Bug: Win 4.6 RC 1: Word Lists: Cards use Lemma column instead of Display - result: missing/erroneous data shown

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, Aug 29 2012 12:37 AM

1. Install vocab list for A Grammar for Biblical Hebrew (Seow) from http://www.logos.com/training/vocabularylists for Logos 3 following instructions under step 5 on that page.

2. In Logos 4, type Import Word Lists in the command line.

3. Restart Logos 4.

4. Open the newly imported word list.

5. Click "Cards" to view as cards instead of grid.

6. Keep the default settings of Letter, and 10 Cards.

Result: Notice that on page 2, the left card in the 4th row is blank. BUG!

7. Click back on Grid to see why.

Notice that the Lemma column is blank for this word, while Display shows קֹ֫דֶשׁ. Notice that there's another word that also has a different value in the Display column than the Lemma column, and confirm (by clicking Cards again) that this word too displays the Lemma rather than the Display version:

Diagnosis: The Lemma column is being displayed on the Flashcards instead of the Display column.

Expect: Display column should be used. I should think that's what it's for. Display, eh?

Extra info: I still have Logos 3 on my machine but can't test to see how it handled this, because I cannot seem to find the Vocabulary Lists option under File Open, even though the .lbxvl file is in the right folder (My Documents\Libronix DLS\VocabularyLists).

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 29 2012 1:28 AM

Rosie Perera:

Diagnosis: The Lemma column is being displayed on the Flashcards instead of the Display column.

Expect: Display column should be used. I should think that's what it's for. Display, eh?

Rosie,

I haven't gotten around to testing this, and I know nothing of Hebrew, but as I so far understand, the "display" column takes the words as they are displayed in the original text, i.e. conjugated verb forms etc, (at least that's what they show in the RI ribbons) while the lemma is the word form one might want to learn - is this wrong?

Based on this my understanding I'd expect the cards to show lemma to be by design and as should be, and the issue with the word lists is either a glitch in the original files or a bug in the import, as I'd assume that when the lists are taken from a textbook, display and lemma should be the same.

Am I wrong on this?

Mick

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 29 2012 2:22 AM

I suppose. But they were the ones who created the Seow word list (I presume) and they're using the Display field for how the words show up in the vocab lists in the book, which is how I worked on memorizing them when I took Hebrew with this textbook.

For example, here's the vocab list from Lesson 3 of Seow, with the Hebrew word for heart (or mind) circled:

Note that it is given with two variants.

And here's how it shows up in the Word List in Logos:

So far this is the only bit of playing around with Word Lists I've had time to do.

In the RI ribbons, the label for how the word shows up in the original text with all its conjugations and such is MSS (manuscript), which is different from how it shows up in a vocab list in a Hebrew grammar. It's basically a lemma form, but if there are variant spellings, those both appear (and I'd want to learn both of those when studying/memorizing). Here is another example which seems to support my theory as to what the Display field is for:

 

Then again, here's someone else who is confused about what the Display field is for: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/53773.aspx

And here's another thread that seems to find a different purpose for the Display field: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/53295.aspx

So perhaps Logos could enlighten us.

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Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 29 2012 2:47 PM

I've tried to pin down an answer to this and am getting some conflicting information.  I'm going to make a case to make sure the issue is examined and the correct behavior is occurring.  Regardless, the 'result' under step six, your screenshot of a blank card, is definitely a bug.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 29 2012 4:09 PM

Thanks. As NB.Mick points out, the only bug might be in the word list. The lemma field is blank for that word. I can fix it on my machine, but since the word list is provided by Logos, it should be corrected there too.

And if the rest of it is by design, then I'd put in a request to let the user choose which column (Lemma or Display) to show on the front of the Cards.

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 30 2012 2:52 AM

Rosie Perera:
the only bug might be in the word list. The lemma field is blank for that word.

While I haven't checked that particular list, I think the "bug" is in the import routine, or rather the inconsistent implementation of import as opposed to new-create. Let me explain what I think to know about this feature. I will use Greek instead of Hebrew examples. I have made bold everything that either is a bug or needs explanation from Logos.

 

  • If you create Word Lists from a bible, such as NA 27 and ESV (I'm using RC1 here: Logos Bible Software 4.6  (4.60.0.2972) ), it will 
    • fill the Lemma column with a Greek word in lemma form - somehow it derives them differently, giving different words and counts, this should be explained - 
    • and fill the Display column with English words that occur in the English bible - in case of a Greek-only source like NA27 it will duplicate the Gloss column to Display, that's unnecessary,  but okay for me - maybe a reminiscence to L3 which displayed only the display column in table view
    • fill the Count column (see above)
    • fill the Gloss column with glosses it takes somewhere I don't know (L3 had a feature to automatically add glosses to such lists, maybe someone knows where these came from). 
  • You end up with all columns - except section -  filled. Greek lemmas from the Greek text (different lists for the same passage, depending how you got it), some English glosses one may be tempted to learn, some counts (again differing) and as Display the English words that some translators chose for the respective passage in their work.       
  • If, however, you use "Import Word Lists", the result is quite different. I have a number of L3 Word Lists and L3 Vocabulary Lists (the latter mostly from the Logos page) and used this command as well as "Import All".
    • The command will import the L3 Word Lists, even though according to explanations given in the old PC Beta forum the L4 Word Lists actually are meant to be Vocabulary Lists. 
    • The command will import one or two L3 Vocabulary Lists, but not all (at least it didn't work for me). This is probably a real bug.
    • The resulting L4 Word Lists contain only the first gloss instead of all of them - this may come from L3 separating with comma, L4 with semicolon - at least that's how I get it displayed. This is probably another real bug.
    • The imported lists get what L3 called the Greek "word" into the Lemma column and the displayed words into the Display column and, if available, the first Gloss in the Gloss column (note that L3 Word Lists have neither lemma nor glosses, but only display-words)  
    • The imported lists get a "1" in the Count column instead of the number that was in the L3 list. This again seems to be a real bug.
  • in the second case you end up with Display filled with Greek words, a meaningless count, no or some lemmas and no or one gloss each.  

 

Rosie Perera:
I'd put in a request to let the user choose which column (Lemma or Display) to show on the front of the Cards

This is very sensible as in the L3-derived Word Lists the form you learn (with genitive case and article) is the display rather than the lemma column (which was optional in L3), whereas in L4-produced Word Lists the display column will be a) English and b) most often of limited use.

Although Bob claims that design precedes coding, this feature seems to show design shortcomings as well as buggy implementation. One would expect Logos to have decided what should be in which column. If we need two columns for Greek/Hebrew and English each, so be it. But the current thing doesn't help much. 

EDIT: put in the last sub-bullet with the Count bug.

EDIT2: To not confuse the design discussion with the bugs, I opened a separate thread which also has a screenshot of a Vocabulary list in L3 side by side with the imported Word List in L4: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53834/392386.aspx#392386 

Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 5:31 PM

NB.Mick:
fill the Lemma column with a Greek word in lemma form - somehow it derives them differently, giving different words and counts, this should be explained

There is a bug in how added words are generated, but if you could give a specific example of what you are referring to I could be more sure that it is the same thing.

NB.Mick:
and fill the Display column with English words that occur in the English bible - in case of a Greek-only source like NA27 it will duplicate the Gloss column to Display, that's unnecessary,  but okay for me - maybe a reminiscence to L3 which displayed only the display column in table view

This is a bug; I will verify that it has been reported.

NB.Mick:
fill the Gloss column with glosses it takes somewhere I don't know

The gloss column is generally populated from an internal database.

NB.Mick:
The command will import the L3 Word Lists, even though according to explanations given in the old PC Beta forum the L4 Word Lists actually are meant to be Vocabulary Lists.

The 'Import Word Lists' command will actually import both Word Lists and Vocabulary Lists by design.

NB.Mick:

  • The command will import one or two L3 Vocabulary Lists, but not all (at least it didn't work for me). This is probably a real bug.
  • The resulting L4 Word Lists contain only the first gloss instead of all of them - this may come from L3 separating with comma, L4 with semicolon - at least that's how I get it displayed. This is probably another real bug.
  • NB.Mick:
    The imported lists get a "1" in the Count column instead of the number that was in the L3 list. This again seems to be a real bug.

    I have responded to these three items on the other thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/53834.aspx

    NB.Mick:

  • The imported lists get what L3 called the Greek "word" into the Lemma column and the displayed words into the Display column and, if available, the first Gloss in the Gloss column (note that L3 Word Lists have neither lemma nor glosses, but only display-words) 
  • I'm not sure sure I understand what the issue is here. Maybe this is just a distinction you are making?

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    NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 31 2012 11:56 PM

    Thanks so much for your responses. I'll try to clarify the open questions.

    Tonya J Ross:

    NB.Mick:
    fill the Lemma column with a Greek word in lemma form - somehow it derives them differently, giving different words and counts, this should be explained

    There is a bug in how added words are generated, but if you could give a specific example of what you are referring to I could be more sure that it is the same thing.

    see this screenshot. It gives word lists 1 John 1, taken from three different translations plus UBS4/NA27. They all should have the same Greek text, but of course would produce different English words for the Display column. Or so I thought.

    How many kai are in 1 John 1 - are there 15, 16, 20, 22? Is ἡμεῖς a valid lemma, and if so, why only for NA 27?

    Tonya J Ross:

    NB.Mick:

  • The imported lists get what L3 called the Greek "word" into the Lemma column and the displayed words into the Display column and, if available, the first Gloss in the Gloss column (note that L3 Word Lists have neither lemma nor glosses, but only display-words) 
  • I'm not sure sure I understand what the issue is here. Maybe this is just a distinction you are making?

    Actually that's a distinction Logos is making, or at least was making in L3 times. The L3 lists actually only show the Display column which contains Greek words in the way they are learnt: substantives go with genetive and article, which gives away their grammatical gender and the declination paradigm they follow.

    An excerpt from the vocabulary list page

    Note the example below for how the 'Word' text box differs from the 'Display Form'. In Greek, it is customary to show the genitive form and the article of a noun on flashcards, as those extra pieces of information tell the Greek student everything he needs to know in order to make the rest of the forms of the noun. The full entry, with all these pieces of information, is put on the Display Form, while the simple lexical, or dictionary, form of the word is put in the Word text box. The Frequency text box is optional – this lets you record how common a word is, if that’s something you like to keep track of. Once you’ve filled in the Entry, click OK.

    The XML-File gives "word" (=lemma), "display", n (=count) and gloss/glosses.  This is the entry for lemma apostolos in the file for Basics of Biblical Greek:

    <entry>

    <word>ἀπόστολος</word>

    <display>ἀπόστολος, -ου, ὁ</display>

    <freq n="80"/>

    <gloss xml:lang="en-US">apostle</gloss>

    <gloss xml:lang="en-US">envoy</gloss>

    <gloss xml:lang="en-US">messenger</gloss>

    </entry>

    If I open it in Excel it may give me three rows for it:

    ἀπόστολος ἀπόστολος, -ου, ὁ 80 apostle
    ἀπόστολος ἀπόστολος, -ου, ὁ 80 envoy
    ἀπόστολος ἀπόστολος, -ου, ὁ 80 messenger

    For learners of Greek, the display form is the relevant one - so much so, that in Libronix time Logos choose to only display this form in Vocabulary Lists, hence the name (I posted this picture in the other thread as well): 

    This was a sensible design decision, but with calling this "Display" it referred to something completely different than the display of English words chosen in a specific translation. That's why I think you maybe need an additional column.

    Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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    Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 5 2012 6:55 PM

    NB.Mick:
    see this screenshot. It gives word lists 1 John 1, taken from three different translations plus UBS4/NA27. They all should have the same Greek text, but of course would produce different English words for the Display column. Or so I thought.

    I see what you mean now.  I believe this is covered by the active case I was referring to, but I've added a few more details to that case to be sure.

    NB.Mick:

    Tonya J Ross:

    NB.Mick:

  • The imported lists get what L3 called the Greek "word" into the Lemma column and the displayed words into the Display column and, if available, the first Gloss in the Gloss column (note that L3 Word Lists have neither lemma nor glosses, but only display-words) 
  • I'm not sure sure I understand what the issue is here. Maybe this is just a distinction you are making?

    Actually that's a distinction Logos is making, or at least was making in L3 times. The L3 lists actually only show the Display column which contains Greek words in the way they are learnt: substantives go with genetive and article, which gives away their grammatical gender and the declination paradigm they follow.

    The Display column should actually be populated with original language words and not English forms (since doing so it is largely duplicating the information from the Gloss column.)  There is an active case for that issue as well.

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    NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 5 2012 11:45 PM

    Thanks a lot!

    Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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    Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 6 2012 11:11 PM

    Tonya J Ross:
    The Display column should actually be populated with original language words and not English forms (since doing so it is largely duplicating the information from the Gloss column.)  There is an active case for that issue as well.

    NB.Mick kind of hijacked my thread. So how about my original bug diagnosis? Should it not be the Display column that shows up on the original language side of the flash cards? Or at least shouldn't the user have the option to choose whether to show Lemma or Display?

    Tonya, I know you've opened a case to inquire into this, so maybe there isn't an answer yet. I just want to make sure my request for an answer doesn't get lost in the other details NB.Mick brought up. Thanks!

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    NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Sep 6 2012 11:27 PM

    Rosie Perera:
    NB.Mick kind of hijacked my thread.

    Rosie, I'm sorry, I didn't intend to hijack your thread - my apologies.

    Rosie Perera:

    Tonya J Ross:
    The Display column should actually be populated with original language words and not English forms (since doing so it is largely duplicating the information from the Gloss column.)  There is an active case for that issue as well.
    .... how about my original bug diagnosis? Should it not be the Display column that shows up on the original language side of the flash cards? Or at least shouldn't the user have the option to choose whether to show Lemma or Display?

    In my last posts I tried to explain Tonya why the display column is so relevant for imported Word Lists (Sorry that I used Greek instead of Hebrew examples, I wouldn't understand them!) and thus why your request to either see display on the flash cards or be able to choose between lemma and display is a necessary change to make this work.

    Running Logos 8 latest beta version on Win 10

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    Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 7 2012 4:26 PM

    Rosie Perera:

    Tonya J Ross:
    The Display column should actually be populated with original language words and not English forms (since doing so it is largely duplicating the information from the Gloss column.)  There is an active case for that issue as well.

    NB.Mick kind of hijacked my thread. So how about my original bug diagnosis? Should it not be the Display column that shows up on the original language side of the flash cards? Or at least shouldn't the user have the option to choose whether to show Lemma or Display?

    Tonya, I know you've opened a case to inquire into this, so maybe there isn't an answer yet. I just want to make sure my request for an answer doesn't get lost in the other details NB.Mick brought up. Thanks!

    The Cards view should be using the Display column by default (and falling back to the Lemma column if the Default column is blank.)  The case for that issue is still active.

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    Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Sep 7 2012 9:34 PM

    Tonya J Ross:
    The Cards view should be using the Display column by default (and falling back to the Lemma column if the Default column is blank.)  The case for that issue is still active.

    Thanks for letting me know.

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    Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 19 2012 3:56 PM

    Tonya J Ross:

    Rosie Perera:

    Tonya J Ross:
    The Display column should actually be populated with original language words and not English forms (since doing so it is largely duplicating the information from the Gloss column.)  There is an active case for that issue as well.

    NB.Mick kind of hijacked my thread. So how about my original bug diagnosis? Should it not be the Display column that shows up on the original language side of the flash cards? Or at least shouldn't the user have the option to choose whether to show Lemma or Display?

    Tonya, I know you've opened a case to inquire into this, so maybe there isn't an answer yet. I just want to make sure my request for an answer doesn't get lost in the other details NB.Mick brought up. Thanks!

    The Cards view should be using the Display column by default (and falling back to the Lemma column if the Default column is blank.)  The case for that issue is still active.

    This issue should be fixed in 4.6a Beta 1.

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    Tonya J Ross | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Sep 19 2012 4:39 PM

    Tonya J Ross:

    NB.Mick:
    and fill the Display column with English words that occur in the English bible - in case of a Greek-only source like NA27 it will duplicate the Gloss column to Display, that's unnecessary,  but okay for me - maybe a reminiscence to L3 which displayed only the display column in table view

    This is a bug; I will verify that it has been reported.

    This issue should be fixed in 4.6a Beta 1.  The Display column should be populated with the original language (and not English).  For cases where original language information is not available (such as when adding a lemma from the context menu in an English Bible, like the ESV) the Display column will be left blank.  In such cases the Cards view will use the Lemma column instead.  

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