The forums have discussed the pros and cons of Logos in a subscription mode. Now it's here. What do you think?
Thanks for spotlighting this. My first thought is too snarky - I will have to consider this more.
Also, Logos Now has its own forum, and there's already a very active discussion taking place over there.
Personally, I don't like it! The idea of a subscription, as was brought up in the past by some users, was to allow people to use Logos, test drive it and then that might lead them to purchase a base package; but this? Why do I have to subscribe when I already own Platinum? Shouldn't all the goodies be included in Gold and above, as it already is, since you get full functionality when you get Gold and above and partial functionality Silver and down.
So what? There's some new features I can only have access to through a subscription, but not by spending a lot of money on a higher base package? I'm sorry, but no thanks. As far as I can tell from the discussions is all about data sets and improved functionality, nothing is said about you having access to other resources (i.e. Books, Lexicons, New Commentaries, etc.) that are not included in any base package. New features it's what it boils down to and I'm not interested if they'll be included in Logos 7 and future versions. I'd rather keep my Netflix subscription and not sign up for this.
Anyway, not being negative or anything, just stating my opinion. I just don't see what the excitement is all about.
If Logos had said, "You will have access to our entire catalog with the subscription," maybe I would give it a try to use as needed high ranked commentaries as NICOT/NICNT, WBC, NIVAC, etc, but for new features? Who would use such features anyway? I'm sure most of the Logosians here have never used Logos to it's full potential (and that includes power users too). The program is rich in content and features that most don't get used, and now subscribe to other features that you will not really use but maybe a few times here and there...eh, I think I'll pass. I'll settle for upgrading my base packages when new versions come along - it adds more books and also new features and data sets. Again, I don't see what the excitement is all about with this new "subscription" for Logos Now. I already have Logos "now," and since the day I bought my first base package and will continue to have it when I upgrade to my next level base package.
I just hope Logos doesn't get rid of all the base packages and start with this "subscription" thing. It will be extremely disappointing if they did so.
Enough said...
DAL
DAL, think positive. Sure you invested large sums. But that's now behind us.
Want to use prop outlines in Isa after using them in Mat. Cough up some dough. And don't forget to keep coughing ... else you're back to Mat.
Been coughing a while but you're only getting value on some earlier tools? Keep coughing ... they all disappear if you stop coughing.
(When you rent, you keep paying.)
DAL, think positive. Sure you invested large sums. But that's now behind us. Want to use prop outlines in Isa after using them in Mat. Cough up some dough. And don't forget to keep coughing ... else you're back to Mat. Been coughing a while but you're only getting value on some earlier tools? Keep coughing ... they all disappear if you stop coughing. (When you rent, you keep paying.)
That's The problem Denise when your cough becomes chronic it kills you.
As long as I think only in terms of what I want, it's simple - I want it all, I want it now, and I want it at my price. I've spent a few decades trying to teach foster teens that the world rarely works this way. But what have I purchased from Faithlife? The resources I want the most (and whatever came in the bundles with them), major new features every couple of years and maintenance/improvements between the major features purchases. I can continue with this model.
However, when I look at my grandson's generation, he wants something that he can afford on an ongoing basis until he finally get to the point of financial solvency that he can afford occasional big expenses (admittedly housing expenses are particularly high here making if much harder for young couples to get by). he's using to his entertainment being a variable, ephemeral collection - wanting the most recent reference book not the one he used in Prof X's class. And yes, there are a core of things he wishes to own. I applaud Logos for trying to serve this market while not upsetting my preferred pattern ... and making an option that allows me the best of both worlds.
Added advantages: I expect software quality to rise and Faithlife to be able to do better planning with a less uneven income stream.
That's The problem Denise when your cough becomes chronic it kills you. DAL
As my father would say - when he was a kid it was folk wisdom and eating cherries and ice cream was fatal. He and a cousin (ten year olds) had gotten into the cherries against Grandmother's instructions, only to find she had a surprise - ice cream. They decided to eat the ice cream rather than 'fess up to having gotten into the cherries. Sure enough it killed his cousin Dutch ... in about 78 years. It took a decade longer to kill Dad. But they both died ... clearly it was the cherries and ice cream that did them in.
P.S. Dad was an elder and his father and great uncle preachers for the Church of Christ (Standard Publication variety)
"Snarky" is an interesting word. Now back to the topic.
When Adobe Photoshop went to the subscription model, it became clear that I was satisfied with what I already had and didn't need more, the latest and didn't have to have it now.
The same thing is happening with Logos. What will subscription look like in the future? I don't know, but for now, it feels a lot easier to say "no" to.
The real test of the new strategy will be how you react when L7 is released. If the percentage who chose either rental or Logos 7 remains similar to the percentage who normally upgrade, Logos will have planned correctly. in the meantime, we each make the choice that seems best for ourselves then wait and see.
I'm a little concerned (not too strongly) about features and/or datasets that are only available to Logos Now subscribers. I guess I will need to make some kind of a value judgment on those to try and decide if having them is worth it to me with an on-going payment versus being able to buy them outright (which apparently I would not be able to do?). There is question that follows in regard to those things being incorporated into the next version of Logos while newer features.datasets come to the subscription. In other words, could I get them down the road at some point by purchasing them outright.
Hmmm ... I need to think on this more. [:S]
I'll also have to think about this more. The question is whether I would rather spend my money buying books I'll probably never read (traditional approach), or get early access to datasets and features I'll probably never use PLUS get discounts on additional books I'll probably never read (subscription).
According to Phil's post they will be updating in 6 week cycles. Why not wait the first 3/4 cycles and then take advantage of the free first month, and if there is not anything worth your while, cancel your subscription before you are charged. Canceling can be done via the web.
Given the list of priorities they have posted I think it is going to be very good. I like the web app idea as well, not very useful at the moment, but I see great potential and it could be very useful to people with slower computers who need quick answers, or people like me who would like to look stuff up while at work.
Logos offers both books and tools. Tools fall in the R&D category. If logos is going to still offer great tools as well as books money for the R&D is essential. These tools have to be developed by people tools don't just do not create themselves. It also takes time to develop these tools. Just looking at what they have provided thus far I have no problem with paying a small fee for R&D if its going to give me tools now. Maybe I can understand a little better because I come from a software background.
Good post Robert! [:)]
The way I am understanding this, it seems like Logos Now basically offers Logos users a chance to test drive features and datasets from forthcoming editions of Logos (Logos 7 and beyond) without having to wait for the next release.
I can see the value of doing that, if there is some new feature that looks particularly useful. There is mention of discounts for subscribers, too, which could be enticing.
My question would be, when Logos 7 is released and the base packages include a lot of these new features, will Logos Now subscribers maintain access to those features and datasets, or will those be transferred to being part of Logos 7 base packages only? Because if it is the former, then someone could subscribe now and get access to all future features and datasets without ever having to upgrade or crossgrade ever again. But if it is the latter, then subscribers would start to have features taken away from them.
Perhaps that is where the "discounts" come in. Maybe loyal Logos Now subscribers will receive better than normal discounts on the upgrades and crossgrades come time for Logos 7.
Maybe loyal Logos Now subscribers will receive better than normal discounts on the upgrades and crossgrades come time for Logos 7.
This is what I am hoping.
Maybe loyal Logos Now subscribers will receive better than normal discounts on the upgrades and crossgrades come time for Logos 7. This is what I am hoping.
I may be confused about your reasoning. As far as I am aware, you (and me) are paying for R&D already.
- The crossgrades in their various forms (core, feature, extended), i.e. tools, are not free. When someone upgrades to Logos/Verbum 6 they pay for and receive those tools. if you don't "upgrade" and want to have those tools there is a fee. The free core engine doesn't have the tools.
- Books are not free (except a few) and you pay for those and that includes the cost of producing them.
To each of these is included a portion the "keeping the business profitable" component (whatever amount that is).
Development of future tools is all baked into this. Every commercial, for-profit software development company or portion of a commercial, for-profit business that does software development has this as part of the business plan/model. There is way more detail than that however, suffice it to say that Faithlife is a commercial, for-profit business.
The definition of R&D is not equal to "give me tools now". R&D is to provide a company the ability to explore the feasibility and viability of something you may be able to have tomorrow.
Pardon my rant ...
Some tools you pay for in crossgrades, but many are completely free. One such feature is the personal book builder tool, and now personal book sync. I think "send to kindle" is also free. "Logos Now" is a multi-facited subscription service. ONE of those benefits is new features now. Another is access to new visual copy templates. Yet another is excusive offers and discounts. A good way to look at it is like Amazon Prime. When I first subscribed (for free as a student), it was really just free two-day shipping, without needing a $25 order. I now spend $100 a year on the service. I would never do so simply for the shipping. I now watch shows, buy Black Friday gifts, get free kindle prime only deals. It is worth it to me. I think Faithlife envisions a similar service for its users.
I don't have any interest in it, and don't currently plan on subscribing. Logos has every right to try this model, though. It will be interesting to see how it works out. One thing that's not clear to me is whether this is a rental program (i.e., everything I've gained through it goes away once I drop it) or a subscription like a magazine (i.e., once I drop I don't get anything new, but do get to keep everything I've already received). It would make more sense to me if it's the latter, though I still don't know if I'd bite unless there were some assurance that they would be rolling out something each month in exchange for the subscription price.
1. It is a rental - you lose it when you drop it ... except for what you have purchased or is in the free engine.
2. The rollout period is 6 weeks not monthly although datasets and perks may be at any time.
One thing that's not clear to me is whether this is a rental program (i.e., everything I've gained through it goes away once I drop it) or a subscription like a magazine (i.e., once I drop I don't get anything new, but do get to keep everything I've already received).
It is the former not the latter. Rental not subscription.
I'd encourage those with questions like this to check out the now long thread in the Logos Now forum. It has a lot of information from Phil Gons and other Faithlife folks.
There is also a Logos Now info page on the Logos web site.
My understanding of the terms "rental" and "subscription" must be very different than y'all's. I subscribe to Netflix. It is a subscription based service. Once I stop "subscribing," I lose access to the service.
I honestly don't know anywhere where the term "rental" is used the way y'all are using it... Although it is probably just semantics. You can RENT a textbook, you SUBSCRIBE to a service (I.e. kindle unlimited or audible).
Thanks for the links, Mark. Very helpful in thinking through the various aspects of the subject.
It's a blessing when many are asking questions, many of which I would have never thought of by myself. And the responses from Faithlife.
Very helpful. [:)]
I think it is semantics, Alabama. Mostly based on the difference between digital content and non-digital content. That's the magazine subscription example provided above. For example, I have some older copies of National Geographic on my bookshelf even though I do not have a subscription any longer. I rented a movie from iTunes using my Apple TV and watched it a few weekends ago, but I don't have access to it longer.
You are correct when talking about digital content, rent versus subscribe, although there is probably some nuance to the whole thing.
I'm a bit mixed on this program. The library should be the Logos Now. If I have to buy more print books because they aren't in Logos, my budget for subscription features isn't high.
Not sure why I would want to pay twice for new features either.
The library should be the Logos Now. If I have to buy more print books because they aren't in Logos, my budget for subscription features isn't high.
I understand your second statement (I think) but not the first one.
Hopefully Faithlife will credit some of the rental fee toward eventual purchase of the features that make it into Logos 7. The rest (or all of the fee) is for having access to the features for perhaps 2 - 2-1/2 years before they are available otherwise.
I may be confused about your reasoning. As far as I am aware, you (and me) are paying for R&D already. - The crossgrades in their various forms (core, feature, extended), i.e. tools, are not free. When someone upgrades to Logos/Verbum 6 they pay for and receive those tools. if you don't "upgrade" and want to have those tools there is a fee. The free core engine doesn't have the tools. - Books are not free (except a few) and you pay for those and that includes the cost of producing them. To each of these is included a portion the "keeping the business profitable" component (whatever amount that is). Development of future tools is all baked into this. Every commercial, for-profit software development company or portion of a commercial, for-profit business that does software development has this as part of the business plan/model. There is way more detail than that however, suffice it to say that Faithlife is a commercial, for-profit business. The definition of R&D is not equal to "give me tools now". R&D is to provide a company the ability to explore the feasibility and viability of something you may be able to have tomorrow. Pardon my rant ...
Logos is offering what we want or at least trying to. People want tools, which cost money. People want more resources which cost money as well. we cannot have our cake and eat it too. Either one will have more or less then the other. Logos has to make a profit. For those who want tools and other unique features they get the Logos Now. Logos now is ensuring that Logos is able to to develop great tools in R&D. I think the future of base packages will be focused mainly on resources. Before the Logos Now, Logos has primarily been a resources based. Although there were tools there were not as much tools in comparison to resources. No business can be innovative and grow if they are lacking in R&D which tools fall into. This is one way which logos is seeking to balance things out and give everyone what they really want.
1. It is a rental - you lose it when you drop it ... except for what you have purchased or is in the free engine. 2. The rollout period is 6 weeks not monthly although datasets and perks may be at any time.
Thank you, M.J.
It's #1 that limits its appeal for me. I'm probably not using half the current functionality of Logos 6, but might find new or expanded datasets useful. If the "Logos Now" program allowed me to purchase them over time, rather than in one big pop with a major update, that might be appealing. More to the point, I could justify it to my spouse. But I'm going to be talking to someone who knows what I've already spent - and continue to spend on books - and who is going to ask "so, you're going to spend another $100 or so, and at the end of the year you're going to have what exactly?" I can explain buying books (within reason), but this other is just not a conversation that I want to have.
That's a helpful way to look at it. I was the same with Amazon Prime. [:)] Started with the free trial but never would have kept it going until they started adding more and more perks to the program. If that's what Faithlife is going for here, then I am very interested to see where things go.
I started through that other thread that Mark linked to, which helped clarify a lot, too. I think I was initially distracted by the "rental' verbiage. It makes more sense to me to think of it as a membership program.
No business can be innovative and grow if they are lacking in R&D which tools fall into. This is one way which logos is seeking to balance things out and give everyone what they really want.
Correct. We are saying the same thing. R&D (and salaries, health care, utilities, building, servers, "free" stuff, etc.) at Faithlife has been going on since the beginning. We've been paying for it as some portion of all the products we have purchased and will continue to purchase (using whatever the internal calculation at Faithlife is).
Logos/Verbum Now is not an R&D effort unto itself. It's a product/service paid for by users (us). It's all good. [:)]
Still seems to me that buying a product outright, up-front, even if it isn't honed to its fullest potential, would provide Logos with a bigger chunk of money and a known amount to further R&D than the fickle trickle of subscription. I think users would be more satisfied as well.
You may be right. I believe in his long post about Logos Now Bob Pritchett said he thought a steady stream of sales pitches for new products would annoy more than anything. Besides, he is trying to create a revenue stream to allow greater development of tools and datasets.
We might think of Logos Now as a way to pre-pub new datasets and tools without knowing in advance what they will be. You pay in faith believing Faithlife will deliver some tools or datasets you'll benefit from. You don't have to pay all that much, and with enough folks doing so, the sheer number of new features they'd be able to produce with that revenue would likely produce at least few each of us will be glad to have.
I signed up for the free trial and I really like the web version. Looks like not all the features are available yet but based on the options I saw as "coming soon" looks like it will be similar to what the desktop application is. I hope it gets to the point where we can have more than two windows open. This would be great for those who own a Chromebook.
I actually wish the desktop version's interface looked more like the web version. It looks cleaner and more modern looking.
I have been letting this percolate for the last 48 hours, and then some. I'm almost there but want some more time to let it "bake" completely in my thinking.
One question (probably asked already), does Verbum Now have all the same features and benefits as Logos Now?
Yes, Verbum 6.2 RC3 has the same Now features and benefits as Logos 6.2 RC 3.
Keep Smiling [:)]
At this point in time, yes.
