Fundamentalist Base Package and King James Only Resource Collection
Comments
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I fully admit I can only speak for the churches I've attended in my relatively brief life. However my travels have taken me to churches in 26 states, and 10 countries (including USA). To date, I've met (counting supertramp - whose posts I always make a point to read, but not counting OP or others who I am less familiar with that have posted in this thread) a grand total of 5 KJV only folks. 3 simply believed that TR was a better document to use as a source, one of them felt like (and I kid you not he said) the NIV and all the newer translations were translated by lesbians and sinners and shouldn't be taken seriously (which made me chuckle).
The fifth guy showed up at a bible study we were having at a coffee shop, simply to make a nuisance of himself. Said that everything that came out of my mouth was damnable heresy because of the translation I was using and attempted to wrestle the group from the scripture we were studying onto his pet subject (kjv). When I pressed him he said that only the kjv is inspired and I (and the group) would be going to hell for reading from the NASB.
I highly doubt guy 5 represented the opinions of the entire movement. But there it is any way.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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While I know "enough" people that would market a KJV-only type collection, I like the OP's post to make the collection as a "fundamental" collection. In addition to including the KJV, TR, and HMT, there's additional resources that could round out this collection. TBS Journals would be interesting to have, many of the books mentioned above would be interesting to have, as well as The Fundamentals could be included, as well as PCC has a list of recommended resources for building one's library (Barnhouse Commentaries, etc). Throwing those in, maybe some other older English translations (Wycliffe and Tyndale), and some resources from A Beka (their Bible Doctrines and Genesis and Revelation books would be interesting to have) and you've got a solid collection that would appeal to a good set of users, and I would personally be able to recommend this collection to various churches and colleges I know.
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
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David Ames said:
They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.
I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:David Ames said:
They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.
I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.
That's a graceful way of putting it. In addition to the question of which base textual tradition to use, my sense is that there has also been a concern over some of the interpretive choices of newer English translations, which are perceived by many in the movement as theologically liberal.
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EastTN said:MJ. Smith said:David Ames said:
They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.
I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.
That's a graceful way of putting it. In addition to the question of which base textual tradition to use, my sense is that there has also been a concern over some of the interpretive choices of newer English translations, which are perceived by many in the movement as theologically liberal.
For many of these people it is far more than manuscript choice. I have read very heated attacks at why the NKJV version can not be trusted. What is being asked for is a package where you have only the KJV (although it might be acceptable to have the 1611 version as we as the 1769 version that is in current use). But this becomes possibly one of the issues with this "base package" would Logos even consider releasing a base package with only one translation? For the most part I would logically think the NKJV and even the Amplified Bible could be acceptable since they preserve the TR tradition but only annotate in notes the textual variants. I do want him to get his package but I do believe it ends up a more difficult thing when the base package is limited to one translation. I get quite the laugh when I think of NASB or HCSB as being liberal, I do not think the KJV people see them so much liberal as simply heresy or diabolical corruption.
-Dan
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KJB1611 said:
I should have been more clear--I was making TWO suggestions, one for a KJV-only collection, and one for a fundamentalist base package. They were two separate suggestions.
I haven't seen much direct discussion inclusive of this clarification by the OP.
A KJV-only collection or bundle would be an interesting resource. I'm not a KJV-only adherent, but a collection of pro-KJV-only resources would be useful for a variety of reasons.
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Some replies to comments above:
Xegesis had stated;
The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them.
My response: I am KJV-only, but I teach Greek and Hebrew at an undergraduate level and at a seminary level. I can sight read most of the Greek NT, and am memorizing John's Gospel in Greek, and read the Greek and Hebrew Textus Receptus every week. In church, as preaching is done from the KJV, I follow along in my Greek TR. You can get a free 1st year Hebrew class on my website, faithsaves.net (1st semester is up, 2nd semester is coming, Lord willing). Perhaps, Xegesis, you would do well to purchase a KJV-only bundle yourself to get a bit more of an accurate idea of what KJV-only people believe. Are there some people who are KJV only who have very strange ideas? Sure, just like in just about every other theological position. Does KJV-only mean hide your head in the sand and ignore the Biblical languages? No. Thanks.
Also, I am thankful for the work James White has done dealing with Islam, Catholicism, etc. Regrettably, when dealing with KJV-only people he seems to pick out the most extreme and most indefensible people, like Mr. Anderson. In my view, at least, Ruckmanism is extremely harmful to the KJV-only position because it paints it in a very bizzare light. I wish Mr. White would agree with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith he subscribes to as an elder at a Reformed Baptist church and recognize that "The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages," and recognize that when his own confession of faith quotes 1 John 5:7, Mark 16, etc. it means the Textus Receptus is the Word of God, not a critical text that did not exist nor was in use by God's people and thus was not kept "pure in all ages."
Response to abondservant;
One can find here:
http://www.fundamental.org/index.php/schools
a list that is far from comprehensive of KJV-only Bible colleges (this one is restricted to Baptists, excluding KJV people in other denominations). There are lots and lots and lots of us, and many of us have Logos.
Response to N. B. Mick:
Thanks for reproving Xegesis. Let me suggest, though, that perhaps not all of us KJV-only people are unable to see beyond a self-drawn circle. Thanks again.
Response to Graham Owen:
I like Barnes' Commentary--it is great. My point was that it is not something on the textual debate like the books above, and so it would not be part of a KJV-only package which would deal with textual and translational issues.
Response to Dan Francis;
Good point--a KJV-only collection would definitely do well to have a 1611 KJV replica--which I think is in the public domain-- as well as the 1769.
Thanks for all the comments.
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I feel ignored[:'(] as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position.[;)] However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I feel ignored
as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position.
However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.I respect and most likely agree with your position. For me the Christian thing to do is to support KJB1611 and those like them as they attempt to follow Jesus in how they are lead by the Spirit. I love your fallacy hound but try to just let him play lovingly with all God's children.
-Dan
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Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that the fallacy hound was taking sides ... responses keeping him awake came from both sides of the issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15).
James White
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Dear Dr. White,
I would be very interested in hearing your response. Is your program available for free download? Can I call in to it (if I am not at work and have free time to do so)? Thanks.
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Dr. James White said:
I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15)
I look forward to hearing your answer.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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LBCF?
EDIT: also it appears one can call into the program, and it is free from his website.
http://vintage.aomin.org/dividingline.html
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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LBCF= London Baptist Confession of Faith. All historic Baptist confessions assumed the Textus Receptus; see the historical analysis here:
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ahh ok, I AM familiar with that.
I was thinking Long Beach something. But your answer makes more sense.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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MJ. Smith said:
Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that the fallacy hound was taking sides ... responses keeping him awake came from both sides of the issue.
Poor puppy [:(] I can see that for sure.
-Dan
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Dr. James White said:
I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15).
Dr. White, I was pleasantly surprised to see your post. I recently discovered the Sermon Audio app on Android and have been listening to you in the car during my commute for the last week or so. It just so happened that I was listening to one of your broadcasts about the KJV on the way to and from church this past Sunday, so I did a double take when you showed up on this thread! Any chance you can get with Faithlife and coordinate a sale on your book tomorrow since you will be responding to a comment on the Logos forums?
To everyone else, sorry to temporarily change the subject, and I hope I am not violating forum guidelines by my request.
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Dr. James White said:
I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15).
James White
Welcome to the forums! Great response on the DL.
For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com
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John Kight said:
Great response on the DL
Which can be viewed here: https://youtu.be/ZtbFp3Qr9bA
[Edit] I would also add that for those unfamiliar with Dr. White's program, this episode would be a good exemplar, as the subjects are at the same time eclectic and related.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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My thanks to KJB1611 for raising the issue of a fundamentalist base package and a King James Only resource collection. Some of the further suggestions by people as to what might be included are also very helpful. If Faithlife agrees to the proposed collections for development, I would seriously consider investing in them.
Personally, I regard the King James Bible as having a singular authority above and beyond the modern versions and it would be very useful to have more resources around that perspective. The modern versions in my Logos collection are there for comparative purposes, but having works by writers such as Dean John William Burgon would also allow a more informed critique of the reasoning used within some of those versions.
Keep well
Paul
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I'm still listening to the youtube video of Dr. White. I've heard of him, heard good things about him, never directly heard him before.
So far I agree with a lot of his conclusions RE the new quaranic fragments, but I am not sure about some (mainly one) of his premises. He says its properly basic that any first semester student of islam should be able to tell which era it was written in based on the (basic textual criticism) arabic (and ink etc). I agree that this work needs doing, but I'm not sure any first semester student will be able to look at the arabic, the ink, the vellum, and so forth and KNOW whether its real or not. I'd argue that the same is true of the average christian with a semester of study on Christianity would be unable to know these things about Greek or Hebrew. I've spent some time studying islam, and I wouldn't be able to answer those questions by looking at the images of the manuscript - further its clear that Dr. White can't (yet) answer those questions either or he'd have given them. So the process is perhaps a bit more complicated.So far - other than that, its been interesting.
Edit: I liked what he had to say about the TR, and whether he's being true to the LBCF.
I LOVED what he had to say about facebook groups, and how people envoke his name in the process of.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I would like to draw attention to the response to James White's video here:
http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/08/more-james-white-on-version-issue.html
I intend to publish a reply also, Lord willing, although I have not gotten around to it yet.
I would like to debate Mr. White on the topic below.
The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the King James Version and its underlying Greek text better than the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it.
Affirm: Thomas Ross
Deny: James White
or:
The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it better than the King James Version and the Greek Received Text.
Affirm: James White
Deny: Thomas Ross
In relation to the original topic on this forum, I suspect that James White himself and anti-KJVO people would themselves buy a KJVO collection so that they could better oppose the dangerous heresy of believing in the perfect preservation of Scripture as taught by the London Baptist Confession of Faith.
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Sorry but I don't read beyond the title of an article when the title is a personal attack.
Please take this to Christian Discourse.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dear M. J. Smith,
Thanks for the comment. If you don't want to read the response I linked to above because of the title, that is fine. However, I trust that you will apply the same standard to James White's video, which has not a few personal attacks, misrepresentations, and fallacies in it, and refrain from watching either it or the response to it I linked to above.
Thanks.
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I assure you I maintain the same standards of logic and manners to everything I read without regard to my personal stance on the matter. And until both sides of the KJVO debate recognize that the Western Church is not historical the major church of the world, I'll not bother to read either side.
BTW I taught my kids that "he did it first" or "but everyone does it" was reason to sic the logic hound on them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dear M. J. Smith,
You might be interested in the popular level work "The Trail of Blood" and John Christian's scholarly 2 volume history of true churches at:
http://faithsaves.net/catholic/
for a study of where Christ's true churches have been from the 1st century until the present.
Also, if by "Western Church" you mean Roman Catholicism, you might be interested to find out that the Textus Receptus of the KJV is essentially the text copied by Eastern scribes rather than a product of Roman Catholic Latin scribes.
Thanks.
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I am not sure "trail of blood" is properly academic.
Fallacy hound may like it however (that is if he likes being called upon).L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I thought this thread was about requesting a Fundamentalist Base Package and King James Only Resource Collection.........
I would buy it.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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This is not the appropriate forum for this discussion - please read the guidelines. I am sufficiently informed on alternative canons and manuscript traditions to know rather precisely Eramus' sources, his modifications based on comparison to other texts, to know the variations between Eramus text and the Patriarchal text of the Orthodox (Byzantine) Church, to know that Eramus access to manuscripts was severely limited and of comparative recent province when he accessed them ...And pointing to an anti-Catholic polemic page is bad form in these forums (again see guidelines). The purpose of these forums is to allow everyone using Logos/Verbum to feel comfortable coming on the forums, asking questions and receiving answers.
It is very appropriate to ask that a bundle of KJVO materials be offered. It is highly desirable that a Fundamentalist base package be offered ... assuming I understand correctly what is intended by "fundamentalist" ... a question that was not answered IIRC.
And to clarify ... by Western Church I mean the Church in the West - primarily Latin based; by Byzantine Church I mean the middle strip geographically - primarily Greek based; by Eastern Church I mean the Church to the East of Byzanthium - primarily Syriac based. For a relevant bibliography see the canon comparison interactive tool.
For anyone wanting to read an academic support for the Textus Receptus, I'd recommended John William Burgon"s The Revision Revised (1881), Edward Miller's A Guide to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament (1886).or Edward F. Hills' The King James Version Defended: A Christian View of the New Testament Manuscripts (1956).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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