Will Surface 3 run Logos 6.0 well you think?
Anyone planning on buying the Surface 3 to make use of Logos?
I have an I5 with my original Surface Pro (very old model) and wonder if it would be a step backward for me.
So expensive to upgrade. I continue to wonder if I might be better served getting an Ipad Air 2 for mobile work, etc but I know thats a whole other "horse of a different color".
....so how do you look forward to using Logos 6.0 in the future in terms of hardware?
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I'd be interested in this. I'm concerned about two things - the Atom processor, and the fact it's an eMMC drive not an SSD. The drive is half the speed of a proper SSD.
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I have a surface Pro 3. Logos 6 works quite well. The pen action is excellent.
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Thanks Orpheus....I cannot afford the Surface Pro 3. I have the original Surface Pro (which most people know I dislike as its heavy and overheats a lot) and so I wonder if I should cross over to the new surface 3 or look about for a used version of what you have (and pray the costs come down).
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You may be interested in the discussion earlier this month here.
It has some helpful comments as well as the link the external article with the charts to which Mark refers.
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JoshInRI said:
Thanks Orpheus....I cannot afford the Surface Pro 3. I have the original Surface Pro (which most people know I dislike as its heavy and overheats a lot) and so I wonder if I should cross over to the new surface 3 or look about for a used version of what you have (and pray the costs come down).
Just a free opinion, the prices are beginning to come down on the Surface Pro 3 because the Surface Pro 4 is coming out in about 3 months. These prices will come down more. Also, many people with perfectly good Surface Pro 3 machines will want to sell them to buy the newest model.
I don't think it would be wise to settle for less than an i5 processor, 8 GB of ram, and a 256 GB hard drive. I would rather buy a used Surface Pro 3, or give few more months for the prices to drop on the Surface Pro 3.
In fact, I have been using my Surface Pro 2 for almost 2 years, still love the way it runs Logos 6. I am not sure I will upgrade for another year. Obviously, I had rather have a Surface Pro 2 with the i5, 8 GB ram, 256 HD, than a new Surface 3 without those requirements.
God bless you friend, and may He guide you and provide for you to have the tools that will bless your study of His Word.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Mr. Childs weighs in and as always is a blessing. Thank you Kind Sir. I am quite blessed to have the many tools I do have.
I need to acknowledge that more often. Glory to God.
(addendum: I am NOT going to buy the Surface 3....I may save my pennies and pray for a deal on someone's discarded gently used Surface Pro 3 instead and look for an Ipad Air 2 for my electronic stable....I already own Galaxy Tablet S which does just well but is packed with features I may never use...also I notice my wifi keeps going up and down on it lately.)
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I'll have it in a couple weeks ans will let you know. It has comparable hardware with a couple other machines I've tried it on and it barely runs on them. HP Stream 11 & 13 and Toshiba Encore 2 Write.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
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Can't wait to hear your experience with the Surface 3
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It's not a great experience. Loads in about a minute. But extreme lag. I click an item and it takes anywhere from a sec to three to react.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Thanks for the update.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
It's not a great experience. Loads in about a minute. But extreme lag. I click an item and it takes anywhere from a sec to three to react.
That's a shame. I suspect that's due to it not having an SSD. That's the reason I decided not to buy.
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Mark Barnes said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
It's not a great experience. Loads in about a minute. But extreme lag. I click an item and it takes anywhere from a sec to three to react.
That's a shame. I suspect that's due to it not having an SSD. That's the reason I decided not to buy.
Does the Surface Pro have a an SSD?
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Steve said:Mark Barnes said:Kevin A. Purcell said:
It's not a great experience. Loads in about a minute. But extreme lag. I click an item and it takes anywhere from a sec to three to react.
That's a shame. I suspect that's due to it not having an SSD. That's the reason I decided not to buy.
Does the Surface Pro have a an SSD?
Yes. All tablets do for space and battery life. Most tablets are thinner than a regular hard drive!
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The Surface Pro does have an SSD. But alabama is mistaken, as cheaper tablets like the Surface do not have SSDs. They don't have traditional hard drives either, but something called eMMC. It's similar technology to memory cards, and is much slower than SSDs but a little quicker than traditional hard drives. There's more info here: http://www.howtogeek.com/196541/emmc-vs.-ssd-not-all-solid-state-storage-is-equal/
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I wonder - if the Surface 3 were just used for reading would the experience be useful. In other words, the proposed use for the device would be to open a book, read and highlight .. that's it. (Yes, I know all the functionality is there but in this scenario it would not be utilized.)
What do you think of that idea?
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Thanks for clarifying Mark. [:)]
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alabama24 said:
.... (or an iPad Pro!)?
Tantalizing for sure, what ever it turns out to be.
... I guess my thought was solely on the economics, 128GB for $599 or $699. The only other thing I have used a tablet for (in the past) is note-taking in class and I use OneNote for that - so basically a wash there. Don't get me wrong, the iPad is a wonderful device. I gave mine to my wife and just never replaced it.
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alabama24 said:
As you know there's a big difference between Logos 6 and Logos for iOS.
The hope is that a machine like this could potentially replace a laptop and a tablet. All the other Bible software I own runs like a champ on the Surface 3 and quite frankly, the fact that Logos doesn't means I'm likely going to be using it less unless Logos gets the Logos Now web app going soon.
Is the Mono platform the albatross around Faithflife's neck? Why does their software run so much slower than others even with similar functionality?
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
As you know there's a big difference between Logos 6 and Logos for iOS.
Yes... but I was responding to this:
Steve said:the proposed use for the device would be to open a book, read and highlight .. that's it.
Steve said:What do you think of that idea?
Like I said: Why not just get an iPad.
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The only thing that popped into my mind, as I mention, was the price difference for the same amount of storage. $599 vs. $699. Yes, there is the option to scale back the memory on the iPad to make the price equal.
I'm just trying to tease out the variations for the scenario. All comments are helpful.
... now, the potential of an iPad Pro ... hmmm. I wonder where that could end up?
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
Is the Mono platform the albatross around Faithflife's neck?
I think Mono only comes into play with the Mac version as a port from .Net on Windows.
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Well, In that case ..... Both the surface 3 and the various iPads are overpriced for what they can accomplish. (Focusing mainly on a machine to run Logos) The earlier versions of 8 inch Windows tablets with Atom processors are a much better value. If you get the 64G version, it It will run the full desktop version of Logos at a respectable clip for under half the money you are considering. Most come with a stripped down version of Office which includes OneNote and stylus function for scribbled notes.Steve said:All comments are helpful.
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Paul C said:
Well, In that case ..... (Focusing mainly on a machine to run Logos) The earlier versions of 8 inch Windows tablets with Atom processors are a much better value. If you get the 64G version, it will run the full desktop version of Logos at a respectable clip for under half the money you are considering. Most come with a stripped down version of Office which includes OneNote and stylus function for scribbled notes.
Thanks for that, Paul. [:)]
I have to admit I'm a little lost on the whole thing. If I think about all the comments, they seems very different. I've also heard here in the forums that the experience on the Surface 3, which has a much improved quad-core Atom processor with speeds greater that the earlier generation, are "painful" and "unpleasant".
It doesn't seem that those views are reconcilable. Respectable clip and painful ... ???
[:S]
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Steve said:
It doesn't seem that those views are reconcilable. Respectable clip and painful ... ???
Some thoughts:
- Some people are used to faster or slower computers
- Users may have small, medium or large libraries.
- Users may have more "resource intensive" usage than others.
"How will Logos run on this computer" is highly subjective and relative to a particular users library and usage.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:
Why does their software run so much slower than others even with similar functionality?
Logos doesn't have similar functionality to other Bible apps. It's far more advanced than them, and supporting all that advanced tech (multiple datatypes, complex customisable visual filters, and lots more besides) uses lots more resources than other apps.
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Again, I agree. I would not dream of having the Atom based 8 inch tablet as my only machine. ... any more than I would transport and set up my PC and 30 inch monitor for a one hour Bible study. Each machine fills a niche. For $200 I don't expect the little Dell to match the $2000 PC's performance. I don't plan to be doing extensive searching and researching during a group Bible study. I just want the resources available...just in case. If it takes a half second longer....So Be It.alabama24 said:Steve said:It doesn't seem that those views are reconcilable. Respectable clip and painful ... ???
Some thoughts:
- Some people are used to faster or slower computers
- Users may have small, medium or large libraries.
- Users may have more "resource intensive" usage than others.
"How will Logos run on this computer" is highly subjective and relative to a particular users library and usage.
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Paul C said:
... For $200 I don't expect the little Dell to match the $2000 PC's performance. ....
What is the middle ground in your thinking? ("respectable clip vs. painful") As I mentioned before, I'm trying to tease out what that is and where reading and highlighting fit in..
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Steve said:Paul C said:
... For $200 I don't expect the little Dell to match the $2000 PC's performance. ....
What is the middle ground in your thinking? ("respectable clip vs. painful") As I mentioned before, I'm trying to tease out what that is and where reading and highlighting fit in..
I think the full size iPad is ideal for my kind of "study reading" where I make extensive use of highlighting. FWIW - I don't suggest downloading large amounts of one's library, so the base model could be sufficient. (I like doing other things on my iPad as well, so more memory would be desirable. Movies for travel, games, photos etc. can take up quite a bit of room.) Also, I prefer my kindle paperwhite for simply reading. If I don't think I will make many highlights, I will use "send to kindle." Afterwards I will recreate the highlights on my iPad. I <only> do that for highlighting "lite" resources.
I am not "anti" Microsoft or surface. I think I would love one... But it would be down my list of priorities. I would prefer a lightweight powerful laptop and iPad any day.
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Again, a somewhat loaded question.Steve said:What is the middle ground in your thinking?
I have a very nice, high powered PC for home study. There is a Lenovo convertible with high end specs. (X220T) It can be used as a laptop or a very bulky 13 inch tablet. (4.5 pounds) even in tablet mode it is somewhat imposing in a group or sermon setting. People don't give the 8 inch tablet a second look. ... Even when scribbling notes. If I'm just going to read through a resource I actually prefer the Venue 8 over larger monitors. Another plus is you can sit in a recliner...or on a creek bank and read anything in your library...off-line. Highlighting with a touch screen can be tricky ...even more so in Logos. They have not invested all that much time in perfecting touch/stylus capability. There are work-arounds. ...a bluetooth mouse, or an app called touchmousepointer, which lets you use the whole screen as a touchpad. When I first started using the Dell for Bible study, I would take the Lenovo along and leave it in the car for backup. I no longer do that. I can get all the functionality I need From the Atom processor. So If middle ground is based on comparisons of a machine that can not run the full desktop software at all and one that runs it with blazing speed. I still maintain the little Atoms are way right of center. It is ever so slightly slower at everything it does than the other 2 machines. (internet surfing. word processing, etc) The portability more than makes up for the hit in speed.
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Paul C said:
Highlighting with a touch screen can be tricky ...even more so in Logos.
I don't think this is true on iOS... and I assume the same for Android. This is why I keep saying: "Why not get an iPad." My friend Michael LOVES his surface device, and loves running the full version of Logos. But if a user simply wants to read and highlight, get an iPad (or Android if you prefer).
Paul C said:They have not invested all that much time in perfecting touch/stylus capability.
My personal opinion... which I know there will be a strong contingent who disagree: The UI will need a MAJOR overhaul before it will be appropriate for touch screens. What works for a physical keyboard and mouse doesn't necessarily work well with a finger.
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All laptop touchpads/trackpads are controlled by a finger...or multiple fingers. If a free app (30 second download) can solve the issues Logos faces on touch screens, How hard could it be to incorporate that technology into the UI? They made scrolling and highlighting work on touchpads without a MAJOR overhaul. All that is missing is the incentive. They just don't see that the time will generate revenue.alabama24 said:The UI will need a MAJOR overhaul before it will be appropriate for touch screens. What works for a physical keyboard and mouse doesn't necessarily work well with a finger.
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Paul C said:
All laptop touchpads/trackpads are controlled by a finger...or multiple fingers
...and buttons (or special clicks)... and keystrokes... they are NOT the same thing.
It's ok that we disagree. Personally, I would not want to use L6 with a touch interface. It would need a massive simplification and overhaul DESIGNED for that mode.
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OK. I'll let you have the last word.
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(Unfortunately, I lost what I was typing, so I'll try to make this relatively brief.)
My new Surface 3 finished indexing this evening. That said, I am not entirely sure how long indexing took because Logos may have indexed roughly my entire library (i.e., 9,798 resources) twice—once after installing Logos 5 last night, and once after installing Logos 6 this morning. (This may not be the normal install path; I may have accidently used the wrong installer.) Anyway, if it indexed everything two times, then it took at least 9 hours or so. This may be optimistic, however, since it may have been longer with partial indexing. Sorry this is not more accurate! Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how indexing is with smaller resource batches.
While indexing, I spent some time reading my Greek and Hebrew Bibles, browsing the web, and streaming music through Amazon Music Library. I didn't do this the whole time, but while I did everything ran quite smoothly. That said, if you're looking for rapid, high-end SSD indexing of your entire library (as a high priority), then you should probably look at a Surface Pro or another device that would better suit your priorities.
After restarting my computer, Logos 6 took 24 seconds for the main window/user-interface to appear followed by an additional 21 seconds—for a grand total of 45 seconds—for an additional library window and two panels to appear (including the LHB and a blank search panel). (I had left my library window and two resources open from my last Logos 6 session).
At least thus far, I'm much more satisfied with the Surface 3's performance in Logos 6 than some of the other forum members. Once everything is indexed and loaded, certain menus might have an initial delay usually of no more than a second or so (e.g., the Tools menu or displaying all documents in the Documents menu, which seems to become faster after its initial load). Right-clicking words in the Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) populates menus almost instantly, with only a very slight delay. An initial Bible Word Study on a very common Hebrew verb such as עשׂה ("make," "do") took about 10 sec. to populate LEMMA, Translation, Root, Senses, Phrases, and Textual Searches data. (According to Logos, this verb occurs 2,642 times in the Hebrew Bible and 751 in the Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls). Double-clicking words in the LHB opens preferred dictionaries and jumps to new lexical entries quickly. Overall, most things are pretty snappy/responsive, especially in relation to the text, although, full disclosure, I'm used to an almost 5 1/2 Dell Inspiron 1545!! I also haven't tried stressing the program or used it extensively yet. Your mileage may vary. Moreover, Logos isn't the fastest program on the planet, although it has improved a lot since Logos 4 and relative to the release of Logos 6, which seemed like a step backward from Logos 5.
Here are the results of a Milestone search that I performed just after starting the program:
Anyway, I would have provided a couple more examples, but I am short on time, and I have also had a few crashes performing more than one search in a row, so I'll have to get some log files and provide bug reports for the developers. I've also had a very occasional issue with my external display flashing black, so I'll have to look into that as well, which is probably an issue for Microsoft. Anyway, thus far, I've generally been pleased with how long it takes to search my entire library, which often isn't even the most efficient way to search.
Also, keep in mind that the Surface 3 is a tablet that can function as a general productivity device. If someone is only looking for speed—and not flexibility, portability, build quality, form factor, a great reading and writing and device, and so on—then there are better options that would fit that bill. Anyway, these are just very initial impressions so take them for whatever they're worth. I may have more to add later, but I'll probably be pretty busy for the next several days. Also, Windows 8 has some problems Windows 10 should fix (e.g., I believe, scaling two or more monitors of different resolutions).
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[Y] Pretty much my experience as well. Thanks for that Adam.
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Kevin A. Purcell said:alabama24 said:
As you know there's a big difference between Logos 6 and Logos for iOS.
The hope is that a machine like this could potentially replace a laptop and a tablet. All the other Bible software I own runs like a champ on the Surface 3 and quite frankly, the fact that Logos doesn't means I'm likely going to be using it less unless Logos gets the Logos Now web app going soon.
Is the Mono platform the albatross around Faithflife's neck? Why does their software run so much slower than others even with similar functionality?
The best affordable solution is to buy a Surface Pro 2 with 256 GB SSD, i5 processor, 8 GB RAM for under $500 used or around $650 refurbished on eBay. It runs full Logos 6 like a dream. I bought mine two years ago for about $1200 new, and still use it as my only computer. Have no plans to upgrade soon. I do not understand all the confusion. Logos will not run at its best on less than these specs.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
@Adam Olean. "I have also had a few crashes performing more than one search in a row".
What that all about? Can you tell us more?
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I can't seem to use the touch screen in Logos 6 to scroll up and down on the new Surface 3. Are you having the same issue?
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Welcome to the forums, Rene. [:)]
Unfortunately, Logos/Verbum 6 (the desktop app), is not touch enabled. That functionality is not there as it is with the mobile (Android and iOS) versions. You will need to use the same controls as with your desktop.
[:(]
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Try downloading a free app.... touchmousepointer. It allows you to use your whole screen as a touchpad. It solved the scrolling and highlighting issues for me.
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Logos is performing a little better now. All indexing finished and while it's not at all fast (never has been even on high end machines) it is usable.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
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Dave Hooton said:
Hi Steve and Dave,
I just reported the problem on the Logos 6 forum in the following thread: Logos 6 Search Crashes on Surface 3 When Changing the Scope/Domain of Searches Across Library.
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Thanks Adam. You may want to edit the title and place "BUG: " at the front.
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Linval London said:
Pretty much my experience as well. Thanks for that Adam.Linval,
Glad to hear it! I have to say that the more that I figure out how best to employ the touch screen, the pen, and various layouts in Logos 6, reading on the Surface 3 is truly a delight—especially when reading the Hebrew OT and Greek NT! The IPS screen is quite large (for a tablet), relatively lightweight, and crisp. The fans are dead silent. (There are no fans!) Morpho-syntactical, lexical, sense, and other data is just a tap away if I need it; otherwise, the text of Scripture is front and center. I'm no longer quite as bound to my desk. Unfortunately, the mobile apps still have unresolved problems with Hebrew, which makes them somewhat less useful for my purposes. I'm finding that even Logos 6 maps tend to load rather quickly on the Surface 3, especially when compared to my old setup, so it seems like a pretty decent solution depending on one's purposes and if you can get past indexing. That said, if one is willing to spend a little more, I'm sure one of the systems/networks at NASA, the NSA, or CERN would index Logos 6 pretty well. [H]
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Steve said:
Thanks Adam. You may want to edit the title and place "BUG: " at the front.
Thanks, Steve. I forgot!
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