly of fairly compensating those who labor. They are worthy of their reward.

Chuck Hawkins

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196213#Comment_196213

Let me just say that I appreciate Logos for providing resources to help improve my study time. They have the best selections of resources that I have seen. I'm sure I could have saved more money if I would have learned about them years ago. The product is amazing, and it has saved me so much time in my preparations. I suppose that I should have kept to my policy of never airing my disappointments. I have made an inside sales contact that seems really helpful and is willing to do whatever possible to keep the me coming back. I guess we live in cultural setting here in the U.S. where customer service and sales has gone out the window, well almost.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196183#Comment_196183

Not really responding to anyone in particular, but to this thread in general.

First, let me say that I've been a Logos customer for years and have spent a lot of money purchasing resources. Note that by "a lot of money" I'm speaking about what I, not Logos may consider "a lot."

I have purchased many, many resources via the web site, mostly community pricing and pre-pubs, but other resources as well. I had heard of some calling Logos sales, but didn't understand the depth of the discounts that seem to be routinely offered to customers who call in. However, even though I heard about people getting better deals by calling sales (since before the forum days, and many, many times on these forums), I still made purchases via the web site. So I will say mea culpa for not investigating this path to greater savings, of which I was informed, albeit not from directly from Logos.

It seems to me there are two questions debated here: first, is this practice moral; second, is it wise. As to morality, I don't see anything here that seems deceptive, coercive, greedy, or anything else about this kind of thing. In many countries, getting a discount by building a relationship and talking with someone is the expected practice. In the U.S. it is the expected practice when buying a car, and is becoming more frequent when buying other things as well (especially electronics). So, while it may not be expected, it's not immoral, IMHO.

But is it wise? It is wise, if Logos prefers to build relationships with its customers, rather than simply do business with them. It's not wise from a strictly financial perspective (IMHO), since (I assume) web purchasing costs less (in the long run) than purchasing via an employee. So the point is debatable. Secondly, it is unwise if the expectation is that the best deals are on the web site, or that these prices are somehow deceptive, since one can get a better deal by speaking with a sales rep. From this discussion, we could conclude that this is an unwise, at least for these folks and others who share their expectations.

One other factor here, that I'm reminded of from my missionary days, is that an individual or company that seeks to increase employment, even when they could cut costs is acting more Christianly than a company that is merely concerned with the bottom line. So, looking for ways to employ more people by creating a sales department and creating a market for that sales department by offering better deals, would look like a noble and Christian thing to do in many, many cultures. Also the concept of building relationships with customers is seen as both expected and good (even though that concept is exploited by some), and, IMHO, a more Christian model than just taking money and giving stuff without so much as a "hello." In other words, I think much of the problem with this sales model is cultural, more than moral/ethical.

Finally, I'm wondering whether this whole Black Friday/Cyber Monday sale was designed with the intention of informing us of the sales department, and the deeper discounts we can get through a sales rep, all while providing an opportunity for us to save some money. It shows Logos commitment to this model, and has changed my mind about how I'll do future purchases (outside of community pricing and pre-pub's, of course - which are not available through the sales department). I also look forward to getting to know my sales rep a bit better. He seems like a great guy. I'm glad he's got a job with such a great company.

Calling a sales rep every time that you place an order seems counterproductive since:

1. You are tying up a phone line resulting in longer hold times.

2. You are requiring Logos to eventually hire more sales reps to take calls.

3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

4. You are probably increasing the price of resources since more staff is required resulting in increased overhead.

Am I wrong here? Doesn't buying electronically help to keep costs down?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196272#Comment_196272

Calling a sales rep every time that you place an order seems counterproductive since:

1. You are tying up a phone line resulting in longer hold times.

The sales department is separate from the support department, so it is counterproductive only in terms of sales. But if you have an email address for a sales rep, you should get the same price quote you would over the phone.

2. You are requiring Logos to eventually hire more sales reps to take calls.

I discussed that in my post too. Overall, that's a good thing, I think.

3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

Only if you can show that this program has an overall negative effect on profits, rather than a positive one. It's often true that we'll spend more in a place when we know the sales staff that works there. So even if Logos sells certain items more expensively, if they sell more of them than otherwise, they'll come out ahead.

4. You are probably increasing the price of resources since more staff is required resulting in increased overhead.

Once again, this is only true if you can show that the increase in staff has an overall negative affect on Logos' profits. Maybe you've seen Logos' books. I haven't, but I know that they have a business model that works amazingly well. They're doing something right.

Am I wrong here? Doesn't buying electronically help to keep costs down?

I think the same way -- at least this seems intuitive to me, even obvious. Yet, Logos seems to keep hiring sales reps, which tells me that the ones they have are more than making up for their wages and other benefits.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196280#Comment_196280

3. You are cutting Logos margins by getting lower prices resulting in higher prices for resources for everyone else.

Only if you can show that this program has an overall negative effect on profits, rather than a positive one. It's often true that we'll spend more in a place when we know the sales staff that works there. So even if Logos sells certain items more expensively, if they sell more of them than otherwise, they'll come out ahead.

I can only speak from my own experience, but since I found out about establishing a relationship with a sales rep (in January of this year), the amount of money I've spent on Logos resources has skyrocketed. I'd been a customer since 1992 but had only bought a few extra reference works beyond my base package. Now I'm on the website all the time looking for more things I want to buy and making a list to email my sales rep about.

I still buy products via the website once in a while, when I needed something right now and can't wait until business hours. The convenience and instantaneous results are worth paying a bit more for.

I think Logos knows what they are doing. It seems like good business to establish long-term relationships with customers who will keep coming back for more. Not only do they reward us for our loyalty, but we also reward them by continuing to be good customers. It's a win-win situation.

Paul Strickert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196283#Comment_196283

If I may ask, Rosie, how much $ do you estimate you've saved by going through a sales rep?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/196283#Comment_196283

So, who are the BEST sales reps in everyone's estimation? And why??