Fundamentalist Base Package and King James Only Resource Collection

Dear Logos,

Good day! I have noticed a few areas where books that my theological tradition is sympathetic to are not on Logos. I think a lot of these would sell among the thousands and thousands of fundamental Baptists in the USA and the world. I would like to suggest a new base package for fundamentalists. You have a Baptist, Anglican, and even an Adventist collection, but there is more difference between a fundamentalist and modernist Baptist than between a Baptist and a Reformed conservative.

Also, I would like to suggest that you create a King James Only resource collection, featuring works such as:

David Otis Fuller:

Which Bible?

Counterfeit or Genuine?

True or False? The Westcott-Hort Textual Theory Examined

Kent Brandenburg, et. al. Thou Shalt Keep Them: A Biblical Theology of the Perfect Preservation of Scripture

D. A. Waite: Fourfold Superiority of the King James Bible

Thomas Strouse: The Lord God hath spoken (http://www.bbc-cromwell.org/publications.shtml)

The Identity of the New Testament Text, Wilbur Pickering (http://www.walkinhiscommandments.com/pickering3b.htm)

David Cloud:

Answering the Myths on the Bible Version Debate

Bible Version Question & Answer Database, The

Faith vs. The Modern Bible Versions: A Course on Bible Texts and a 10-Fold Defense of the King James Version

For Love of the Bible

Glorious History of the King James Bible, The

Modern Bible Version Hall of Shame, The

Things Hard to be Understood

What About Ruckman?

Why We Hold to the King James Bible

Other books:

Translators Revived, McCure

“And These Three Are One”; A Case for the Authenticity of 1 John 5:7-8 Rooted in Biblical Exegesis, Jesse M. Boyd

The King James Version Defended, by Edward F. Hills

Forever Settled, Jack Moorman

Conies, Brass, and Easter: Answers to Twenty-One “Problem” Passages in the Authorized, King James Version, Jack Moorman

The Revision Revised, John Burgon

The Causes of Corruption in the Gospels, John Burgon

The Causes of the Corruption of the Traditional Text, John Burgon

The Last Twelve Verses of Mark, John Burgon

The Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, Frederick Nolan

Logical Criticisms of Textual Criticism, by Gordon Clark

A New Plea for the Authenticity of the Text of the Three Heavenly Witnesses, Charles Forster

The Antiquity of the Hebrew Language, Letters, Vowels, and Accents, John Gill

Articles/Essays at the links below (http://faithsaves.net/bibliology/ --the books above are there also)

How Long Were the Original Manuscripts Around? Considerations on the NT Autographa and Early NT Apographa from Scripture and Patristic Writers

The Canonicity of the Received Bible Established From Baptist Confessions

The Debate over the Inspiration of the Hebrew Vowel Points

Evidences for the Inspiration of the Hebrew Vowel Points

The Prologue to the Canonical Epistles by Jerome: Ancient Testimony to 1 John 5:7

A Declaration of My Own Position on the Inspiration and Preservation of Holy Scripture

“They Pierced My Hands and My Feet”: the KJV reading of Psalm 22:16

Daniel 3:25: “the Son of God” or “a son of the gods”?

From the Far Eastern Bible College:

http://www.febc.edu.sg/Doctrine of Perfect Preservation.htm

Miscellaneous (from http://faithsaves.net/bibliology):

The Grammatical Blueprint Bible — The Textus Receptus Diagrammed With Interlinear English Translation, made by a fundamental Baptist scholar (I can talk to those who have the rights to this very valuable work, which is a sort of diagrammed interlinear, which would be worth having as a stand-alone module and as something in standard logos base packages, something comparable to Acccordance's diagram module (http://www.accordancebible.com/store/details/?pid=GNT-T.diagram)

I believe a collection of this kind would sell well as a stand-alone and would be worth including in a fundamentalist base package.

Thank you very much.

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Comments

Robert M. Warren

Hi K:

You might also be interested in the historical value of the English Bible Collection on Community Pricing:

https://www.logos.com/product/16808/english-bible-collection

We need a boatload of bidders to belly up to the Parbar and join in on this one.

Dan Francis

While not something I would be interested in I can understand the appeal to others.... Logos has many resources that would seemingly fit in well to your package.

Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bible Notes

What the Bible Is All About: Bible Handbook, KJV, rev. ed.

*KJV Bible Commentary

*King James Version Study Bible (KJVSB)

Modern English Version (MEV) (Might fit in)

*Daily Bible Reading (4 vols.)

AMG Bible Essentials (unfortunately I was unable to find a Complete WordStudy Bible (KJV) and word study dictionaries without the bundling the NASB and NA 27, obvious items you would not be interested in).

*Barnes' Notes on the Old and New Testaments (26 vols.) (I realize there are numerous good classic commentaries based on the KJV but I have always found this one very good).

-Dan

* are items i do personally own in Logos as well as the KJV WordStudy Bible in other software.

abondservant

I suppose that might be a niche market. I've only ever met a handful of KJV only folks, and even fewer from the "only the KJV translation is inspired" movement.

Matthew

I agree that it would be useful to have these titles in Logos format, but I question whether there is enough here to warrant an entire base package. I would be more sympathetic to them being included in a topical bundle. Perhaps the KJV Bundle, Majority Text Bundle, Textus Receptus Bundle, etc. I could also see a large Textual Criticism package that would contain the types of resources mentioned, but also their counterparts on the opposite end of the spectrum. That might be the way to go, as it would theoretically have the broadest appeal and thus make more money for Faithlife. Regardless of where a person stands, such a package would allow for all sides to be studied.

Dan Francis

As I understand it the desire for a package would be to avoid needing to buy what they see as worthless translations. This package should contain the TR and KJV only. It is not what I would choose but I can understand their desire not to purchase modern items that they consider heretical.... To do so they may need to go to something like OliveTree's

The KJV Anniversary Collection includes:

Bibles

King James Version (KJV) - Its traditional and stunning language has impacted countless people throughout its history.
King James Version (KJV) with Strong's Numbers - Powerful word studies are at your fingertips with the Strong's numbering tied to the Enhanced Strong's Dictionary.

Study Tools

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary - Quickly study any passage with this classic commentary.
Jamieson, Faussett & Brown Commentary (JFB) - This time-honored critical commentary on the whole Bible gives insight to understanding Scripture.
Nave's Topical Bible Index - Explore over 6,000 topics and over 100,000 Bible verse references.
Enhanced Strong's Dictionary - An expansion of James Strong's ground-breaking work, this dictionary is linked to the KJV Strong's Bible text.
Olive Tree KJV Concordance - Both an English and Englishman's concordance, this resource empowers both your word studies and your cross-references.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge (TSK) - Let the Bible interpret itself with these indispensable, exhaustive cross references.

Devotionals

Daily Light Devotional - A beloved classic devotional for morning and evening, taken entirely from the Bible.
Spurgeon's Morning and Evening - Penetrating and touching expositions of Scripture by the "Prince of Preachers."

Something like the above collection is I believe what is being asked for. The trouble is I am not 100% sure you can get get original language tie ins without buying a package.

-Dan

Kent

I suppose that might be a niche market. I've only ever met a handful of KJV only folks, and even fewer from the "only the KJV translation is inspired" movement.

Dr. Adrian Rogers used the KJV and once said, "I am not KJV only, however, I love the KJV because I think it is not only a good translation but a wonderful piece of literature.

OLD JOKE - a man once said: "if KJV was good enough for Paul and Peter, its good enough for me."

My first Pastor is KJV only. He is a great and faithful man who continues to pastor and preach at 86.

Veli Voipio

Would some sort of theology filter (visual filter) do the job? [^o)]

Levi Durfey

I would like to suggest a new base package for fundamentalists.

The Works of Harry Ironside would make a great addition to a Fundamentalist Package/Collection:

https://www.logos.com/product/4557/the-works-of-h-a-ironside

elnwood

I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.

Graham Owen

I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.

I suspect that this would be the challenge for Logos, a KJV focused bundle as observed elsewhere might work but creating a package with for a group who reject anything from outside of a narrow position would be a real challenge.

BTW - I recognise one of the Burgon texts in the original post as being in my library, there may be others already included.

MJ. Smith

I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.

Whereas I wonder about fundamentalist being combined with KJV-only. None of the fundamentalists I have known (and I have known many) were KJV only types.

abondservant

I wonder if a true fundamentalist would practice separation from Logos because they sell products for liberals and charismatics.

Whereas I wonder about fundamentalist being combined with KJV-only. None of the fundamentalists I have known (and I have known many) were KJV only types.

All KJV only types of fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are KJV only. Actually most is probably more true.

MJ. Smith

All KJV only types of fundamentalists, but not all fundamentalists are KJV only. Actually most is probably more true.

Are you using "fundamentalist" in the sociological sense or in the sense of The Fundamentals by Torrey?

KJB1611

I should have been more clear--I was making TWO suggestions, one for a KJV-only collection, and one for a fundamentalist base package. They were two separate suggestions. Additional titles for a KJV-only base package would be:

Herman Hoskier, Codex B and its Allies

Ditto, Concerning the Text of the Apocalypse

Basically, if it is in the Bible for Today bookstore and it relates to textual studies, it would be worth including here (http://www.biblefortoday.org/)

A book Logos already publishes that would be worth including is Richard Muller's Post Reformation Reformed Dogmatics vol . 2, since the Textus Receptus was THE text of Reformation and post-Reformation-era believers and their confessions of faith.

KJB1611

A fundamentalist base package would not just include KJV-only writers, but would include everyone from parachurch schools such as Bob Jones University to Landmark Baptist writers such as J. R. Graves to the Presbyterian founders of Westminster Seminary such as J. Machen and O. T. Allis to works from Detroit Baptist Seminary such as the 3 volume systematic theology by Rolland McCune to works by Brethren writers to works by men like Chafer and Moody, as well as histories of fundamentalism both by writers like Beale and Dollar who were themselves fundamentalists and those who were non-fundamentalists, such as George Marsden. Even fundamentalist Anglicans such as George Sayles Bishop, who contributed to The Fundamentals edited by Torrey (and who was himself both an advocate of dictation inspiration, KJV-only, and an advocate of the inspiration of the Hebrew vowel points) could be included.

KJB1611

In response to some of the comments above:

Mr. Warren, thanks for the suggestion. I think I have already bid on it!

Mr. Francis, Thanks. Some of those people are not KJV-only (e. g., Barnes), and none of the works deal with textual questions.

abondservant, certainly it is a niche market, just like an SDA base package or just about any other Logos collection. However, it is quite a big niche. I can probably give you a very substantial number of seminaries, colleges, and/or Bible Institutes that are KJV-only, with thousands and thousands and thousands of graduates.

Integ, great suggestion--Ironside would definitely be good in there.

Elnwood, a fundamentalist would not have the people in the SDA, Roman Catholic, etc. products sold by Logos preach in their churches. Biblical separation means not engaging in common ministry, not refusing to read a book or use a tool written by someone with theological error. Fundamentalists use lexica written by theological modernists such as BDB without violating their (Biblical) convictions on separation. Thanks.

Of course, books on separation such as Pickering's Biblical Separation or Brandenburg's A Pure Church should be included in a fundamentalist base package.

Thanks all.

Xegesis

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles to this crowd.

Graham Owen

From memory one of the reasons that Logos introduced the "tradition" focused collections was the criticism that the standard base packages were too fundamentalist/evangelical in content.

Would definitely like to see more of Burgon as he is badly misquoted by so many and so being able to read him in context would be of real value. Shame with Burgon is that he did not write more.

Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.

https://biblia.com/media/388945-2721812--

NB.Mick

Xegesis,

we are in the Suggestions forum here. There is a longstanding practice here to not belittle or criticise those suggestions - Faithlife will anyway decide independently upon whether it's worthwile to go after the suggested things or not. But in the best interest of all users and Faithlife, the forums are a place for nice conversation among many groups who hold different presupposations regarding 'authority' and many other things.

I think it's encouraging that someone from within the group comes here to ask for such resources, which might help them in their bible study. Doing such with Logos may help some to see beyond the edge of their self-drawn circle - and it may help others to be better students, pastors, teachers, elders, parents within the circle.

To put material together (probably in a "library builder bundle" first rather than a real base package) wouldn't hurt Faithlife, and such material might be of wider interest anyway.

Mick

Matthew C Jones

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on as the KJV only crowd can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles.

{boldface emphasis mine} I disagree. This popular saying is more accurate,, "The King James Bible is God's word for the English-speaking peoples." The King James only churches recognize foreign language translations to be useful and have been known to refer to the Hebrew and Greek for word studies.

I belong to an IFB KJB-only church and I have 22,770+ resources that include

Logos 6: Collector's Edition, Master Bundle, XL, Reformed Portfolio, Baptist Diamond, Anglican Diamond, Lutheran Platinum, Pentecostal & Charismatic Silver .

Logos 5: Verbum Capstone, SDA Silver

David Ames

The KJV only group is one group faithlife shouldn't waste their time on, because at the end of the day they can care less what the original Greek and Hebrew says. The KJV is the final authority over the original Greek and Hebrew to them. I honestly don't think they would sell a lot of bundles to this crowd.

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.

Dan Francis

Thinking a bit more about a KJV Only collection I think most of us would prefer something that covered both sides of the debate accompanied by some training videos on using the New Testament Manuscript Explorer to examine the evidence for ourselves.

I am not sure that would be considered acceptable as a package by the person who requested it. I suggested barnes for example because on the 1 John coda Barnes mentions the problems with it and offers theories for and against it. I included it as a possible commentary and apparently for him Barnes would not be acceptable. I am not trying to be overly critical of his desire, but I am not sure the best things in Logos library to include in such a package. Because generally Logos base packages start out at $300 and contain around 200 resources. Logos has stated on several occasions they have no desire to have a cheaper stater package. Therefore to get a KJV only package set up you need to have a significant number of resources if we are to include only very pro TR only resources that defend the integrity and wording I am not sure 200 resources will be found and if a large number of the resources are not already in Logos there becomes an issue. Looking at John Gill's treatment of the coda he may be an acceptable one but if Logos needs to add in mostly new it will likely require thousands of preorders before it will ever be made. We have strong KJV users like SuperTramp who have a broad selection of resources and he and others like him may be able to flesh out an acceptable collection. The question then ends up will Logos create it, I hope thy do for the users desiring it, but generally a base package is only created when a significant number of required resources are already in Logos.

-Dan

Bill Hardecker

I agree with KJB1611. I would also add the works of Edward F. Hills and Everett and Peter Van Kleek.

Bill Hardecker

Everett Fowler to be exact...sorry about that.[:O]

Xegesis

Thanks Mick, my goal was only to assist faithlife in case they were wondering if it was worth investing their resources in building this package. It is from 20 years experience of being in IFB KJV Only Churches. My wife's church phone number was 1-800-KJV-ONLY. I'm very familiar with how MANY(not all) in this group approach things. For many it's, "All I need is my KJV Bible". That is why I don't see this being worth the time for faithlife to invest in. However ,while I now disagree with the IFB KJV Only movement, I do respect and appreciate them for believing that God's word is the final authority for their life and I consider most my brother and sister in Christ.

Xegesis

Watch Steven Anderson's interview of James White and you will see examples of a KJV Only individual who refused to believe the original language over his KJV Bible. That's an example of what I meant by the KJV being the Final Authority.

Nathan Parker

I know a solid group of colleges and churches that would be interested in this package. I would probably pick of the package myself since I'll probably be teaching in one that would make use of this collection. It would also need access to these two resources:

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/113439.aspx

Additionally, TBS has a set of journals and resources in general that would enhance this package for sure, so Faithlife/Logos would want to collaborate with them on it. Collaboration with PCC/A Beka Book for this package would be good as well.

MJ. Smith

They care what the original text was - they just think that the 9 used by the translators of the KJV were a better pick then the few that the Textual Critics [from the KJV only view] worship.

I think this can be more charitably described as a preference for the Western Church tradition over the Byzantine (central) or Eastern (oriental) Church manuscript tradition.

Virgil Buttram

I should have been more clear--I was making TWO suggestions, one for a KJV-only collection, and one for a fundamentalist base package. They were two separate suggestions.

I haven't seen much direct discussion inclusive of this clarification by the OP.

A KJV-only collection or bundle would be an interesting resource. I'm not a KJV-only adherent, but a collection of pro-KJV-only resources would be useful for a variety of reasons.

KJB1611

Some replies to comments above:

Xegesis had stated;

My response: I am KJV-only, but I teach Greek and Hebrew at an undergraduate level and at a seminary level. I can sight read most of the Greek NT, and am memorizing John's Gospel in Greek, and read the Greek and Hebrew Textus Receptus every week. In church, as preaching is done from the KJV, I follow along in my Greek TR. You can get a free 1st year Hebrew class on my website, faithsaves.net (1st semester is up, 2nd semester is coming, Lord willing). Perhaps, Xegesis, you would do well to purchase a KJV-only bundle yourself to get a bit more of an accurate idea of what KJV-only people believe. Are there some people who are KJV only who have very strange ideas? Sure, just like in just about every other theological position. Does KJV-only mean hide your head in the sand and ignore the Biblical languages? No. Thanks.

Also, I am thankful for the work James White has done dealing with Islam, Catholicism, etc. Regrettably, when dealing with KJV-only people he seems to pick out the most extreme and most indefensible people, like Mr. Anderson. In my view, at least, Ruckmanism is extremely harmful to the KJV-only position because it paints it in a very bizzare light. I wish Mr. White would agree with the 1689 London Baptist Confession of faith he subscribes to as an elder at a Reformed Baptist church and recognize that "The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages," and recognize that when his own confession of faith quotes 1 John 5:7, Mark 16, etc. it means the Textus Receptus is the Word of God, not a critical text that did not exist nor was in use by God's people and thus was not kept "pure in all ages."

Response to abondservant;

One can find here:

http://www.fundamental.org/index.php/schools

a list that is far from comprehensive of KJV-only Bible colleges (this one is restricted to Baptists, excluding KJV people in other denominations). There are lots and lots and lots of us, and many of us have Logos.

Response to N. B. Mick:

Thanks for reproving Xegesis. Let me suggest, though, that perhaps not all of us KJV-only people are unable to see beyond a self-drawn circle. Thanks again.

Response to Graham Owen:

I like Barnes' Commentary--it is great. My point was that it is not something on the textual debate like the books above, and so it would not be part of a KJV-only package which would deal with textual and translational issues.

Response to Dan Francis;

Good point--a KJV-only collection would definitely do well to have a 1611 KJV replica--which I think is in the public domain-- as well as the 1769.

Thanks for all the comments.

MJ. Smith

I feel ignored[:'(] as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position.[;)] However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.

Dan Francis

I feel ignored as I posted the strongest objection to the TR-only position. However, I am glad I was ignored because these forums are not for defending theological positions these are for exchanging resource information about theological positions. Besides some of the responses are making fallacy hound strain at his leash.

I respect and most likely agree with your position. For me the Christian thing to do is to support KJB1611 and those like them as they attempt to follow Jesus in how they are lead by the Spirit. I love your fallacy hound but try to just let him play lovingly with all God's children.

-Dan

MJ. Smith

Sorry - I didn't mean to imply that the fallacy hound was taking sides ... responses keeping him awake came from both sides of the issue.

Dr. James White

I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15).

James White

KJB1611

Dear Dr. White,

I would be very interested in hearing your response. Is your program available for free download? Can I call in to it (if I am not at work and have free time to do so)? Thanks.

Matthew C Jones

I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15)

I look forward to hearing your answer.

abondservant

LBCF?

EDIT: also it appears one can call into the program, and it is free from his website.

http://vintage.aomin.org/dividingline.html

Matthew

I will respond to this post, and the allegations regarding the LBCF (which I believe to be horrifically errant), on my webcast, the Dividing Line, tomorrow (7/28/15).

Dr. White, I was pleasantly surprised to see your post. I recently discovered the Sermon Audio app on Android and have been listening to you in the car during my commute for the last week or so. It just so happened that I was listening to one of your broadcasts about the KJV on the way to and from church this past Sunday, so I did a double take when you showed up on this thread! Any chance you can get with Faithlife and coordinate a sale on your book tomorrow since you will be responding to a comment on the Logos forums?

https://www.logos.com/product/43390/the-king-james-only-controversy-can-you-trust-modern-translations

To everyone else, sorry to temporarily change the subject, and I hope I am not violating forum guidelines by my request.

Paul

My thanks to KJB1611 for raising the issue of a fundamentalist base package and a King James Only resource collection. Some of the further suggestions by people as to what might be included are also very helpful. If Faithlife agrees to the proposed collections for development, I would seriously consider investing in them.

Personally, I regard the King James Bible as having a singular authority above and beyond the modern versions and it would be very useful to have more resources around that perspective. The modern versions in my Logos collection are there for comparative purposes, but having works by writers such as Dean John William Burgon would also allow a more informed critique of the reasoning used within some of those versions.

Keep well

Paul

abondservant

I'm still listening to the youtube video of Dr. White. I've heard of him, heard good things about him, never directly heard him before.

So far I agree with a lot of his conclusions RE the new quaranic fragments, but I am not sure about some (mainly one) of his premises. He says its properly basic that any first semester student of islam should be able to tell which era it was written in based on the (basic textual criticism) arabic (and ink etc). I agree that this work needs doing, but I'm not sure any first semester student will be able to look at the arabic, the ink, the vellum, and so forth and KNOW whether its real or not. I'd argue that the same is true of the average christian with a semester of study on Christianity would be unable to know these things about Greek or Hebrew. I've spent some time studying islam, and I wouldn't be able to answer those questions by looking at the images of the manuscript - further its clear that Dr. White can't (yet) answer those questions either or he'd have given them. So the process is perhaps a bit more complicated.

So far - other than that, its been interesting.

Edit: I liked what he had to say about the TR, and whether he's being true to the LBCF.

I LOVED what he had to say about facebook groups, and how people envoke his name in the process of.

KJB1611

I would like to draw attention to the response to James White's video here:

http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/08/more-james-white-on-version-issue.html

I intend to publish a reply also, Lord willing, although I have not gotten around to it yet.

I would like to debate Mr. White on the topic below.

The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the King James Version and its underlying Greek text better than the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it.

Affirm: Thomas Ross

Deny: James White

or:

The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it better than the King James Version and the Greek Received Text.

Affirm: James White

Deny: Thomas Ross

In relation to the original topic on this forum, I suspect that James White himself and anti-KJVO people would themselves buy a KJVO collection so that they could better oppose the dangerous heresy of believing in the perfect preservation of Scripture as taught by the London Baptist Confession of Faith.

MJ. Smith

Sorry but I don't read beyond the title of an article when the title is a personal attack.

Please take this to Christian Discourse.

KJB1611

Dear M. J. Smith,

Thanks for the comment. If you don't want to read the response I linked to above because of the title, that is fine. However, I trust that you will apply the same standard to James White's video, which has not a few personal attacks, misrepresentations, and fallacies in it, and refrain from watching either it or the response to it I linked to above.

Thanks.

MJ. Smith

I assure you I maintain the same standards of logic and manners to everything I read without regard to my personal stance on the matter. And until both sides of the KJVO debate recognize that the Western Church is not historical the major church of the world, I'll not bother to read either side.

BTW I taught my kids that "he did it first" or "but everyone does it" was reason to sic the logic hound on them.

KJB1611

Dear M. J. Smith,

You might be interested in the popular level work "The Trail of Blood" and John Christian's scholarly 2 volume history of true churches at:

http://faithsaves.net/catholic/

for a study of where Christ's true churches have been from the 1st century until the present.

Also, if by "Western Church" you mean Roman Catholicism, you might be interested to find out that the Textus Receptus of the KJV is essentially the text copied by Eastern scribes rather than a product of Roman Catholic Latin scribes.

Thanks.

MJ. Smith

This is not the appropriate forum for this discussion - please read the guidelines. I am sufficiently informed on alternative canons and manuscript traditions to know rather precisely Eramus' sources, his modifications based on comparison to other texts, to know the variations between Eramus text and the Patriarchal text of the Orthodox (Byzantine) Church, to know that Eramus access to manuscripts was severely limited and of comparative recent province when he accessed them ...And pointing to an anti-Catholic polemic page is bad form in these forums (again see guidelines). The purpose of these forums is to allow everyone using Logos/Verbum to feel comfortable coming on the forums, asking questions and receiving answers.

It is very appropriate to ask that a bundle of KJVO materials be offered. It is highly desirable that a Fundamentalist base package be offered ... assuming I understand correctly what is intended by "fundamentalist" ... a question that was not answered IIRC.

And to clarify ... by Western Church I mean the Church in the West - primarily Latin based; by Byzantine Church I mean the middle strip geographically - primarily Greek based; by Eastern Church I mean the Church to the East of Byzanthium - primarily Syriac based. For a relevant bibliography see the canon comparison interactive tool.

For anyone wanting to read an academic support for the Textus Receptus, I'd recommended John William Burgon"s The Revision Revised (1881), Edward Miller's A Guide to the Textual Criticism of the New Testament (1886).or Edward F. Hills' The King James Version Defended: A Christian View of the New Testament Manuscripts (1956).

Thomas Ball

I would like to draw attention to the response to James White's video here:

http://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/08/more-james-white-on-version-issue.html

I intend to publish a reply also, Lord willing, although I have not gotten around to it yet.

I would like to debate Mr. White on the topic below.

The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the King James Version and its underlying Greek text better than the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it.

Affirm: Thomas Ross

Deny: James White

or:

The Scriptural paradigm of preservation fits the Greek critical text and modern Bible versions translated from it better than the King James Version and the Greek Received Text.

Affirm: James White

Deny: Thomas Ross

In relation to the original topic on this forum, I suspect that James White himself and anti-KJVO people would themselves buy a KJVO collection so that they could better oppose the dangerous heresy of believing in the perfect preservation of Scripture as taught by the London Baptist Confession of Faith.

As MJ and others have mentioned, these forums are for discussion regarding Faithlife and the products Faithlife produces. Though suggesting resources can easily stray into theological discussions this is not the place for them. Please refrain from such conversation in the future. Here is a link to our forum guidelines https://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx.

Thank you.

David Ames

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[[Warning: Some topics get 'flamed' but just ignore those replies]]

Matthew

Just adding a suggestion that if there is a KJV resource collection released, Faithlife might want to use it as an opportunity to review and beef up the Textus Receptus offerings. Specifically I am referring to (in no particular order):

1. Including at least one edition of the Greek New Testament by Erasmus. See https://community.logos.com/forums/p/113732/753444.aspx

2. Including a COMPLETE copy of Scrivener's Greek text. From what I can tell, Logos offers Scrivener in three flavors, two of which are missing the preface and all three of which are missing an appendix mentioned in the preface. See https://community.logos.com/forums/p/113850/754069.aspx

3. Including the 1633 text of the Elzevirs. This was the edition with the famous statement in the preface, “Textum ergo habes, nunc ab omnibus receptum: in quo nihil immutatum aut corruptum damus” (“You have therefore the text now received by all: in which we give nothing altered or corrupt.”). It is from this that the term "Textus Receptus" arose, yet this edition does not appear to be available in Logos. All I see is this, which only has a modern preface (although it is not labelled as such), not a preface from the original publication: https://www.logos.com/product/1795/elzevir-textus-receptus

4. Updating any other relevant TR texts that may only be partial texts. Points 2 and 3 make me question if relevant parts are missing from other texts. I don't know. Others may be better able to comment on this.

5. Including at least one edition of Beza's text.

Yes, these texts only vary in minor ways, especially after printing errors are taken into consideration, but they also have historical and academic value. Since I think I already made my point here, I will spare the Logos community from having to read threads entitled "Has anyone seen Beza?" and "Has anyone seen the Elzevirs?" [:)]

Darrell Todd Maurina

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/753751#Comment_753751

I know this is an old thread from 2015 and the original poster last posted in August of last year, but I want to follow up on this:

"Thus, the fact that the Waldensian Bible contained 1 John 5:7 is very significant for a KJVO of my stripe and counterbalances its absence in the majority of MSS copied by Eastern Orthodox monks."

Let me preface by saying that we use the KJV at Hazelgreen Reformed Chapel, we sent our daughter to our local Christian school which is KJV-only, and while my position is not KJV-only, I have no problem with using the KJV. Like a fair number of conservative Calvinists who use the KJV, I'm less pro-KJV than I am critical of most of the alternatives that seek to replace it.

That means I'm somewhat aware that some of the arguments in favor of the KJV use the translation Peter Waldo paid to have made into Occitan (a dialect of southern France and the Italian Alps that was mutually intelligible to speakers of standard French and standard Italian) as an argument in favor of a Textus Receptus position, but it's not a subject I've studied in detail. I'd appreciate links to references on the subject.

I don't want to make arguments attacking the modern translations or the critical text underlying most of them; my question has a limited focus of why some KJV-only advocates and some Textus Receptus advocates cite Peter Waldo's translation as an argument in their favor.

MJ. Smith

The place to start in thinking about the issue is "Is the text of the Bible determined by the Church or by secular scholars?"