Dubious books about origins. Why does Logos promote them?
I was reading one of my “Bible Study” magazines and came across a book review of “The Lost World of Adam and Eve”. It beggars belief that this book would even be mentioned in an evangelical magazine. There is absolutely no room for extra-biblical interpretations of Genesis. I am disgusted about this. Why don’t you have books from people who have studied Genesis all their lives – Creation Ministries International – they have many PhD science professors who can attest that Genesis is literally true. I get so angry when Christians side with the world on origins – don’t they realise how damaging this is to evangelism?!
Why are most of our young people leaving the church and becoming atheists? It is because the church has a foot in both camps when it comes to the authority of the Bible.
Please, please get some good books on Creation. Here’s one: The Genesis Account by Jonathan Sarfati. A 700 page commentary on the first 11 chapters of Genesis. I challenge you to read it. You will have no doubt about the Biblical account of creation being 6 literal days. “There was evening and there was morning, day one.”
Instead, I find my Gold Logos populated with dubious characters such as N.T. Wright. Why?
There is no Dallas Willard, no John Ortberg, no books on mission, no missionary biographies. I could go on.
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Heh. I came to this headline totally agreeing with the intent but with the exact opposite understanding, i.e." Yeah, why does Logos continue to sell bogus YEC books that fail to take into account ancient Near Eastern context? Oh wait..."
Walton is quite good. So is Peter Enns. So is Mark Smith's The Priestly Vision of Genesis 1.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Might I suggest In the Beginning We Misunderstood, by two Evangelical pastors and professors who, in light of the ancient Near Eastern material (NOT "the world" NOT "science" NOT "Darwinism", no longer hold to young earth creationism?
https://www.logos.com/product/47044/in-the-beginning-we-misunderstood-interpreting-genesis-1-in-its-original-context"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Rodney - Welcome to the forums! [:)]
If you have resources you would like to see, please do suggest them. The forums, however, are not a place to debate theological doctrine or preferences. If you want to discuss the finer points of your theological positions, please visit the Christian Discourse site.
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Rodney, I haven't seen the review in question and these forums are not the place to have a discussion on what theological position is the correct one because you will find many varied positions on a range of topics are held by those participating in these forums. Bob Pritchett has spoken in the past about their publishing philiosphy in this post: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/35460/266673.aspx#266673
The answer might not be the one you want but here are a couple of snippets. I encourage you to read the whole thing so what I have highlighted below is taken in context of the whole statement.
Bob Pritchett said:As an electronic bookseller, Logos Bible Software does not represent any theological filter (and never has). You should not assume that every electronic book we sell represents orthodox Christian belief, or any particular understanding of such. What you can be sure of is that content we sell is labeled with the author, publisher, and other descriptive metadata that will help you identify who is responsible for the content. We trust that our users will exercise discernment in their choice of digital content just as they would when walking through a paper library or bookstore, and we will soon be adding support for user reviews and ratings where you can get and share other perspectives beyond the marketing copy from a book’s dust-jacket.
Bob Pritchett said:But isn’t Logos a Christian company? I believe X, and I’m okay with your having books from the slightly misguided believers in Y, but the people who believe in Z aren’t even Christians!
True. For many values of Z, I agree with you: they’re beyond the bounds of orthodoxy. But Logos is a library, not a church, and the Z-content relates to the Bible and its study, whether you choose to read it for instruction or in order to refute it.
This last comment I believe would apply to their philosophy as a business as to why they publish material that differs from your theological position and even that of mine and everyone that participates on this forums. In fact about their early days and deciding what to publish Bob makes the observation:
Bob Pritchett said:And we discovered there were even some theological disagreements between the three company founders. To sell only what all three of us could recommend without reservation would be to offer few tools at all.
And I'll leave the final word to Bob also:
Bob Pritchett said:All these people who have objected to content Logos sells have been sincere, passionate about God’s Word and His truth, and wanted nothing but to keep others from inducement to error. I can’t help but respect that, and I am the same way.
I want to speak up for the truth. I want to challenge those who are in error, to call out false doctrine and poor teaching, and to be unashamed of the Gospel. And I am: in my home, in my church, and in one-on-one conversations. Were I called to preach, I would do so with boldness and authority.
But I am called, for now, to an office, not a pulpit. And in this office we create, sell, and support a library. And I believe that a library is a useful thing, and that it is useful even when it contains error, heresy, the silly and the sacred. Because students and teachers alike need access to resources to learn, to grow, to be encouraged and challenged and corrected, and even to refute.
There is room for a church on every corner, and for a book to be published expounding on each theological distinction. It is possible for us as individuals to live and teach without compromise on even the smallest point; we can even maintain a church united in a specific understanding of the truth. But a library can rarely grow beyond a single book without some compromise, and we’d all find it frustrating if each library (or digital library tool) was restricted to one viewpoint.
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Hello Rodney
Before you make such a statement like Logos does not have "books on missions" or other topics. Please first do some searching.
Here are 35 pages with 60 resources to a page of books on missions.
I don't know what is it that you don't like about N.T. Wright but i see many good things from him.
Nicholas Thomas “Tom” Wright (1948–) has been named by Christianity Today as one of our time’s top theologians. He is currently professor of New Testament and early Christianity at St. Andrews University. Wright holds a bachelor’s degree in theology, a master’s in Anglican ministry, and a DPhil, all from University of Oxford.
A fellow and chaplain at Cambridge from 1978 to 1981, he then served as assistant professor of New Testament language and literature at McGill University in Montreal. Before becoming a chaplain, tutor, lecturer, and fellow at Oxford in 1986, Wright served as dean of Lichfield Cathedral, canon theologian of Westminster Abbey, and bishop of Durham.
We should give respect to our brothers and sister in the Faith with the Love of God.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
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OK sorry but I was angry. And I must say that I cannot see any basis for any man exalting his own "knowledge" above the written word. If God meant something else by the Genesis account I think He would be very capable of telling us just what he meant to say. If God says He created the Heaven and the earth in 6 literal days, then we should believe him, otherwise get your shredder out and start shredding the Bible. Become an atheist.
I personally believe that if you don't believe the Bible you are not a Christian. You have invented a god of your making and you are deceived.
Death came about because of sin. There was no death before Adam and Eve, so how can you claim long-earth. There are dinosaurs being found with marrow still in the bones. If you go to the Anchor Wat in Cambodia there is a Brontosaurus carved into the wall. All is not as science tells us. They are liars.
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To be blunt, the forums are not the place to inform me of your beliefs. Nor is it the place for me to inform you of mine - which clearly are very different than yours in part, I suspect, because of very different personalities. For one thing, I am very persnickety when it comes to facts ... beginning with the fact that there is no Brontosaurus (more often accused of being a Stegosaurus) carved into the wall of Angkor Wat as anyone with any actual knowledge of Hindu temple carvings could tell you. I am, however, very curious as to where you read such a ludicrous idea<deleted by author>
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry my mistake. Here is the website:
http://creation.com/did-angkor-really-see-a-dinosaur
You sound very indignant. I will go to the other forum but it doesn't look like I will get very far trying to explain what I am talking about. You think I just invented these things? You can't make this stuff up. OK Sorry I was wrong it was a stegosaurus, not a brontosaurus. Sounds like you might know more about Buddhist temples than you do about Genesis.
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Rodney Gynther said:
You sound very indignant.
I am - I am always indignant/annoyed/frustrated/flabbergasted/stupefied by sites such as the page you quote that spread false information as fact precisely because people who know nothing about the subject don't know that it is garbage "scholarship". <deleted by author>
Rodney Gynther said:You can't make this stuff up
Yes you can and yes, some popular pseudo-scholars do - for fame, money and fun. Some of it makes great (humorous) reading.Rodney Gynther said:Sounds like you might know more about Buddhist temples than you do about Genesis.
I assume that you are joking. However, it does require the appearance of the great hound ... or that I take offense instead of responding in humor.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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You won't get better scholarship than Creation Ministries International. They are a panel of 15 PhD scientists and they publish their Journal of Creation which is a peer reviewed scholarly publication. I am certain they would not have this on their website if they hadn't checked it out.
OK I should start again with something positive. I have been reading my "Bible Study" magazines and I have to tell you that I think it is an excellent publication. There are few magazines that have done all things superbly - "Bible Study" is one of them. I thoroughly enjoy reading the articles, they are easy to read, concise, informative, provocative etc. And I love the book reviews. But it did get me thinking about my e-library, and I do honestly think that such things as missiology have been overlooked. For example I am reading Arthur Glasser's "Announcing the Kingdom". Every Christian should read that book. But I find nothing in my e-library by this amazing scholar and writer. Why is that?
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Here is a different review of Walton's book.
http://creation.com/review-walton-the-lost-world-of-genesis-one
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<deleted by author>
To all other forum readers: I apologize for participating in the taking of a thread far outside the forum guidelines. I'd quote Logos resources if I could. But I do get very angry at "scholars" who quote Asian sources on the assumption that a Western audience can't or won't recognize the falsified data. I first ran into this in my early twenties when I found a theosophist quoting passages from the Tengyur and Kangyur that simply aren't quotes if you check the Tibetan. In my thirties I ran into a feminist encyclopedia that referenced the index of a book in support of the identification of an Irish goddess with a Hindu goddess ... something the book referenced never proposed nor would anyone with a slight knowledge of historical linguistics believe. So, yes, a false attribution to "uncheckable" Asian sources in support of ideas that don't require such garbage as support does get to me. And tonight I bit. I'll bow out and stay out.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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RHIP! [:P]
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Paul C said:
RHIP!
Spoken like a true military man ... to me the first reading was retiree health insurance plan. [;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I am truly grieved by the level of unbelief I have encountered in just this small discussion. Is it any wonder our children are followers of football and rock stars, when we as "Christians" live such dualistic lives.
I probably will not be having any more discussions on any forum - life's too short and I'd rather talk to someone who has a chance of believing the Bible.
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Rodney Gynther said:
Is it any wonder our children are followers of football and rock stars, when we as "Christians" live such dualistic lives.
Rodney, of the 7 members of the next generation (my children and their cousins) 1 follows sports (and works for a charity); 1 follows rocks stars (and works in the arts), 2 are spouses of ministers, 2 are directors of charities, 1 is a business person married to an artist. None of us - my generation or theirs - lives a dualistic life. Your judgment may speak of your social group but don't assume it applies broadly.
Faithlife, on the other hand, does apply broadly, offering something to Christians who are focused on social service, faith formation, ministries inside and outside the institutional church, counselors, academics, regular Christians simply trying to make it through the day as God wills ... It offers something that speaks to each of them in traditional, modern, post-modern or ancient terms. It offers it to them whether they learn best visually, conceptually, intellectually, emotionally, academically ...
In the forums, we try to assist anyone who uses Faithlife products to use them effectively for their purposes, pursuing their beliefs. I hope to see you in the forums asking questions on the use of Logos software - that's what we are here for and that is what we are (generally) good at.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rodney Gynther said:
I am truly grieved by the level of unbelief I have encountered in just this small discussion. Is it any wonder our children are followers of football and rock stars, when we as "Christians" live such dualistic lives.
I probably will not be having any more discussions on any forum - life's too short and I'd rather talk to someone who has a chance of believing the Bible.
Welcome to the Logos World Rodney- I'm a devote Creationist - thoroughly unashamed of it- and saddened like you, by the acceptance of pseudo- science by todays youth and pastor's but you must recognize it is a sign of the coming end- the abandonment truth by those who claim to be Believers is a sure indication we are well on our way.
Stay faithful even though those around you may not- evolution, same sex marriage, etc. shows God "actively" continues to abandon pagans to their darkened minds.
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Peace and Love to everyone in the forums.[:)]
Belief if a literal 7 day creation will not save you.
Belief in evolution will not save you
A large Logos library will not save you
I never heard a gospel presentation where you must repent and believe in a literal 7 day creation/ evolution or have a large Logos library.[;)]
No it is Jesus who saves and Jesus alone. End of Story.
No more debate, this is not the place.
Lets get back to talking about the software![:)]
Peace & Love to you all
P A [:)]
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LOL- really
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Whyndell, I hope you are not "laughing out loud" at the authority of the Bible, because if you are then you are a lost soul.
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[Y]
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Thank you. At last some sanity.
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Whyndell, I know what you meant.[Y]
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Rodney Gynther said:
Whyndell, I hope you are not "laughing out loud" at the authority of the Bible, because if you are then you are a lost soul.
No
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Perhaps we could return to a discussion on books and the software that supports them. I'd like to clarify a few statements you made.
Rodney Gynther said:There is no Dallas Willard,
Although I would really like to see more Dallas Willard books in Logos there are already a number - https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=dallas+willard&Author=2896|Dallas+Willard&redirecttoauthor=true
Vyrso also carries a number of Dallas Willard's books - https://vyrso.com/products/search?q=dallas+willard
Rodney Gynther said:There is ... no John Ortberg
I also like John Ortberg - see his books in Logos - https://www.logos.com/products/search?q=John+Ortberg&Author=8796|John+Ortberg&redirecttoauthor=true
See his books in Vyrso - https://vyrso.com/products/search?q=john+ortberg
I could go on with books about missions and missionary biographies but you can search for those and will find lots.
I have learned over the years that I need to be careful to really know my facts before I make dogmatic statements. Unfortunately I don't always follow that advice but this thread has reinforced that I need to continue to do so.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Rodney Gynther said:
I am truly grieved by the level of unbelief I have encountered in just this small discussion. Is it any wonder our children are followers of football and rock stars, when we as "Christians" live such dualistic lives.
I probably will not be having any more discussions on any forum - life's too short and I'd rather talk to someone who has a chance of believing the Bible.
Let me start off by saying I hold to young earth and young universe - this way you know I am on your theological "team" in that regard. I'm not some voice from a different camp, but a voice from the same camp, and some similar presumptions regarding the topic at hand.
Think of it from this perspective. IF you need to combat another point of view, you are best served by reading primary sources from that point of view.
IF you need to address OEC, or theistic evolution, or something like that then you need to be able to get a hold of their books. It works the same way for the old earthers, or young earth old universe, or theistic evolutionists. They want to read our literature so they can address us properly.
If all I ever read were Dennet, Behe, Dembski, and Woodward, I'd be position biased in the intelligent design camp.
It is a value to me that I can get books from my position, and books that aren't from my position. Its important to read widely - and in my view - not hold anything more dearly than scripture. if it conflicts with scripture then its rejected.
I fully understand that because of the breadth of users of the forum, not everyone will hold the bible in the same regard that you and I do, nor will they approach reading it from the same set of "a priori" assumptions. The best thing we can do for them is Pray that through the reading of God's Word we will all be drawn closer to Him, and closer to the truth of scripture. I pray that same thing for my self every time I open the Bible. We know God's word won't return a void, and I posit God wants us to believe right things about Him. Therefore I believe this is one prayer he consistently answers.
Now think about how you've behaved in this discussion as compared to your opponents. Who exhibited more grace? Truth is important yes - but this forum doesn't exist to find truth. Who was more loving? Who was more Christ like? If someone disagreed with you and then challenged your salvation, how do you think you would respond? If from no other perspective than from one that seeks to help you reach people you disagree with in the future, do you think tossing insults helps or hurts your cause?
Blessings sir, and I do hope you decide to stick around the forum and use honey rather than vinegar in the future.
Edited to link resources by some of the ID guys in Logos.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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What?! "A large Logos library will not save you."
And all this time .... [:(]
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abondservant said:
It is a value to me that I can get books from my position, and books that aren't from my position. Its important to read widely - and in my view - not hold anything more dearly than scripture. if it conflicts with scripture then its rejected.
I fully understand that because of the breadth of users of the forum, not everyone will hold the bible in the same regard that you and I do, nor will they approach reading it from the same set of "a priori" assumptions. The best thing we can do for them is Pray that through the reading of God's Word we will all be drawn closer to Him, and closer to the truth of scripture. I pray that same thing for my self every time I open the Bible. We know God's word won't return a void, and I posit God wants us to believe right things about Him. Therefore I believe this is one prayer he consistently answers.
Now think about how you've behaved in this discussion as compared to your opponents. Who exhibited more grace? Truth is important yes - but this forum doesn't exist to find truth. Who was more loving? Who was more Christ like? If someone disagreed with you and then challenged your salvation, how do you think you would respond? If from no other perspective than from one that seeks to help you reach people you disagree with in the future, do you think tossing insults helps or hurts your cause?Well said! I am YEC but cannot hold that view to be necessary for salvation. If I want to refute another's position, I need to be able to state what the other position is so clearly that the proponents of that view would say, "Yes that is exactly what I believe." That is why we need to have access to the other view's books.
But we also need to communicate in love. I love the John Wesley quote:
[quote]
"Are you persuaded that you see more clearly than me? It is not unlikely that you may. Then treat me as you would desire to be treated yourself upon a change of circumstances. Point out to me a better way than I have yet known. Show me it is so, by plain proof of Scripture. And if I linger in the path I have accustomed to tread, and am therefore unwilling to leave it, labour with me a little; take me by the hand, and lead me as I am able to bear. But be not displeased if I entreat you not to beat me down in order to quicken my pace: I can go but feebly and slowly at best; then, I should not be able to go at all. May I not request of you, further, not to give me hard names in order to bring me into the right way. Suppose I were ever so much in the wrong, I doubt this would not set me right. Rather, it would make me run so much the farther from you, and so get more and more out of the way. Nay, perhaps, if you are angry, so shall I be too; and then there will be small hopes of finding the truth. If once anger arises, this smoke will so dim the eyes of my soul, that I shall be able to see nothing clearly. For God’s sake, if it be possible to avoid it, let us not provoke one another to wrath. Let us not kindle in each other this fire of hell; much less blow it up into a flame. If we could discern truth by that dreadful light, would it not be a loss rather than gain? For, how far is love, even with many wrong opinions, to be preferred before truth itself without love! We may die without the knowledge of many truths, and yet be carried into Abraham’s bosom. But if we die without love, what will knowledge avail? Just as much as it avails the devil and his angels!"
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Yes you are right - I showed little grace and much annoyance. My apologies. I don't actually think that not believing the literal 6 days will send you to hell. But I do think that it shows the person who is old earth has quite possibly not been confronted with the value he has given "science" in relation to God's written word. I was like that. I didn't really care if the 6 days were literal or not, but then I realised that this showed a disrespect for God's word. Jesus certainly believed in 6 literal days as did other Bible authors.
The really scary thing for me is the lack of respect for God's word. As one blogger said, that shows we are in the end times and there is a great falling away. I'm just surprised that Logos customers are among those liberal ones.
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As alabama24 already mentioned, Faithlife has a free designated site for theological disagreements/discussions at http://christiandiscourse.com/ .
Please review the first two forum guidelines here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx .
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I heard the siren - knew the thought police were on the way- buy our product but keep ur mouth shut!
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They may be available but I have the Gold bundle and they aren't bundled with that. That was my point. Just a bit surprised that so many big names are missed in the gold bundle. Maybe I have misunderstood the purpose of the basic bundles. I would appreciate a specialized bundle on creation, one on mission biographies, one on missiology. That would be nice.
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Hi Kevin, I'm sorry but I am a bit old to understand how forums operate. I was directed here by the person who answered my original complaint email. Then, if I remember rightly, I started this discussion. However I don't know how to transfer this discussion into its correct pigeon hole. Wow you guys are pedantic! So if it is important to do that then please transfer the diiscussion to the right place.
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Rodney Gynther said:
I was directed here by the person who answered my original complaint email.
If the point was to have you make suggestions, this is the right place (although it would have been better in the "suggestions" forum rather than the "general" forum). Else, the employee should not have directed you here.
Rodney Gynther said:I don't know how to transfer this discussion into its correct pigeon hole. Wow you guys are pedantic! So if it is important to do that then please transfer the diiscussion to the right place.
Users can't move threads between forums, and "Christian Discourse" is a different site entirely.
The forum rules are essentially "be respectful of other users." I have strong views on the subject you brought up, but you won't know what my views are because this isn't the place to talk about them. Personally, I don't generally get into theological or political debates online even though I have strong opinions on both.
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What a thread, what a thread!
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ah!! now this is a discussion we can safely have hereRodney Gynther said:They may be available but I have the Gold bundle and they aren't bundled with that. That was my point. Just a bit surprised that so many big names are missed in the gold bundle. Maybe I have misunderstood the purpose of the basic bundles. I would appreciate a specialized bundle on creation, one on mission biographies, one on missiology. That would be nice.
As you can see from my signature I believe in, and have heavily invested in Logos - and will continue to do so.
Let me share a little bit of my philosophy. These "base" packages are a good start, but by virtue of their cost can't possibly hope to be completely comprehensive on every topic. While they are quite broad and have some good coverage on many things, they don't cover everything to the depth a person, and especially a specialist might need. Fwiw I wish they had a few more key authors on the topic of missions, but I make my suggestions, and have been blessed to see a few of those make their way into Logos.
Think about it from this perspective - if you were to go to a library with only 600 books (or whatever) is it likely to have the depth of coverage on elephants (or whatever) that a library with 5 million books might have? Certainly not. Logos grows in power the more books (of quality) its fed. I'm up around 13k titles now, and there are times when I hit a subject and have to buy more to have the relevant positions on the subject (and sometimes have to reach beyond Logos to find these things). The base package is a great start, and I believe in and buy those. they are probably the most cost effective way to get started in Logos. Journals are great too, they have the new journal bundle on sale. I bit the proverbial bullet and bought the first version, and the cost of the upgrade to the second version is only about 70$ iirc which is quite nice. Better to get in now so that you're only buying new journals each quarter.
So any way, once you get a BP, cherry pick through the other BP's looking for the items in them that matter most to you. Figure out their cost individually, and compare the separate cost of the things in a BP that you want vs the total cost of the package. In most every case the BP is cheaper than the sum of its most interesting parts. For instance there are a pair of commentaries in "Collectors Edition" that I am interested in, and the cost of the upgrade (for me) is cheaper than either one or the other of the commentaries. But if I buy collectors edition, I get both for the price of one, and bunches of other books that might prove useful one day.
Secondly, I'd investigate the topical bundles. I have a bunch of them, creation/ID/evolution isn't my area, and so I can't speak to their contents, but I would do the same thing with those. Pick up the relevant ones.
THEN check the store and make a wishlist full of titles that you want on the subject (and if you're like me can't yet afford) adding to it as you can. With time and care you'll have an outstanding library on exactly the things you need.
I'd say a base package is a great start. Its sufficient for those of us (like me) who aren't specialists. But if you are going to be studying something in depth, then extra attention is required.
Its been a blessing, and the best investment I've ever made.
Finally if you don't have a relationship with a sales person, get to know one. I use Rusty Davidson (rusty.davidson@faithlife.com). He's always quite attentive. Having a good salesperson, whom I now consider my friend has been very good for me, my library, and my wallet. There are sales sometimes that aren't listed on the website, and when one will be of interest to me (because he knows me) he reaches out. Its mutually beneficial. We talk about once a month regardless and pray for each other. Any how, blessings as you grow your library. Logos is a wonderful tool.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
I heard the siren - knew the thought police were on the way- buy our product but keep ur mouth shut!
Whyndell - this was totally uncalled for. Faithlife has created a forum for such discussions, not stifled them, but they realized, as you have not, what damage it does their business when one set of customers insults another set of customers and makes them feel unwelcome. You clearly have not been the target of such atrocities for if you had been you would appreciate and support Faithlife's position.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
I heard the siren - knew the thought police were on the way- buy our product but keep ur mouth shut!
Whyndell - this was totally uncalled for. Faithlife has created a forum for such discussions, not stifled them, but they realized, as you have not, what damage it does their business when one set of customers insults another set of customers and makes them feel unwelcome. You clearly have not been the target of such atrocities for if you had been you would appreciate and support Faithlife's position.
I agree. This forum was created for support on using the software or helping with problems using the software or for making suggestions (like suggesting that FL add more books of a certain viewpoint). It was made clear that the purpose of this forum is not theological debate. FL is not stifling debate: they created a forum especially for that (http://christiandiscourse.com/). I am quite certain that this debate will be welcomed there. I follow quite a few debates on http://christiandiscourse.com/ and I enjoy it immensely. The problem is not the debate or the differing viewpoints. The problem is that this forum was not intended for debates.
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Rodney Gynther said:
I probably will not be having any more discussions on any forum - life's too short and I'd rather talk to someone who has a chance of believing the Bible.
Please, do join us over at http://christiandiscourse.com/ !
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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MJ. Smith said:Whyndell Grizzard said:
I heard the siren - knew the thought police were on the way- buy our product but keep ur mouth shut!
Whyndell - this was totally uncalled for. Faithlife has created a forum for such discussions, not stifled them, but they realized, as you have not, what damage it does their business when one set of customers insults another set of customers and makes them feel unwelcome. You clearly have not been the target of such atrocities for if you had been you would appreciate and support Faithlife's position.
Faithlife can do as they please - my stated position has remained the same over the last 20 yrs- restriction causes a ton more animosity than just letting someone speak, and then move own. These threads would die out very quickly- but here they come- read back through the thread- 75% are the finger waving "blah, blah" as always.
But what the heck appreciate your concern MJ
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Rodney Gynther said:
Why are most of our young people leaving the church and becoming atheists? It is because the church has a foot in both camps when it comes to the authority of the Bible.
I will try to keep with the spirit of the forum guidelines in this response, so let me start by saying that I fully support the inclusion of SCHOLARLY (or popular level works written by scholars) works which provide viewpoints that are in opposition to my own. For instance, I disagree wholeheartedly with Bart Ehrman's popular level writings, but I wish that they were all available in Logos, as I think that one should be familiar with all legitimate sides of an argument. I say legitimate because I certainly don't believe that we should be able to just propose JUST ANY interpretation of a given issue if there IS NOT some textual or contextual reason to do so.
I think this goes to the heart of your question. Young people are not leaving the church because they ARE being exposed to this kind of material, but because they ARE NOT being exposed to this kind of material. When young people hear from home and church that dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans, and then they go to college and find that compelling evidence certainly seems to prove that they did not, then they falsely believe that they are forced to chose between God and science. They often prove science because they can see it and touch it. Logos provides the arguments from both sides, and this allows parents to talk to their children about these issues so that they don't have to hear about them first in a college or even high school science class. Parents must be willing to prepare their children to think critically about issues, or they will feel betrayed when they find that things may not be as cut and dry as they were taught.
Something like Four Views on the Historical Adam would be useful to get all major views, and it is available in this collection. I would also point out that the author that you so wrongly deride, John Walton, is on the side of a historical Adam. John Walton is wonderful conservative scholar from whom I have learned a tremendous amount about Ancient Near Eastern context and thought, and I don't even agree with all of his conclusions.
You would do well to read more broadly.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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I believe it is pretty cut and dry my self, BUT, I think you're right about how we approach kids on this issue. My nephew is 7, and they are already telling him the earth is xxxxx billion years old. We've had a few discussions about it, and the difference between a theory and fact. Science is guessing and checking until they find a theory that explains what they see and makes sense, but that doesn't mean they've come to the right conclusion.Joseph Turner said:Young people are not leaving the church because they ARE being exposed to this kind of material, but because they ARE NOT being exposed to this kind of material. When young people hear from home and church that dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans, and then they go to college and find that compelling evidence certainly seems to prove that they did not, then they falsely believe that they are forced to chose between God and science. They often prove science because they can see it and touch it. Logos provides the arguments from both sides, and this allows parents to talk to their children about these issues so that they don't have to hear about them first in a college or even high school science class. Parents must be willing to prepare their children to think critically about issues, or they will feel betrayed when they find that things may not be as cut and dry as they were taught.
He loves science, and has decided that he will be the first person to have ever built a time machine. He takes things apart and saves the electromagnets, and capacitors. Its cute. But he loves science and he loves the Lord. He's already reading his bible as well. In fact I was hanging out with him this weekend and he told me that the best book he'd read all week was his kids bible. He's already at 7 struggling with this question. He asked me how I handle it when the bible says one thing and science says another. I told him that most of the time they don't conflict but where they do, I trust God to have preserved His word enough that we can trust it over sciences understanding of a given topic. I told him how butter was bad, then science said margarin was bad, and now butter is good again. Then how eggs were bad, then just the yolks were bad, then don't eat the whites, and now eggs are good again. Science changes, its always trying to find truth and thats good - but the Bible never changes, and is the source of truth. Ultimately science - where it conflicts with scripture will eventually find the truth contained within scripture. I told him the bible doesn't really talk alot about science, but where it has (IE in the psalms where it says the earth is round) its proved to be accurate.
He asked me if its ok if he still thinks the earth is old, and I told him to pray about it, and we'd read scripture together and see if we couldn't figure it out.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Joseph Turner said:
Young people are not leaving the church because they ARE being exposed to this kind of material, but because they ARE NOT being exposed to this kind of material.
At this point I recommend the Vyrso resource Truth Matters: Confident Faith in a Confusing World. The authors demonstrate the gaping holes in Ehrman's doctrine.
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Whyndell Grizzard said:
These threads would die out very quickly- but here they come- read back through the thread- 75% are the finger waving "blah, blah" as always.
They die out ... but we have lost users (and an MVP) because they did not believe that they could in good faith be associated with some of the vitriolic posts. And for many years, I chose very carefully whom I would recommend Logos to. I still would hesitate to recommend it to non-Trinitarian or esoteric Christian groups as some forum members still consider them "fair game". Even the SDA group despite Faithlife obviously marketing to them takes some unfair hits.
To put it in my perspective, I have seen people fired from their job for less offensive language than I have seen on the forums. And I come from a tradition in which the pastor of the church is responsible for all souls within the parish geographic boundaries - regardless of their beliefs. I have seen a pastor go out of his way to make the Muslim wife of a graduate student feel comfortable praying in a Christian church. She spoke no English and the pastor's attitude was to be thankful that she recognized the church as a place of prayer. I have seen a pastor hold a funeral service for the father of an atheist student exiled from her Communist home country - an only child unable to bury their parent. There is no compromise on doctrine or belief, simply compassion towards everyone who comes within your sphere of awareness. Yes, there is a time and a place to gently and effectively correct others' false beliefs, but the forums are not that place. And false statements, name-calling, false accusations, not listening and self-righteousness are never the means.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jack Caviness said:Joseph Turner said:
Young people are not leaving the church because they ARE being exposed to this kind of material, but because they ARE NOT being exposed to this kind of material.
At this point I recommend the Vyrso resource Truth Matters: Confident Faith in a Confusing World. The authors demonstrate the gaping holes in Ehrman's doctrine.
Thanks [Y]
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Wendell please be quite so the others can speak.[:P]
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Jack Caviness said:Joseph Turner said:
Young people are not leaving the church because they ARE being exposed to this kind of material, but because they ARE NOT being exposed to this kind of material.
At this point I recommend the Vyrso resource Truth Matters: Confident Faith in a Confusing World. The authors demonstrate the gaping holes in Ehrman's doctrine.
Yes! I have that one but have not read it yet. That looks like exactly what I was talking about! I will have to read it now. Thanks for bringing that one up!
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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LOL
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I got up this morning and realised this discussion is still going!
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and I will take them all on board. I might even read Walton's book!
I do apologise for my sarcastic comments. I just find myself getting angry with so many things happening in the world, and more and more feel like the church is not having much impact - that makes me sad. Here in Australia, for example, they have just put a stop to Christian Religious Education in public schools, and have replaced it with a "Safe Schools" initiative, in which the children will be taught how to have gay sex, encouraged to used both girls and boys bathrooms, taught how to tape their breasts so they won't grow, etc. These are good reasons to get angry.
I'm sorry for offending people who know Mr Walton (I don't), and Mr Wright.
God bless you all.
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Thanks, MJ. You gently hit the nail on the head.MJ. Smith said:Whyndell Grizzard said:These threads would die out very quickly- but here they come- read back through the thread- 75% are the finger waving "blah, blah" as always.
They die out ... but we have lost users (and an MVP) because they did not believe that they could in good faith be associated with some of the vitriolic posts. And for many years, I chose very carefully whom I would recommend Logos to. I still would hesitate to recommend it to non-Trinitarian or esoteric Christian groups as some forum members still consider them "fair game". Even the SDA group despite Faithlife obviously marketing to them takes some unfair hits.
To put it in my perspective, I have seen people fired from their job for less offensive language than I have seen on the forums. And I come from a tradition in which the pastor of the church is responsible for all souls within the parish geographic boundaries - regardless of their beliefs. I have seen a pastor go out of his way to make the Muslim wife of a graduate student feel comfortable praying in a Christian church. She spoke no English and the pastor's attitude was to be thankful that she recognized the church as a place of prayer. I have seen a pastor hold a funeral service for the father of an atheist student exiled from her Communist home country - an only child unable to bury their parent. There is no compromise on doctrine or belief, simply compassion towards everyone who comes within your sphere of awareness. Yes, there is a time and a place to gently and effectively correct others' false beliefs, but the forums are not that place. And false statements, name-calling, false accusations, not listening and self-righteousness are never the means.
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