Payment Plans and you
Comments
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James said:
Most of these changes I can understand why they need to be implemented from a business perspective. There is one change however that I fail to see a sensible explanation for that Glenn has made above;
Glenn Airoldi said:Pay the remaining combined balance over the months allowed, based on the size of your purchase. Note: If the length of your existing plan is greater than 12 months, the length of your new combined plan will be either the number of months allowed with your new purchase, or 12 months, whichever is greater.
Can you tell me why my 27 month plan will be cut down to 12 months for adding something to my plan? This has forced me to cancel all of my pre-orders. Really I am so annoyed beyond description about the fact I received no email or notification about this and now I have to miss out on the long awaited TDOT @ $399 pre-pub price. Do you want to know how I found out about these changes?
Me: Hi, I'd like to add Church Dogmatics to my payment plan.
Sales Rep: Sorry, we have made changes to our payment plans now. You need to pay 25% up front and your existing plan will be cut down to 12 months.
Really you guys could have at least made this effective as of 1st of Jan 2016 or something. I will have to skip on all Christmas/Black Friday specials now too.
The communication on this change has definitely been handled unprofessionally. I don't take issue with Faithlife making business decisions that are best for them, but this is not an example of how a company should communicate with its customers. I still haven't seen this mythical email and don't think a post by a FL employee in the forums is a sufficient substitute.
I realize that Bob has indicated that FL is financially sound, but surely FL must understand that the way in which this change has been communicated conveys a sense of urgency that makes customers uneasy.
I really get the sense that this move is in part intended to promote the cloud-based rental model; until FL weans everyone off the long term payment plan ownership model, there isn't much incentive for customers to switch to the cloud. Other than the occasional resource required for my classes, I don't foresee any major Logos purchases for me in the next 21 months until my current payment plan expires.
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SineNomine said:
You can add a second plan. That second plan will not affect your old one.
Simply adding another plan is not a substitute for the flexible system that was in place. I'm not sure I see the sense in paying multiple monthly admin fees to Logos, period. The question of why this change has taken place still goes unanswered. Can someone please explain this logic of shortening a 27 month plan to 12 months when something is added?
Logos 6 Gold, Logos 7 Reformed Diamond
Alienware R2 17 i7-4720HQ 3.6GHz 16GB RAM 1TB HDD 256GB SSD GTX970 3GB DDR5
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As long as we're discussing FL covering their costs, and their cash flow, I've always been amazed that they don't charge a fee for cancelling a PrePub or CP order at the last minute before it ships. Ditto for returning an order in the 30 day window after delivery.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Shhhh!!!!!
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William Gabriel said:
Shhhh!!!!!
I can appreciate that sentiment, but think about it for a moment.
A small, "re-stocking" fee would help their ability to predict cash flow by weeding out those who routinely abuse this graciousness on the part of FL (and we all know they do exist). Even though at first blush it sounds like FL would be turning the screws tighter, in the long run it would help to make them a stronger, more durable company.
Further thought: It would make sense to prorate the re-stocking fee based on how close to the delivery/shipping date the order is cancelled or returned.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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JRS said:
...I've always been amazed that they don't charge a fee for cancelling a PrePub or CP order at the last minute before it ships.
I think that if this was implemented, you would see PrePub and Community Pricing orders drop. I know that I wouldn't order nearly as much out of fear that I might not be able to pay for it down the road, sometimes years later. Since these titles sometimes take years to produce from the time that you order, you cannot predict the future and know when a shortage of funds might happen. I don't cancel very often but I have done it before. If Faithlife gave hard dates at the time of order, I could understand a charge but you would be able to make your plans a lot more easily too. Also, my understanding is that Faithlife takes into consideration that a certain percentage of people will cancel and they take that into consideration before moving a resource into production by making sure that they have a certain percentage over the cost of actual production. My understanding of that may be wrong but it seems that I have read that before.
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JRS said:
A small, "re-stocking" fee would help their ability to predict cash flow by weeding out those who routinely abuse this graciousness on the part of FL (and we all know they do exist). Even though at first blush it sounds like FL would be turning the screws tighter, in the long run it would help to make them a stronger, more durable company.
I agree with you on this that there could have been some work done here and perhaps even on the general 30 day return policy. I admit there are times where I have been uncertain about a product, purchased it and returned it and I would say that I have probably done this about 20 times this year alone. It's a bit of a double edged sword though. For people who are not in seminary, it is almost impossible to view the content of the more esoteric academic resources or even some of the top commentaries. This is especially the case for Australia, and I am sure for many other countries outside the UK and USA. If I wanted to view some of these resources, I would have to;
1. Purchase from Amazon, pay exorbitant shipping costs plus 40% extra in exchange rate + international transaction fees. Ebay is no better.
2. Purchase as a special order from our major supplier Koorong. Considering they charge nearly $2,000 for HALOT and over $100 per volume of AYB and HERM, these products are naturally non-refundable special orders. The same case for many many other products they sell.
3. Pay for journal subsriptions - some of the journals are reasonable, like SBL's $55 per year membership. You can certainly forget about premium subscriptions though like De Gruyter or Bloomsbury (for LHBOTS etc), priced well out of my reach.
I try not to abuse the 30 day trial as I understand there are costs associated with returns etc. but for many many products I have no hope of viewing, I am dependent upon Logos's graciousness in this sense.
Now that the payment plan changes have rolled in, I have to freeze any future purchases. Probably not such a bad thing really, just a shame I miss out on some excellent pre-order opportunities (if only TDOT came out 2 or 3 weeks ago!).
Logos 6 Gold, Logos 7 Reformed Diamond
Alienware R2 17 i7-4720HQ 3.6GHz 16GB RAM 1TB HDD 256GB SSD GTX970 3GB DDR5
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I was planning to take a new payment plan when my current one expires in December to get Collector's edition. The payment plan changes of now 25% deposit and reduced months have persuaded me I can do without it really. So my wallet is happy although perhaps not Logos as they have lost a sale.
(I also have had no personal email about the changes. And a minor thing but I wasn't impressed by there still being a $5 charge for the 25% deposit payment).
Jim
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Jim Snowden said:
I was planning to take a new payment plan when my current one expires in December to get Collector's edition. The payment plan changes of now 25% deposit and reduced months have persuaded me I can do without it really. So my wallet is happy although perhaps not Logos as they have lost a sale.
Jim, just to clarify, it is either 25% or $500 whichever is less. So depending on what your current dynamic pricing is, you will only have to cough up $500 maximum. Hope this helps.
This is from Glenn Airoldi's post earlier in the thread: Purchase new books, put at least 25% of today’s purchase price on your credit card (or $500, whichever is less), along with the $5 payment plan fee.
So even if you purchased Collectors at full price, you won't have to sell your kidney to afford the 25% of just over $2.5k
Logos 6 Gold, Logos 7 Reformed Diamond
Alienware R2 17 i7-4720HQ 3.6GHz 16GB RAM 1TB HDD 256GB SSD GTX970 3GB DDR5
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I am not necessarily arguing for the implementation of such fees. I have no inside information as to why FL is so gracious w/r to these things ... perhaps they do it for all of the reasons stated above ... perhaps they do it as a loss leader ... only they know. I am only stating my amazement at their current policy.
Still it would seem that if cash flow is a concern, then being able to reliably predict cash flow becomes crucial. Furthermore, it would seem that no matter how much one might sympathize with the reasons stated above in favor of the current, gracious policy(s), a prorated return/cancellation fee could only help FL to remain strong and deliver the service(s) we all desire. As a man once said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch."
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Actually Bob gave a pretty detailed answer earlier in the thread and subsequent details even after that.James said:SineNomine said:You can add a second plan. That second plan will not affect your old one.
Simply adding another plan is not a substitute for the flexible system that was in place. I'm not sure I see the sense in paying multiple monthly admin fees to Logos, period. The question of why this change has taken place still goes unanswered. Can someone please explain this logic of shortening a 27 month plan to 12 months when something is added?
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JRS said:
Furthermore, it would seem that no matter how much one might sympathize with the reasons stated above in favor of the current, gracious policy(s), a prorated return/cancellation fee could only help FL to remain strong and deliver the service(s) we all desire.
If this were implemented it would destroy the Pre-Pub program. When it takes Faithlife more than two years to publish some titles most people would not risk a cancellation fee. I would cancel my remaining Pre-Pub list.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:JRS said:
Furthermore, it would seem that no matter how much one might sympathize with the reasons stated above in favor of the current, gracious policy(s), a prorated return/cancellation fee could only help FL to remain strong and deliver the service(s) we all desire.
If this were implemented it would destroy the Pre-Pub program. When it takes Faithlife more than two years to publish some titles most people would not risk a cancellation fee. I would cancel my remaining Pre-Pub list.
Unfortunately with the way FL handles things you won't know till one day you go to cancel one and you find there is a fee...not like they would announce with any real notice that they are making a change.
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Dustin Pearson said:Super.Tramp said:JRS said:
Furthermore, it would seem that no matter how much one might sympathize with the reasons stated above in favor of the current, gracious policy(s), a prorated return/cancellation fee could only help FL to remain strong and deliver the service(s) we all desire.
If this were implemented it would destroy the Pre-Pub program. When it takes Faithlife more than two years to publish some titles most people would not risk a cancellation fee. I would cancel my remaining Pre-Pub list.
They would have a very hard time collecting a fee that was not part of the original purchase or program agreement- can't see that happening- they would have to have it clearly stated within the purchase agreement or sorry, so sorry you cannot collect it.
Unfortunately with the way FL handles things you won't know till one day you go to cancel one and you find there is a fee...not like they would announce with any real notice that they are making a change.
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Dustin Pearson said:
Unfortunately with the way FL handles things you won't know till one day you go to cancel one and you find there is a fee...not like they would announce with any real notice that they are making a change.
I doubt this could happen... it clearly states that PRE-PUBS can be canceled at anytime and you are not charged till it ships. To institute a cancelation fee retro actively would almost certainly be illegal and almost certainly result in some kind of class action being filed against FL knowing how litigious americans are.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
knowing how litigious americans are.
Ambulance chasers also have families to feed [:D]
For those unfamiliar with the term, Ambulance Chasers are lawyers specializing in personal injury cases. They seem to follow the ambulance to the hospital in order to sign up clients before the ER doctor gets through.
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I appreciate the transparency and the honesty of this company. There are not many companies where the ceo answers marketing questions directly and quickly when they really don't have to. I am continually amazed at that and also a little chagrined at how many still find fault.
Thank you Bob and company.
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
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JRS said:
A small, "re-stocking" fee
That might make sense, except that no stock ever left the shelf (so to speak).
In some states, it is illegal to charge a cancellation fee unless there was a contract in effect, and in the case of CP and Pre-pub orders, no contract is in effect. While Pre-pub could be altered to make a contract in effect (by giving consideration up front for an item), CP cannot, because some CP items never reach publication (apparently), and there is no definite term by which to judge delivery/non-delivery.
So charging a 're-stocking fee' for CP items is equivalent to me charging you, right now, for something you might someday order from me.
Please don't confuse 'grace' with a business model. They are not the same.
Your last sentence bears out why the 'fee' can't be done as you say, as there is no 'shipping day' on CP orders.
I'm assuming that FL operates under laws in the State of Washington. They can operate on that basis at will, but the courts have held that when transactions take place across state lines, certain Federal regulatory guidelines also become involved. I suspect these are why the system is set up as it is.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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For some of us, this is a sudden and dramatic change. I would have suggested that new people coming on board get into the flow of Logos plans under new policy guidelines. Those who have been in Payment Plan mode for a long time (me, since 2008) might be gently weaned off the current plan and brought more in line with company's desired changes more slowly. I love Logos and am committed to the software and the company, but this is too much too quickly. It is hard to swallow.
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I'm surprised there hasn't been any recent postings because the payment plans now have another option.
Let's say your old plan is $100 a month for 17 months.
You add a new plan at $50 a month for 6 months and combine it with your old plan.
You now pay $150 a month for the first 6 months and then $100 a month for the remaining 11 months.
In addition, you pay the 25% down, but only 1 $5 processing fee per month.
They can stack and combine multiple purchases this way.
They get their money faster this way.
I did this a few weeks ago and it works OK.
Not as good as the old way, but only 1 $5 processing fee per month.
Dale Heath
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I believe this has been around for a few months now.
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Yes, but as usual, it's not documented anywhere.
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Dale E Heath said:
I'm surprised there hasn't been any recent postings because the payment plans now have another option.
Does this happen automatically if you buy something on a payment plan? I can't see an option to combine a new plan with an old one.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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No, you have to talk to a sales rep and work out all the details, number of payments, not charging a $5 fee for the down payment, how many payment plans you have and which ones to combine, the advantages and disadvantages of doing this, etc.
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I've always found that talking with a sales rep when adding onto an already existing payment plan is way more fruitful in coming up with a plan that is more to your liking.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I'm curious if the payment plan changes from nine months ago are impacting people's purchase decisions now that L7 has been released.
It has definitely impacted my spending habits over the past nine months. Since the announcement I've spent a little more than $800 compared to approximately $2,700 for the nine months prior to the announcement. Nothing new has since been added to my payment plan. Now that I think about it, even if I found a "must have" L7 package, I would want to wait until the final 12 months on my current plan run out.
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Erik said:
I'm curious if the payment plan changes from nine months ago are impacting people's purchase decisions now that L7 has been released.
It has definitely impacted my spending habits over the past nine months. Since the announcement I've spent a little more than $800 compared to approximately $2,700 for the nine months prior to the announcement. Nothing new has since been added to my payment plan. Now that I think about it, even if I found a "must have" L7 package, I would want to wait until the final 12 months on my current plan run out.
Mine to. I have spend far less money the last few months on Logos than in the previous period. As I stated in another post: it is becoming more and more difficult staying current with Logos than ever before.
My current Payment Plan is nearing its end (at last) and I do not think I will ever again make use of a Payment Plan. I would rather try to borrow money from my bank if I have no other choice than making a big purchase through FL. Another reason for this is the fluctuations in international currencies. My local currency took a nosedive against the Dollar few months back. In effect I ended paying almost 35% more every month for my payment.
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People buying L7 and spending more than $100 are able to get a payment plan without having to put down 25%.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
People buying L7 and spending more than $100 are able to get a payment plan without having to put down 25%.
Good to know! I assume we have to call Customer Service to accomplish this?
Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series
WordTruthLifeBible.com
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Mark Barnes said:
People buying L7 and spending more than $100 are able to get a payment plan without having to put down 25%.
The percentage down isn't really a concern for me. How Logos is linking multiple payment plans is more of an issue for me; are they stacking by front loading the new plan over the initial months or is it averaged out over the life of the newly combined plan like they used to do?
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You can get one of these payment plans online. You'll pay an equal amount upfront and then for the duration of your plan.
I didn't have an existing plan, so I'm not sure how that will work. However, by emailing sales I was able to merge three separate purchases into one plan, without penalty.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
You can get one of these payment plans online. You'll pay an equal amount upfront and then for the duration of your plan.
I didn't have an existing plan, so I'm not sure how that will work. However, by emailing sales I was able to merge three separate purchases into one plan, without penalty.
Thanks Mark. I'm more curious than looking to make the move, but I'll call CS to get clarification so that I'll be armed with the right info if things change.
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I haven't made any significant purchases since the change. My biggest purchase was about $65.00 since. My investment in Logos is over $41K, so they really lost some serious money, though I'm only one person. I looked at L7, but I'd be in for another $1,600 on top of the almost $3,200 I have on a payment plan now. And I need the 24 months back.
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I too haven't made any major purchases, biggest is $65, since the change. I have 12 months left, at $80/month which is my book budget.
I did inquire about an L7 package, but I was told my current plan wouldn't change and that if I were to add L7 it would just be another payment. I passed on that. Until my current plan is paid of in year (~19 months when they changed the plans) I won't be adding or doing anything more.
I will say that for one specific product an exception was made for me, but it required much to accomplish it and that it would not be allowed again.
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