Hebrew definitions in the Mac version
I don't know the number of people that have a working knowledge of Hebrew, or are interested in learning it. I have Logos 4 in both the Mac and PC. Lion and Windows 7, respectively.
One can get a definition from a Hebrew word by double-clicking on it. The Mac version behaves differently, some words it will give the definition, on others it won't. I found out why it won't on the Mac, this behavior doesn't happen on the PC. By right-clicking on the word, and selecting "Lemma" again, one won't get the definitions for certain words. But by looking at the lemma, one can see why.
1 לְדָוִד מַשְׂכִּיל אַשְׁרֵי נְשׂוּי־פֶּשַׁע כְּסוּי חֲטָאָה׃
2 אַשְׁרֵי אָדָם לֹא יַחְשֹׁב יְהוָה לוֹ עָוֹן וְאֵין בְּרוּחוֹ רְמִיָּה׃
The letter is the correct letter, the Mem (the Hebrew M). But the form is the ending form of Mem. Which, used in the middle of a word would not parse to the dictionary/lexicon definition which has the correct spelling.
That is like writing gOd instead of God. Anyone who knows a little about the ASCII/ANSI/UNICODE's use of numbers internally for the letters will should know that the small "m" and the capital "M" are not the same internally. Capital M is 77 in ANSI character code (77 Unicode also, 0X4D ANSI hex, U+004D Unicode hex). The small m is 109 in ANSI and Unicode (0X6D ANSI hex, U+006D Unicode hex).
People might wonder how Windows and Mac display other character sets, such as Chinese or Arabic. They are contained in the fonts themselves, but not all fonts, just the Unicode fonts [In Windows they have an O instead of the TT -which stands for True Type].
With both Windows and Mac one can see the Character Maps (also in Microsoft Word). That is why one can paste a passage in Hebrew or Greek into Word (Word for Mac does not work with the Hebrew keyboard, but TextEdit which comes with Mac will; however if one pastes Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, or Arabic in Word, it will display correctly) and after one pastes the Hebrew of Greek, etc. passage one can change the fonts, and they will display with the fonts that have the extra characters - Times New Roman, Arial Unicode MS, Tahoma, Courier New, etc.
Anyway, the final Mem (ם) is not the same character than the beginning or middle Mem (מ). That is why the definition is not given. But the issue I have is this: Mac users should have full use of all their Hebrew dictionaries. Not a stunted form. I have experimented and found that every word that does not give the Hebrew definition in the Mac had one of the Hebrew letters that have a different final ending (Greek only has one, the S - σ at the beginning or middle, ς at the end of a word).
Furthermore, the Strong's definitions will display, because they are keyed to numbers. Remiyah is OT Strong's number 7423, for instance.
They are still befuddled at Logos, even though I told them in December or so (2011). Something happens with the Mac version that changes the letter in the lemma to the ending!
Comments
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Homer Russell said:
Something happens with the Mac version that changes the letter in the lemma to the ending!
Welcome [:D]
Wondering about Hebrew resource(s) and Hebrew font (e.g. personally using SBL Hebrew) ?
Wondering about Logos 4 Mac version ?
Curious about a screenshot for illustration ?
Edit: if using stable Logos 4 release, suggest contacting Logos Tech Support => http://www.logos.com/about/contact
Apologies: using Logos 4.5c Beta 3 (4.53.0.2109) and Logos 4.5a SR-1 (4.51.0.2057) on Mac OS X 10.6.8 am unable to replicate since can double click on a word (or use right click, then choose lemma, followed by clicking a lexicon with lemma headword):
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I've checked Ps 32:2 in all my Hebrew Bibles, and they all display the correct mem, so I would echo the question about what Bible and what font you are using?
Also, next time, could you please insert some paragraph breaks here and there. It's incredibly tiresome to read a huge block of text like that.
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Believe me that I put carriage returns, but they disappeared when I posted it. I agree a large block of text is hard to read.
But it does give me encouragement to know that that problem does not have to happen, others not having it.
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I have SBL Hebrew, by the way.
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I am using the SBL Hebrew, I do have a Mac Mini, with 8GB of RAM.
Now, I got to figure out why my computer does this!
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The Hebrew Bible is the BHS, by the way.
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I just noticed that if I use the Anderson-Forbes Analyzed text, it will give me the correct definition. Still, as you can see by the screen shot I posted, the final Mem is in the middle of the word REMIYAH.
I used this example, but if a word has an Ayin or Tzadey or Nun, etc. etc. in the beginning or middle, the lemma shows the ending form, and will not display the definition. It is amazing that it is not jus putting an erroneous letter, but another form of the very letter! I still don't get it.
Thanks for your screenshot!
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I notice two odd things on your screenshot:
- though Lemma is incorrect, Selection looks correct.
- your Lemma is different to mine in more ways than just the mem, and your Morph is different too::
I generally stay away from font issue questions, but to me that suggests you're using a different BHS than I am, and I'm beginning to suspect it's an older, outdated, one.
Click on the little circled i up to the right and post a screenshot of the Support info. It should look something like this:
As for the formatting here, I suggest always using the Preview function before posting. (You can still edit, by the way. Click More>Edit. You have about 10 hours from posting.)
(You must have some great language skills; I think I counted to 9 languages on that screenshot!)
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Hello, I'm just posting so I can find this thread find it easy on Monday in the case that the book is up to date, and the same version of BHS.
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It is true that I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1, I have the Scholar's Library, and I have noticed that the BHS WIVU and the BHS AFAT do give me the correct results. That must be part of the culprit. But I still wonder why it chooses to do that, that is, show the correct letter in an incorrect form.
I think the reason the first post won't let me do the paragraphs right is because I pasted from the Right To Left text. My Yahoo email also acts odd when I paste Hebrew in it.
Right now, I am delving more in Arabic, being a sister language to Hebrew, and reading the Peshitta with the Estrangelo font, both Syriac and Arabic look funny, but are very close to Hebrew. Egypt is Misr in Arabic, Mitsrayim in Hebrew, for instance. Knowing English and Spanish since youth, French, Italian, Portugese, German, and Latin are easy to deduce. In top of that, Spanish has Arabic influences from the Moors. Shirt is "camisa" in Spanish, "kemis" in Arabic. And since Arabic is similar to Hebrew, for instance wall is "pared" in Spanish, "pered" is separation (a wall is a separation) in Hebrew. Or, how is "como" in Spanish, "kemo" in Hebrew.
Of course, when one uses different letters, the same words can look different. Thus I intend to tackle Chinese also, a hieroglyphic language. It looks real funny written, but has a logic spoken (as in Chinese movies). I was saved in a Chinese church in Houston, the pastor would preach in English, Mandarin and Cantonese. Mandarin and Cantonese use the same script, are not the same language. So that a Cantonese speaking Chinese, and a Mandarin speaking Chinese can read the same words and understand them, but not understand each other.
Got off track a little. But the same BHS displayed correctly in Windows. Same in Libronix for Windows, it always gave me the correct definition. I will send another screen shot, because it still amazes me that it even does what it does. (The Mac lemma thing, in my BHS WIVU, the lemma looks like your screen shot.)
Thank you for your input.
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Here the example has the Pe displaying the final form in the middle of a word.
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Oh, and I just realized, because I did it quickly, that the Mem at the beginning is also final Mem!
The word should spell: משפט of course.
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Homer Russell said:
It is true that I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1
Curious about BHS resource support information ? (click "i" then scroll down)
Apologies: newer BHS (3.5, 4.0, 4.2 and WIVU), AFAT, and LHI have correct spelling. Suspect older BHS resource has a typographical error.
Homer Russell said:I think the reason the first post won't let me do the paragraphs right is because I pasted from the Right To Left text.
Observation: when the forum editor starts using div tags, then text can run together. At times, have clicked "HTML" button so could change div to p (paragraph).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I know that the BHS that I have is old, I did click on the i and saw the info. But it still does not explain why the Mac behaved erroneously and the PC correctly, both using the identical resource.
I know that BibleWorks updates its own databases, me having the Scholar's Library, if the BHS had been updated, my BHS should have been updated also.
I know that the BHS WIVU and AFAT are different, but the humble BHS should still give the correct dictionary definitions.
Yes, I will use the WIVU and AFAT more, but the idea was that all my highlighting (I have been highliting OT citations from the NT, starting with 1Cor, 2Cor, Hebrews, Romans, and now Matthew) had been done in the BHS and I either do it over or keep it.
Anyway, thanks for your input. I am convinced (and have talked with tech support twice, and emailed them a number of times with screenshots, etc.) that it has nothing to do with the fonts, database, etc. But probably something to do with the way OS Lion handles Hebrew, I have 3 Hebrew keyboards - Hebrew, Hebrew PC, and Hebrew QERTY installed on the Mac.
Having programed a little in C++, Visual Basic, Java, C#, and Object Pascal, I would like to see the code that handles the mapping of the lemma to the dictionary databases. How it actually parses the Hebrew conjugations to the root words, and thus getting a definition.
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For instance, Mem's unicode character is U+05DE, מ.
Final Mem's unicode character is U+05DD, ם.
Interestingly, the Hebrew Mem is where the letter N is on a QWERTY keyboard (US).
The Hebrew final Mem is where the O is on the keyboard. On the keyboard they are not next to each other, but character code wise they are.
Off by just one hex number are all the final letters; right now I am looking at "Unicode an HTML for the Hebrew alphabet" in Wikipedia. They have a number of charts and one can plainly see that the Kaf is right next to final Kaf, the Tsadey is right next to the final Tsadey, etc. etc.
I think the answer is in the hex. All hexadecimal digits translate excellently to binary, one zero or one is being shifted. After all, all a computer really reads is machine code, which is binary.
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FYI, bit shifting is used by advanced programmers. Using 32 bit numbers, there are 32 combinations of zeros and ones that can be inverted or shifted. One can have a 16 bit number, and do something with the first 8 bits and then something else with the last 8 bits.
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Homer Russell said:
I have had that BHS since Logos 2.1
Logos 2 was a Windows only program, so if the file truly is from those days, and hasn't been updated later, you should probably be happy that it works at all, as it wasn't coded to work on Mac.
Please post the full support info that we have now asked for several times, so that we can see exactly what file it is you have. How is anyone supposed to be able to find out for you if there is an updated file or not, if you won't tell us what it is you have?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Homer Russell said:
I know that the BHS that I have is old, I did click on the i and saw the info.
Curious about BHS resource information ? possibly last modified on 22 Mar 2006 ?
Looking at ftp://ftp.logos.com/LbxBooks/ noticed Logos has 12 BHQ and BHS resources.
Logos offers => German Bible Society Bundle that has BHS and BHQ with apparatus
Homer Russell said:But it still does not explain why the Mac behaved erroneously and the PC correctly, both using the identical resource.
Wiki Mac and PC User Interface Differences has => Feature Parity list with a number of items where Logos 4 on Mac and PC are different. Typically items have been added to list after being confirmed by two (or more) Logos 4 users along with link to forum thread discussing issue that tend to have Logos 4 screen shot(s) for illustration.
Technical Note: PC user interface code uses Windows Presentation Foundation (WPF) while Mac uses Objective C, which is being revamped => Reminder about 4.5c UI implementation changes so current Logos 4.5c Beta has a number of buggy display issues that are being discussed in Mac Beta forum.
Homer Russell said:Having programed a little in C++, Visual Basic, Java, C#, and Object Pascal, I would like to see the code that handles the mapping of the lemma to the dictionary databases. How it actually parses the Hebrew conjugations to the root words, and thus getting a definition.
Logos is hiring => http://www.logos.com/about/careers Software developers can work in Bellingham, WA or Phoenix, AZ => http://blog.logos.com/2011/12/logos-opens-phoenix-development-office/
Logos supports a number of Hebrew morphological tagging schemes, which have a variety of homograph numbering schemes. Bob Pritchett (CEO) posted => Status: Hebrew Audio Pronunciations Pre-Pub that confirms Hebrew lemma code mapping is complicated.
Homer Russell said:FYI, bit shifting is used by advanced programmers.
By the way, the ASCII and EBCDIC difference between upper and lower case is a space (for 7 bit and 8 bit character sets). XOR a space changes case.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Homer Russell said:
I am using the SBL Hebrew, I do have a Mac Mini, with 8GB of RAM.
That is the font. Fonts are interchangeable if the fonts include the same languages (Don't try to use Wingdings for Hebrew). If your BHS does indeed have final mem in the middle of רמיח ,I would recommend that you submit a typo report. It must, however, be more than simply the surface text since the surface text could be wrong and the lemma still be correct so be sure to note that the lemma appears to be wrong. Since I use Windows, I can't confirm your problem with your MAC version.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Above is the information.
Logos Bible Software 4.5b SR-3 (4.52.0.2208) is the Logos version.
Mac version 10.7.4.
I am new to this, but I will say that I do not consider myself happy that it works at all. I have upgrades Logos 4 three times, now I have the Scholar's Library. I see a difference between a license and a file. I might have had the license for the BHS since '97 or whenever it was; but that does not mean that the file itself could have been updated for whatever reasons.
The program itself should be responsible for the way the books display. Logos 2.1 might have been for Windows, but I have Logos 4 in my Windows 7 HP, my Mac Mini with OS Lion, and my iPad and iPhone. My Logos 4 for Windows does not have that problem with the BHS, neither my iPad or iPhone (though the program is somewhat different, one has access to most of the books, as well as Vyrso, etc.
I had to manually install the books for my Libronix installation, using the same databases. But the Logos 4 which I upgraded to (never had version 3) just last November, installed the books that I had purchased from the web, not a CD, DVD or hard drive. It did this with my Windows, Mac, iPad, iPhone installation (the iPad/iPhone gives one the option to copy it to the device). So I don't see what Logos 2.1 has to do with anything. Every book I have I have purchased, and I expect it to work.
If others have the same BHS version, regardless of how old or new it is, in the Mac, and it does not behave as mine, it would show even more that it is not a problem with the BHS version. Although, I don't know if others have even had something remotely like what happened to me happen to them.
It is not a matter of the text, I have numerous versions of the Masoretic Text installed through Logos. If it is a matter of an updated database, I am looking forward to that.
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The text displays correctly. The problem is that in the words that have the letters that have a different final ending (M, N, K, etc.) the default dictionary (Gesenius in my case) would not display the definition only on my Mac.
But, on further examination, I noticed that when I right-clicked on the offending words, the Lemma would display the ending forms at the beginning or middle (the latest screenshot I showed that mishpat (judgement) was spelled םשףט instead of משפט. And so on with all the other instances that have the letters that have a different character for their final form.
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I have used only 2 examples, but my bug happens with every word that uses the final Mem, Kaf, Nun, Pe, etc.
Again the problem is not the misspelling, but the not giving a definition. The Bible text displays correctly.
Only a nut would use Wingdings, Times New Roman, Arial, etc. have the Hebrew and Greek characters inside (but not all fonts, actually, most don't).
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Homer Russell said:
Above is the information.
Logos Bible Software 4.5b SR-3 (4.52.0.2208) is the Logos version.
Mac version 10.7.4.
I believe I see what may be causing your problem. Even so, I don't understand why you have a problem. You have the old morphologically tagged BHS (no version number). The current version of BHS is 4.2. The problem with my theory is that my copy of the morphologically tagged BHS (no version) does not have a final mem in the medial position. In any case, I would suggest that you get the newer version since there are changes in the tagging. The current version is
LLS:1.0.197
2008-04-07T19:27:28Z
BHSWTS42.lbxllsgeorge
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Marvelous stuff. Thank you. I don't wish to program professionally, but do have a lot of curiosity.
Mac OS 10.7.4
The fascinating thing about my bug is that the lemma IS morphologically correct, no problem there. Just that the letters are in their final form, and no definition is given. Like the mishpat example משףט is the correct consonantal spelling of the word, But I am not surprised that the dictionary definition is not given for that spelling (misspelling) because that is not the way the word is written according to the norms of Hebrew spelling.
Here is a smile :-)
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I should have written םשףט this example has 2 instances!
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Homer Russell said:
Only a nut would use Wingdings, Times New Roman, Arial, etc. have the Hebrew and Greek characters inside (but not all fonts, actually, most don't).
Well, as the old add for Almond Joy and Mounds candy used to say "Sometimes you feel like a nut—sometimes you don't."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Here is another screen shot, just kept on scrolling, here is an example from Psalms 34:1 At first it looked like a Zayin in the middle; but it is a final Nun. The word is PANAH (to turn). פנה and not ףןה
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Where do I get the newer version?
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