New Feature in Logos Now But Not in Verbum Now?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724067#Comment_724067

Verbum will probably offer a similar benefit for subscribers, but likely with different books. We're discussing that with the team.

Damian McGrath

And with that, I have cancelled my subscription.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724166#Comment_724166

And with that, I have cancelled my subscription.

Mind if I ask why?

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724217#Comment_724217

The "month-long" access is nice to try something out. Let's say I really like a book included and want to buy it. Is it going to cost the full price or will there be a discount for Now customers?

David Taylor, Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724325#Comment_724325

The "month-long" access is nice to try something out. Let's say I really like a book included and want to buy it. Is it going to cost the full price or will there be a discount for Now customers?

I was wondering this too. It is nice to have LBG Gen 1-11 this month, but I would never buy it at regular price.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724334#Comment_724334

The "month-long" access is nice to try something out. Let's say I really like a book included and want to buy it. Is it going to cost the full price or will there be a discount for Now customers?

I was wondering this too. It is nice to have LBG Gen 1-11 this month, but I would never buy it at regular price.

No promises on how we'll handle this for each book each time, but we've definitely discussed offering it on sale for a limited time to Now subscribers who enjoyed free access to it for a month.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724217#Comment_724217

And with that, I have cancelled my subscription.

Mind if I ask why?

I would be interested also in your thoughts .. not to rebut or criticize, but to understand.

Brian Losabia

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724357#Comment_724357

Speaking for myself as a Verbum Now subscriber, I feel a little sad that Logos Now subscribers are getting access to the additional resources, while the Verbum Now folks are not -- even though the subscription prices are identical, and my assumption was that Verbum Now and Logos Now would pretty much be interchangeable, without one necessarily being "better" than the other.

Either granting same/same access to resources on the Logos/Verbum programs, or selecting different Logos/Verbum resources and then making simultaneous email announcements to the subscribers might have been a more customer-friendly way to handle this.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724433#Comment_724433

Speaking for myself as a Verbum Now subscriber, I feel a little sad that Logos Now subscribers are getting access to the additional resources, while the Verbum Now folks are not -- even though the subscription prices are identical, and my assumption was that Verbum Now and Logos Now would pretty much be interchangeable, without one necessarily being "better" than the other.

Either granting same/same access to resources on the Logos/Verbum programs, or selecting different Logos/Verbum resources and then making simultaneous email announcements to the subscribers might have been a more customer-friendly way to handle this.

Brian, our plan is for these to be very similar, but custom in a way that's fitting for the audience. We agree this should have been coordinated better between the teams, and we're sorry it wasn't. I'll check with the Verbum team to see where they're at in offer this benefit to Verbum Now subscribers.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724438#Comment_724438

Brian, our plan is for these to be very similar, but custom in a way that's fitting for the audience.

My .02, Faithlife is way overthinking this. Audience preference matters when there is a choice - the Verbum audience has preferred liturgical, biblical choices, catechisms, etc. But why does Logos get Faithlife Today video and Verbum audience gets nothing? If someone with Verbum or Logos wants to turn them off they can. This seems like arbitrary differentiation that only causes confusion to me. That's one example that's in blogs, web pages, etc., yet "You can't get it - sorry". Dumb!

Same opinion here as others on this thread, I happen to own Lexham Bible Guides so it's not an issue to me, and they are very good - but why they wouldn't be offered to Verbum users is beyond me - there really is not an alternative resource for the Verbum audience or any other. Didn't Logos/FL create the LBG franchise to offer a value add beyond just commentaries? Why wouldn't you want to extend that option to all your audience? What would you prefer Verbum audience to use instead? If you say it's not Catholic so it shouldn't be offered, Verbum base packages have tons of non-Catholic resources in them, if that is considered to be the delineation it is cloudy.

As a Verbum user I have become more and ore unhappy with the fact that it exists - only because of the arbitrary lines FL establishes that seem to serve no one well.

Brian Losabia

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724438#Comment_724438

Speaking for myself as a Verbum Now subscriber, I feel a little sad that Logos Now subscribers are getting access to the additional resources, while the Verbum Now folks are not -- even though the subscription prices are identical, and my assumption was that Verbum Now and Logos Now would pretty much be interchangeable, without one necessarily being "better" than the other.

Either granting same/same access to resources on the Logos/Verbum programs, or selecting different Logos/Verbum resources and then making simultaneous email announcements to the subscribers might have been a more customer-friendly way to handle this.

Brian, our plan is for these to be very similar, but custom in a way that's fitting for the audience. We agree this should have been coordinated better between the teams, and we're sorry it wasn't. I'll check with the Verbum team to see where they're at in offer this benefit to Verbum Now subscribers.

It's all good, my brother. I'm still very excited to see how Logos Now and Verbum Now develop and change over time.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724441#Comment_724441

As a Verbum user I have become more and ore unhappy with the fact that it exists - only because of the arbitrary lines FL establishes that seem to serve no one well.

Faithlife has bent over backwards trying to please Verbum users. Just my 2 cents.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724492#Comment_724492

As a Verbum user I have become more and ore unhappy with the fact that it exists - only because of the arbitrary lines FL establishes that seem to serve no one well.

Faithlife has bent over backwards trying to please Verbum users. Just my 2 cents.

This time ST I think you are overvaluing your opinion - which is normally worth well over 2 cents. This time I think "penny for your thoughts" is more appropriate. And I've not noticed much gymnastic agility on the part of Faithlife. The problem with Verbum is that the software functionality doesn't divide along the same lines as the theological marketing - which leave a group of mainstream Protestants with a choice of being unhappy Verbum users or unhappy Logos users. I've seen indications that Faithlife recognizes the problem and is attempting to mitigate it. But every now and then they pull a real doozy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724441#Comment_724441

Brian, our plan is for these to be very similar, but custom in a way that's fitting for the audience.

My .02, Faithlife is way overthinking this. Audience preference matters when there is a choice - the Verbum audience has preferred liturgical, biblical choices, catechisms, etc. But why does Logos get Faithlife Today video and Verbum audience gets nothing?

This is for free - not even $0.02 worth [:)] I think there are two major factors here:

I don't think that the Verbum audience developed as Faithlife expected - the users are a much more diverse than the marketing.
Verbum has a very small staff which is asked to keep up to a pace set but the much, much larger Logos staff,

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724498#Comment_724498

The problem with Verbum is that the software functionality doesn't divide along the same lines as the theological marketing - which leave a group of mainstream Protestants with a choice of being unhappy Verbum users or unhappy Logos users.

Agreed

Also let's not overlook the mood of Orthodox customers - who have no base package to complain about yet. When one arrives will it be more Logos or more Verbum in kind?

I've seen indications that Faithlife recognizes the problem and is attempting to mitigate it.

I trust you're correct, because the alternative is too disappointing.

Separate controlled vocabularies hard coded to the platforms (Verbum/Logos) is what I dread most.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724509#Comment_724509

Also let's not overlook the mood of Orthodox customers - who have no base package to complain about yet. When one arrives will it be more Logos or more Verbum in kind?

. . .

Separate controlled vocabularies hard coded to the platforms (Verbum/Logos) is what I dread most.

As for the Ortthodox, as every Orthodox church has a Catholic equivalent often sharing liturgical and catechetical books, regardless of what Faithlife tries to do, it comes out Verbum ... even if they market it as running on Logos. Yes, I know some recent Western converts prefer to think this is not true but the hierarchy of the three Churches - Catholic, Eastern (Byzantine) Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox - have signed ecumenical documents to this effect.

I may be a bit more pessimistic. I fear the LCV may never outgrow its American evangelical origins but may only add veneers nodding towards the broad world of historical and worldwide Judeo-Christianity. I say this because of the length of time it took to get the deuterocanonicals added to the LCV ... and the continued absence of the traditional names of "unnamed" Biblical characters. Note the date on the following is Sept 11, 2009.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724217#Comment_724217

And with that, I have cancelled my subscription.

Mind if I ask why?

I personally haven't cancelled my subscription to Verbum Now over this because I don't yet have one, but I'm guaranteed not to get one any time soon because so far Verbum customers are de facto being treated as second class. Given that this has happened before--the ridiculous delays before the creation of the Catholic Products forum when there should have been no delay at all, for example--I strongly suspect that Damian expects and rejects a projected continued pattern of (assumed unintentional) maltreatment of Verbum users. It's not the responsibility of Verbum staff to make sure they keep up with what the Logos staff are offering; it's the fundamental responsibility of Faithlife the company not to stratify its customers, in fact or in appearance and whether by intention or accidentally, along Logos/Verbum lines.

If you charge more, provide more; if you charge less, provide less; if you charge the same, provide the same or equivalent. If providing the same or equivalent gives Verbum Now users access to certain products that they may appreciate less than Logos Now users--or the other way around--that's fine. If Verbum Now users and Logos Now users get access to different sets of comparable products aimed to be of interest to each group, that's fine too, and probably better for Faithlife's sales volume in the long run. But either way is fair to Faithlife's customers, which is ultimately what both Logos and Verbum users are, which clearly unbalanced Logos/Verbum Now offerings accidentally deny.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724498#Comment_724498

This time ST I think you are overvaluing your opinion

Maybe Bob ought to fire the whole Verbum team, if they are doing such a lousy job.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724510#Comment_724510

I fear the LCV may never outgrow its American evangelical origins

Optimism - There is so much potential and as you stated in an earlier post there are hopeful signs that this potential is being recognized within Faithlife.

This applies to the formal topic of this thread too. I expect that Verbum Now and Logos Now will be different. I just hope that the differences aren't divisive.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724552#Comment_724552

This time ST I think you are overvaluing your opinion

Maybe Bob ought to fire the whole Verbum team, if they are doing such a lousy job.

And, just for the record, I am not saying the Verbum team is doing a bad job. You implied that.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724557#Comment_724557

[quote]

I don't think that the Verbum audience developed as Faithlife expected - the users are a much more diverse than the marketing.

And hence my comment - why offer separate resources to Verbum and Logos users. When LOGOS 6 came out, I upgraded via a CrossGrade option. But a week or so later, while looking at the Verbum base packages, I added a small one to my order.

Now, I don't want to subscribe to both Verbum Now and LOGOS Now, but would like to be able to consider what is being offered in terms of resources. I am currently not subscribed to either service, but I am continuing to consider it as I see it developing. I would hate to have to make a choice - there would be none. But I would like to have access to all resources as I do now with LOGOS and a few Verbum offering.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724501#Comment_724501

I don't think that the Verbum audience developed as Faithlife expected - the users are a much more diverse than the marketing.

I suspect that you may be correct in the short term. I have thought, maybe hoped even, that Verbum is a long-term endeavor to reach a specific audience. I am not Roman Catholic but accept the church headed from Rome as part of the catholic Church. Having said that I expect that the Verbum brand connotes Roman Catholic. When I see resources that aren't obviously, or obviously aren't, explicitly Roman Catholic included in Verbum branded packages this doesn't change my expectation. This is how I understand Verbum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724552#Comment_724552

This time ST I think you are overvaluing your opinion

Maybe Bob ought to fire the whole Verbum team, if they are doing such a lousy job.

???? What I said was that a small team cannot be expected to keep up with a very large team - a possible explanation for why the Verbum free equivalent was not yet ready. I have a great deal of respect for the Verbum team members I have had occasion to interact with.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724583#Comment_724583

I don't think that the Verbum audience developed as Faithlife expected - the users are a much more diverse than the marketing.

I suspect that you may be correct in the short term. I have thought, maybe hoped even, that Verbum is a long-term endeavor to reach a specific audience. I am not Roman Catholic but accept the church headed from Rome as part of the catholic Church. Having said that I expect that the Verbum brand connotes Roman Catholic. When I see resources that aren't obviously, or obviously aren't, explicitly Roman Catholic included in Verbum branded packages this doesn't change my expectation. This is how I understand Verbum.

When Verbum was created, I made my position clear - that while I appreciate marketing and product acquisition aimed at the Catholic market, the division that I see as more relevant to the software is liturgical/non-liturgical which serves as a shorthand for a wide variety of factors relating to the sense of continuity, history and tradition. These traditional illustrations for Episcopal and Methodists reflect the sense of tradition - Orthodox and Catholic are labeled.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724622#Comment_724622

What is the source of the depictions of the three-legged stool, the house frame, and the Construction of Doctrine Model with their corresponding text?

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724550#Comment_724550

Verbum customers are de facto being treated as second class. Given that this has happened before--the ridiculous delays before the creation of the Catholic Products forum when there should have been no delay at all, for example--I strongly suspect that Damian expects and rejects a projected continued pattern of (assumed unintentional) maltreatment of Verbum users. It's not the responsibility of Verbum staff to make sure they keep up with what the Logos staff are offering; it's the fundamental responsibility of Faithlife the company not to stratify its customers, in fact or in appearance and whether by intention or accidentally, along Logos/Verbum lines.

This.

When the disparity is pointed out there is not even the assurance given that the disparity will be corrected. Rather, any correction is but a 'probability' still in discussion. Will Verbum Now users have to wait as long for parity as they had to wait for anything resembling a Verbum sub-forum?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724821#Comment_724821

... yes ... I hear you.

I think the operative word is patience.

Just my perspective ... I didn't purchase my first Logos library until the fall of 2011 when the first of the Catholic base packages were offered in earnest. December of that year, actually, when I heard Andrew being interviewed by Jimmy Akin on Catholic Answers. Many others (MJ, perhaps you) came way before that. In 2011 it was two whole pages of Catholic products. Yep, all two of them ... okay, maybe two and a half. I bought the Catholic Scholar's base package and would log on every day to see if anything else had been added since the last time I looked.

My point is that it has been both a process and a journey to get to where we are. Now Deacon Kevin has point and the staff looks a little different versus back them. And we have Verbum.com.

I have seen the Catholic products blossom into a very nice set of tools that I use to grow my faith and my study for the Diaconate. I want to see that keep growing. I think I will hang in there and forward fund for one year the potential of Verbum Now, despite the initial bumps in the road.

I would ask that all of us who can do the same. Then next year we will have something even better.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724550#Comment_724550

... it's the fundamental responsibility of Faithlife the company not to stratify its customers, in fact or in appearance and whether by intention or accidentally, along Logos/Verbum lines.

[*] I somehow missed your post until now.

I agree with the above comment, almost unreservedly. I must acknowledge that there are challenges, though seemingly surmountable, Faithlife is helpless to avoid. I need to consider this prayerfully more often.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724829#Comment_724829

... yes ... I hear you.

Steve,

I purchased my first product in late 2000 or early 2001 - Anchor Bible Dictionary. I have a very substantial library and have been round the block a few times with Faithlife - I was even an MVP back in the day.

I have already contributed substantial funds to Faithlife (and continue to do so). I feel no compulsion to offer them money for a diminished product.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/724859#Comment_724859

Some issues are just decisions not in line with customer's desires - it doesn't really take any more work I would think, to include Faithlife Today in all versions of the desktop software. In fact it seems to me to be a possibility that it took MORE work to exclude it from the code base for Verbum. As others have noted, I too am worried about the stratification that will force me to constantly think about whether i should be on Verbum or Logos. That doesn't help anybody.

In other cases it is a question of resources invested on an initiative, and how fast things can proceed. I think it is valuable for FL to hear that customers are not happy with the progress if that's the case. Things would progress faster on Verbum if some of the newer initiatives would not have started or went slower. I am regularly amazed with how many thing FL initiates, many of which have value but are still works in progress. That's just the culture of the company and it's not going to change, and at times it serves it very well (I remember push back when it appeared resources were being spent on mobile at the expense of the desktop - now most would say it's great there is mobile support).

Other times it feels like FL has their own agenda which will take strong precedence over customer needs. (The latest example - I spent a week on the road last week using just the Mac version of 6.2 SR-1, and the number of times I got the "spinning pie plate" was maddening - multiple times a day. A few times I left it, to see if it ever came back - and it just spun for hours while I was gone from the room. I just consider the Mac version substandard only to be used when I have to, and that is a shame. I would love to see Bob sequester himself in a hotel room for a week, where the WiFi is good but not as good as his office, and spend 3-4 hours a day doing actually research with Verbum on a Mac, downloading resources, indexing, searching, etc. He will go crazy.)

That said, it takes a lot of customer voice to convince FL to move a perceived-incomplete function/feature higher up the priority list, and that's very frustrating.

Mike Tourangeau

I asked a question in another thread but I think it was lost ... placing it here. It is in reference to the temporary availability of a couple of the Lexham Bible guides for Logos Now subscribers.

I guess this does not apply to the Verbum Now subscribers. I did not receive any e-mail nor are the Lexham resources in my library. (Just updated thirty minutes ago and they were not downloaded.)

Is that correct?

I am in my free month of Logos now, but don't have any of the Lexham Bible guides....is it for trial users?