Handouts driving me crazy!

Nigel Cunningham

I thought I'd give the Handouts feature a try.

While I love the idea, it's driving me crazy because:

Lots of irrelevant stuff appears. I tried Hebrews 10:19-39 and am getting "Zacchaeus", "On the Road to Emmaus", "Philip & Nathanael Called" and so on.
You seem to always be forced to have enough content to fill 4 pages, even if 90% of it is irrelevant. Let me turn things off without having other things automatically turned on to fill the space. (I might want the blank space for something I'm going to photocopy in).
There is no way to rearrange and resize the material on the page.
More options would be great. Eg word find size, words included, difficulty (ie whether diagonals are used).

Regards,

Nigel

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Comments

George Allakhverdyan

Hi Nigel, good observations, many of those points are being addressed at the moment as handouts is still a work in progress. Currently for (2) you can add blank entries to fill space and as for more customizing (3) and options (4) I will file a case. Thanks.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/9430#Comment_9430

George,

thanks, I actually like the idea of generating handouts for study.

If it was customizable like an exegetical guide or passage guide, that would be great! (you know...sections to check off and on and reorder as necessary)

Bob Pritchett

1. We're working on including a lot more (relevant) content. This should improve.

2. Yes, but we'll look at ways to let you be blank. At the least, you can insert your own blank sections.

3. We aren't going to offer manual editing of the document. A) It's a lot of code, and there are lots of better tools. (Word, Publisher, InDesign, Illustrator, Quark, etc.) The point is to make something quick and easy; if you want to be the graphic artist -- which is fine and legitimate -- we're the wrong tool.

4. To avoid cluttering the UI we're planning to leave these options out of this section, but I'm pretty sure the WordFind will adopt the settings you last used in a standalone WordFind. If this isn't enough we can revisit this.

Nigel Cunningham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/9466#Comment_9466

Hi again.

#3 especially is fair enough. It makes me think about an aspect, though, that I hadn't yet considered: How are we supposed to get the content into these other apps? I can only see a "Print" button. I suppose you could print to a file... This would probably make #2 irrelevant too.

Re #4, you already have "Edit" buttons for each of the blocks. I'd pop these options in there. There's a lot of space wasted at the moment with the preview (you can already see it on the page preview on the right), and the Caption, Credit and Copyright fields seem a bit pointless to me - at least at the moment.

TCBlack

2. You seem to always be forced to have enough content to fill 4 pages...

2. Yes, but we'll look at ways to let you be blank. At the least, you can insert your own blank sections.

What? No! I do not need to have a four page handout every time I do something. Why? what on earth is your mindset in "requiring 4 pages?" It's a completely random requirement with no basis I can comprehend.

Handouts should start with one Blank page and a collection of stuff you can add on the left. Then it should expand to as many pages as necessary to fit the stuff.

Don't add or require anything by default. I don't mind i fyou put the Logos Icon on there, that's fine, but don't require me to have any given length or handouts is effectively worthless.

If I'm teaching kids about the tabernacle and I want only a graphic of the tabernacle and a word-find, shouldn't' that be enough?

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10850#Comment_10850

Scratch some of that, By setting it to Sheet/letter/singleside I'm able to force it to one page, but I feel like I'm pulling teeth the whole way, and random junk keeps being automatically added.

Please, start with a blank page and let me choose what to add, rather than forcing me to figure out how to take away.

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10850#Comment_10850

The mindset is that the handout is a single page document that is always ready to print. You can push content in or out, or re-order the content, but at any given moment it's ready to print a "complete" document.

This is a design choice that we hope reflects an easier to use application. If you want to start with a blank page and fill it up with the content you create and lay it out the way you want it, great. But that's not our handout feature, that's a word-processor / desktop-publishing app / document-editor. There are lots of those out there, and there's no need for us to build another.

This is probably not the answer you wanted, and this is definitely a new strategy for us. Maybe we're going the wrong way. :-) But we're experimenting with features that make more assumptions in the hope that we can become more useful and accessible to more people.

It also lets us write less "duplicative" code -- it really does seem pointless for us to make a more generic document editor. Over time we'd need to recreate Microsoft Publisher. If you want that level of control, which we know many people do, then there are lots of great tools. And maybe we need to make it easy to copy/drag/export the excerpts from the handouts to external tools. But we know lots of people don't take the time to make a handout because of all the overhead, so we want to see what happens if we make it "just print this" easy.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11030#Comment_11030

Bob,

Thanks for your reply, especially in light of my not-too-generous outburst. I do understand now what you want to do. I just think it's the wrong direction.

This is a design choice that we hope
reflects an easier to use application. If you want to start with a
blank page and fill it up with the content you create and lay it out
the way you want it, great. But that's not our handout feature, that's
a word-processor / desktop-publishing app / document-editor. There are
lots of those out there, and there's no need for us to build
another.

I am not asking to add a bunch of my own content. I am asking for a blank page with all of the preconfigured options defaulted to off instead of on.

I feel that it is a mistake to make me take stuff away from the start. I feel a much better interface would have the handout blank and the empty checkboxes to the left. In other words, the precise same setup but with the checkboxes defaulted to off instead of on. That way I can see what's available and add it.

Obviously I disagree with your intent, and that disagreement can become moot real easy as soon as the handout starts making better choices (why do I want the family tree of Jesus or Mary or Zacheus in 1 Peter 1:1-5?). But I can guarantee right now that I'll get very frustrated if every time I want to create a handout I have to uncheck thirty items I don't want. That is not a document that is ready to print from the start. It's a headache.

I know you're trying to read your customers mind and provide them immediately with what they want, but handouts are inherently personal, and will always demand personalization.

If you really want to make the handout busy from the get go than choose 2-4 items that you think will go on every hand out like the passage, a word find and a graphic and leave the rest blank. But please please please do not auto-enable 20-30 items.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11179#Comment_11179

I do like the direction Bob. I do web design, graphics design, and page layout stuff all the time. To be honest, having the simple way to print a quick handout with relevant material would be a great break for me from design work.

BTW, I also have to retract some of what I said about the infographics. I spent some time on it today, and think I will definitely find use for it... especially with my own kids when they ask Bible questions I can easily show them a relative size or measure. Cool!

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11179#Comment_11179

Oh, I should add that starting with only 1 page filled instead of 4 would be better.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11179#Comment_11179

I am not asking to add a bunch of my own content. I am asking for a blank page with all of the preconfigured options defaulted to off instead of on.

After playing a bit with this feature last night (Australian time), I agree with this completely. I had to take off more than I put back on.

Checked items should go to the bottom of the list not to the top.

Jason

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/9483#Comment_9483

the Caption, Credit and Copyright fields seem a bit pointless to me - at least at the moment.

Nigel

I see this as a great "marketing" tool to promote your Church within the community. If, for example, you are having a fund raising day you could have your Church's contact details on a sheet that can be distributed to any children that turn up and you have created an activity for them to do and/or take away. And of course acknowledging Logos for the material is also helping them out [;)]

Nigel Cunningham

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11524#Comment_11524

Nigel

I see this as a great "marketing" tool to promote your Church within
the community. If, for example, you are having a fund raising day you
could have your Church's contact details on a sheet that can be
distributed to any children that turn up and you have created an
activity for them to do and/or take away. And of course acknowledging
Logos for the material is also helping them out

Yeah, I suppose so.

I was imagining that they should be the copyright etc for the particular element. I would have thought Logos would provide those details.

Nigel

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11572#Comment_11572

Just my $.02.

I like the idea of a drag and drop handout tool. I do agree that it would be best to start with either, a ready to go sheet that I could just click a few buttons and print. But how hard would it be to have a "clear page" button so that what has been suggested could then be done. Clear page, then start over adding the content from the list. This would be a nice compromise.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11677#Comment_11677

Kevin,

I could definitely live happy with a "clear" button.

George Allakhverdyan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11677#Comment_11677

Just my $.02.

I like the idea of a drag and drop handout tool. I do agree that it would be best to start with either, a ready to go sheet that I could just click a few buttons and print. But how hard would it be to have a "clear page" button so that what has been suggested could then be done. Clear page, then start over adding the content from the list. This would be a nice compromise.

I like this idea, I'll put in a request.

Darren Paul Wright

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/10854#Comment_10854

You can also start a blank handout through File>Handout. Use "Add Blank Item" at the top of the left column and "Add Item" to search for other items that can be inserted by drag-n-drop.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11915#Comment_11915

Darren,

Thanks for showing me that. It is slightly better. Yet we still require a "clear all" button for the already generated Handouts like the ones that appear in passage guide.

And of course I'm eager for some proper tagging to begin showing a difference. I have no clue why Stephen's accusation and Esther's family tree is included in Nehemiah 6:1-9. The selection of materials in the handouts are so completely random and disconnected that it is in β2 worthless.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11179#Comment_11179

Bob,

Thanks for your reply, especially in light of my not-too-generous outburst. I do understand now what you want to do. I just think it's the wrong direction.

This is a design choice that we hope reflects an easier to use application. If you want to start with a blank page and fill it up with the content you create and lay it out the way you want it, great. But that's not our handout feature, that's a word-processor / desktop-publishing app / document-editor. There are lots of those out there, and there's no need for us to build another.

I am not asking to add a bunch of my own content. I am asking for a blank page with all of the preconfigured options defaulted to off instead of on.

I feel that it is a mistake to make me take stuff away from the start. I feel a much better interface would have the handout blank and the empty checkboxes to the left. In other words, the precise same setup but with the checkboxes defaulted to off instead of on. That way I can see what's available and add it.

Obviously I disagree with your intent, and that disagreement can become moot real easy as soon as the handout starts making better choices (why do I want the family tree of Jesus or Mary or Zacheus in 1 Peter 1:1-5?). But I can guarantee right now that I'll get very frustrated if every time I want to create a handout I have to uncheck thirty items I don't want. That is not a document that is ready to print from the start. It's a headache.

I know you're trying to read your customers mind and provide them immediately with what they want, but handouts are inherently personal, and will always demand personalization.

If you really want to make the handout busy from the get go than choose 2-4 items that you think will go on every hand out like the passage, a word find and a graphic and leave the rest blank. But please please please do not auto-enable 20-30 items.

I have to agree, some of the suggestions further down could improve this but as they stand I wouldn't bother with the handouts from Passage Guide as they stand. Leaving it up to the computer to randomly decide what is relevant to what I am trying to achieve with a handout just doesn't add up at all. And I wouldn't like to think someone gave me a handout in which they hadn't really put anythought into the content either.

Working with a blank handout from FILE menu sounds more useful, but yet to explore that fully to offer definite thoughts on it.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12609#Comment_12609

I feel a little bit better now that I have been able to do some simple editing of a handout, adding a title, inserting a question etc. (and printing it out successfully).

But when it only appears as a simple Word Find or just as an (attractive artistic) sheet with Bible passage printed out - then no, I probably would not use it too much.

BUT my wife creates these "simple" bible passage/question sheets for the Youth group. As a NON power user (but someone with an artistic "eye" etc,) She might then find this a helpful feature. As long as she does not get too frustrated with the edit/insert process...

I need to see if this edit window can paste/insert from Word etc

Steve

John Norman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12613#Comment_12613

Have any of you tried doing a handout for a whole Chapter? I tried doing Isaiah 1:2-31 and it was soooo slooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwww..... Is it possible to turn off the WYSIWYG to make it faster when unchecking boxes, adding empty blocks, and such? Each time I do something, it takes minutes to refresh the screen...

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/13247#Comment_13247

Ditto. The reports as they stand are slower than molasses in mid January. Far from being an instant success, working with handouts are an interminable torture session.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/11030#Comment_11030

The mindset is that the handout is a single page document that is always ready to print. You can push content in or out, or re-order the content, but at any given moment it's ready to print a "complete" document.

Resurrecting an old thread to reiterate a point: Always ready to print is NOT the same as full. Flip it around, just because a page is full of information doesn't mean it's the right information. Less is more. A single word find and the passage should be enough but I have to create a blank section and add about a dozen lines to "make it ready to print." Why not let blank be ready to print? Then at least I can add what needs added.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19030#Comment_19030

"A single word find and the passage should be enough"

I too, could live with that.

Steve

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19042#Comment_19042

"A single word find and the passage should be enough"

I too, could live with that.

Steve

Agreed.... The blank section is neat when you have some specific information or instructions you want to add but not always required. The ability to add a RELEVANT graphic is also great to have when its required.. but being forced to add a whole lot of totally irrevelvant stuff continues to make this feature a white elephant.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20419#Comment_20419

"A single word find and the passage should be enough"
I too, could live with that.

Agreed.... The blank section is neat when you have some specific information or instructions you want to add but not always required. The ability to add a RELEVANT graphic is also great to have when its required.. but being forced to add a whole lot of totally irrevelvant stuff continues to make this feature a white elephant.

Thank you!

Add a blank item is not a fix, it's worse than a kludge, it's a workaround for poor implementation.

I'm a tweaker by nature. I can remember editing config.sys and autoexec.bat files for hours to make my Dos 3.x and beyond computers do exactly what I wanted. I'm the kind of guy who would naturally find workarounds and shortcuts - I do that all the time. But the real bulk, of L4 users will never stand for a feature that demands workarounds and tweaks to make it work at the most basic level

Fix handouts:

Never select anything by default. Ever
Never force fill a page. Ever.
Optimize, optimize, optimize.
Fix printing for non-duplex printers.

Clinton Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/12609#Comment_12609

Leaving it up to the computer to randomly decide what is relevant to what I am trying to achieve with a handout just doesn't add up at all.

My thoughts exactly. It is random, even if the searching becomes more relevant, it will still be hit or miss.

Has the idea that the clipping tool be an input for the handout tool?

You could paste your passage, relevant excerpts from commentaries, parallel passages, dictionary excerpts, your own note clippings into your clipping tool then, poof-voila, completely ready to put into the handout.

There would be bonus points given if you could have the arrangement tools for collum/pane layout like are available under the layouts tab on the main page. That would be the mother of all handouts.

Regards,

Clinton