New Feature: Lemma in Passage (Dataset)
What is it?
The Lemma in Passage section scours your commentaries for every occurrence of the original-language lemma in the passage you want to investigate. For instance, the Greek word "logos" appears in the context of a discussion about John 1:1–even in resources not explicitly about the Gospel of John. Results are categorized according to the dictionary form of the word, and organized by resource.
How does it work?
Lemma in passage can be accessed either in the Exegetical Guide or the Bible Word Study Guide. Each guide presents data uniquely. In the passage guide, each lemma that occurs within the context of the passage you're studying will be displayed under the heading of that specific lemma. Results can appear in any commentary—even if it's not a commentary on the specific book you're studying—that contains a discussion of both the passage you're referencing in the guide and that lemma.
The Bible Word Study Guide displays all commentaries within your library that contain a discussion of the Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic word you've looked up. This can become especially overwhelming if you look, for instance, for an article, conjunction, or other such high frequency words.
Where can I learn more?
- Watch this feature in action: https://logos.wistia.com/medias/4d1d19pqti
- https://www.logos.com/product/55915/lemma-in-passage
Comments
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This feature works for me in Passage Guides and Exegetical Guides, but doesn't seem to return any results in the BWS. Any ideas what I am doing wrong?
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Is the section available? It may need to be added to the BWS
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Jacob Cerone said:
Is the section available? It may need to be added to the BWS
Yes, it is there, but no word I select shows up. I have tried about every lemma in Hebrews 1:1, and they all return "no result".
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This would be nice if this worked for my collection of Greek Lexicons.
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JH said:
Yes, it is there, but no word I select shows up. I have tried about every lemma in Hebrews 1:1, and they all return "no result".
JH, I cannot replicate your problem. I am providing a few screenshots in hopes it may help you diagnose you problem. As you can see I get results on Heb 1.1 in BWS on the lemma πολυμερῶς. I also show the commentaries that I have hits to. You need to have commentaries that have hits to the original greek word. Can you confirm you have some of the commentaries listed in the screenshot below? If so, it may be an indexing issue. I suggest you wait for a reply from FL before reindexing.
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John Fidel said:JH said:
Yes, it is there, but no word I select shows up. I have tried about every lemma in Hebrews 1:1, and they all return "no result".
JH, I cannot replicate your problem. I am providing a few screenshots in hopes it may help you diagnose you problem.
The only other thing I can think of offhand is to ask if you have BWS filtered down to a particular passage range? Where John's screen capture has "All Passages", does yours have that as well? Or is it filtered down to a particular passage range?
Also: In addition to Logos Now, which Logos 6 package do you have? Or which commentaries do you own that you expect to show there?
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
This feature works really great in the Exegetical guide. In BWS, it pulls what all your commentaries say about a lemma regardless of what text it is found in, which can be a bit much. However in Exegetical guide it pulls information about a lemma from commentaries that speak about your specific passage. This really narrows the study to what a word means in a particular context.
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
The only other thing I can think of offhand is to ask if you have BWS filtered down to a particular passage range? Where John's screen capture has "All Passages", does yours have that as well? Or is it filtered down to a particular passage range?
Also: In addition to Logos Now, which Logos 6 package do you have? Or which commentaries do you own that you expect to show there?
I restarted Logos several times last night and no luck. This morning, after a fresh reboot, it is now working. Strange, but glad to have it working now. (BTW, it is a very nice feature to have...)
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I spoke too soon. I am currently reading through NA27 (Interlinear w/ GRAMCORD). When I right click on a Greek word and select the lemma from the drop down, then select BWS, it never returns results for Lemma in Passage. If I repeat this process from the ESV, it works correctly.JH said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:The only other thing I can think of offhand is to ask if you have BWS filtered down to a particular passage range? Where John's screen capture has "All Passages", does yours have that as well? Or is it filtered down to a particular passage range?
Also: In addition to Logos Now, which Logos 6 package do you have? Or which commentaries do you own that you expect to show there?
I restarted Logos several times last night and no luck. This morning, after a fresh reboot, it is now working. Strange, but glad to have it working now. (BTW, it is a very nice feature to have...)
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JH said:
I am currently reading through NA27 (Interlinear w/ GRAMCORD). When I right click on a Greek word and select the lemma from the drop down, then select BWS, it never returns results for Lemma in Passage. If I repeat this process from the ESV, it works correctly.
Maybe only Logos Morphology works, and GRAMCORD etc. alternatives don't
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:JH said:
I am currently reading through NA27 (Interlinear w/ GRAMCORD). When I right click on a Greek word and select the lemma from the drop down, then select BWS, it never returns results for Lemma in Passage. If I repeat this process from the ESV, it works correctly.
Maybe only Logos Morphology works, and GRAMCORD etc. alternatives don't
This is the case at present. No word (yet) on ability to support lemmas from other morphologies.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:NB.Mick said:JH said:
I am currently reading through NA27 (Interlinear w/ GRAMCORD). When I right click on a Greek word and select the lemma from the drop down, then select BWS, it never returns results for Lemma in Passage. If I repeat this process from the ESV, it works correctly.
Maybe only Logos Morphology works, and GRAMCORD etc. alternatives don't
This is the case at present. No word (yet) on ability to support lemmas from other morphologies.
I don't quite understand the issue. The lemma is the same whether I type it in manually, choose it from the underlying text of the ESV, or populate it from the NA27. Isn't BWS running from the lemma that is displayed in the input box at the upper left of the tool? Why does the NA27 (without the interlinear) work with BWS, but not with the interlinear. What am I missing?
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JH said:
Isn't BWS running from the lemma that is displayed in the input box at the upper left of the tool?
Actually, under the hood each lemma is tied to a morphological analysis because different analyses treat lemmatization differently. This is much more of a problem in Hebrew than in Greek.
We do support some conversion between analyses; I've filed an issue with development to see if we can leverage that sort of conversion with this guide section as well.
At present, what this means is that when the "Logos Greek Morphology" and "Logos Hebrew Morphology" flavor of lemmas are used, then Lemma in Passage functions as expected. Reverse interlinears use these morphologies, as do the Lexham Hebrew Bible, the Lexham Hebrew Interlinear, the SBLGNT (and interlinear), and the "Logos" flavors of NA27, UBS4, Westcott-Hort, Scrivener, Rahlfs LXX and Swete's LXX (plus some others, I'm sure, but I don't have the whole list available).
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
the "Logos" flavors of NA27, UBS4, Westcott-Hort, Scrivener, Rahlfs LXX and Swete's LXX (plus some others, I'm sure, but I don't have the whole list available)
going by a Reading List I happen to be familiar with, there's some three Rahlf's LXX versions with Logos morphology (the Logos LXX with Hebrew RI, the SESB LXX and the Lexham LXX Interlinear), two from Swete (LXX Swete with Hebrew RI, Lexham LXX Interlinear Swete), quite a number of TR editions in addition to Scrivener, Tischendorf's Novum Testamentum Graece and, more recently, of course two NA28 and one UBS5 edition. Just saying.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Rick,
I've noticed several volumes seem to be missing from the "Lemma in Passage" tool, despite having many references to the Greek text. I've obviously not checked every passage in every commentary, but sampling suggests the following are missing.
- Most of the Anchor Yale Bible series (all the NT?)
- The whole NICNT series
- The whole of Paideia series
- Most of the Pillar series
- On Matthew:
- Raymond Brown's Birth of the Messiah.
- Matthew: A Mentor Commentary
- On Acts
- Keener's Exegetical Commentary
- On John
- Wahlde's commentary
All of the above discuss the Greek text, often in detail, so should be included if the algorithm/lookup service is working correctly.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Hi Mark.
Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.
Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.
On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.
Ah, OK. I hadn't realised transliteration was excluded for the time being. It would be good if that could be added, although I certainly understand the problems that different transliteration schemes pose.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Another side effect of the generic transliteration rather than identification of the language ...?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Another side effect of the generic transliteration rather than identification of the language ...?
No. It's a side effect of the multiplicity of transliteration schemes that are/have been in use, and the ambiguity of many of the simpler transliteration schemes, where a single English character could represent one of many Hebrew characters.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:MJ. Smith said:
Another side effect of the generic transliteration rather than identification of the language ...?
No. It's a side effect of the multiplicity of transliteration schemes that are/have been in use, and the ambiguity of many of the simpler transliteration schemes, where a single English character could represent one of many Hebrew characters.
Yes, what Mark said. Especially on the Hebrew side of things.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Yes, what Mark said. Especially on the Hebrew side of things.
Rick,
my impression from the above was that Logos automatically detects the lemmas/lemmata from their language identifier.
Maybe I'm just too stupid for this, but how would your algorithm know from a word in say a NICNT commentary tagged as language 'Translit' wether it was a transliteration for Greek or Hebrew? Or is it a simple lookup in a table pointing to in your own lemma database? Then you could easily link agape to the lemma αγαπη, but there's nothing that precludes you from linking both chesed and hesed (and even checed [Vine's]) to חֶסֶד
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
Maybe I'm just too stupid for this, but how would your algorithm know from a word in say a NICNT commentary tagged as language 'Translit' wether it was a transliteration for Greek or Hebrew? Or is it a simple lookup in a table pointing to in your own lemma database? Then you could easily link agape to the lemma αγαπη, but there's nothing that precludes you from linking both chesed and hesed (and even checed [Vine's]) to חֶסֶד
At the moment, Rick's algorithm doesn't attempt to decode transliteration, so your question is hypothetical.
The answer would depend on which direction this works in. Does the algorithm look for words/lemmas in the original text, then search for those words/lemmas in the commentaries? Or does the algorithm attempt to analyse Greek/Hebrew words in the commentaries, and then find those in the original text? You're assuming the latter (which I think would require fewer iterations and therefore be quicker), but the former might be both simpler and more accurate, particularly for transliteration.
If you were using the latter method, you'd have to use fuzzy logic. In other words, you'd use a series of clues as to whether the transliteration referred to Greek, Hebrew, or something else, and compute a probability, rather than necessarily a certainty. Those clues would probably include:
- The milestone in which they appear (NT/OT or something else).
- The characters used in the transliteration (many characters only appear in Hebrew transliteration, for example).
If you were using the former method, you'd probably have a series of transliteration rules programmed into the algorithm, then search for words/lemmas from the original text, using each transliteration rule in turn. After a few attempts, it would probably be fairly easy to determine which rules a particular resource was using (or flag it for manual review if it wasn't possible), which would then speed up the process for the remainder of the resource.
If your point is that all this would be easier if Logos' markup didn't use "translit" as a language, but used "translit-hebrew", and "translit-greek", then of course you are right. But as I've said elsewhere, I fear it's too late for that. (And that's not the main issue, as Rick notes above.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
If you were using the latter method, you'd have to use fuzzy logic. In other words, you'd use a series of clues as to whether the transliteration referred to Greek, Hebrew, or something else, and compute a probability, rather than necessarily a certainty. Those clues would probably include:
Which is why I suggested that part of the problems was tagging as "transliteration" rather than with the actual language. The problem of transliteration scheme is more language specific and often with a date or original language of resource dependent. So carving away at the problem on a piece by piece method is likely practical either within the resource processing or as additional resource metadata.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
I've noticed several volumes seem to be missing from the "Lemma in Passage" tool, despite having many references to the Greek text.
This should be fixed in 6.9 Beta 4.
Fixed bug that caused conversion between morphological analysis to not be supported in Lemma in Passage.
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Congratulations on your baby.0
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.
Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.
On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.
I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text. (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)
Perhaps one of our programming-savvy folks has come up with some streamlined combination of an OL Bible Word Study Guide plus some other Logos feature, that is the functional equivalent of a "Lemma in Passage" section for these commentaries?
Here are the crazy work-arounds I can imagine, and both are cumbersome:
Crazy and Cumbersome Method A:
First step: I go back to my Bible, R-click on my Hebrew or Greek lemma, "Search -> this resource," and turn the Search results into a Passage List.
[Somewhere under the hood of the Bible Word Study Guide, there must be the equivalent of such a Passage List, that generates that great little graphic, showing where each occurrence appears by Bible book. But I don't see a way to get to that list from within the Guide. Am I overlooking something?]
Next step: if
(1) I have tagged all my scholarly commentaries that don't use the Hebrew or Greek script, and
(2) I have created a streamlined, one-section Passage Guide, with only a single "Commentaries" section (for a Collection of those transliteration-only commentaries),
then I create that PG by R-clicking on the first reference in the Passage List.
Next step: from my one-section PG, I click through to each commentary, and scan through it hoping to find my word.
And then . . . do the same for each reference in my Passage List--R-click to create PG, click through on each commentary, and scan for my word.
But whoa!, that's a lot of windows! And a whole lot of clicking. I'm definitely going to get lost and sidetracked very easily.
Crazy and Cumbersome Method B:
Is there a way to turn the Passage List into a single search string of Bible references?
If so, then this method B isn't quite so cumbersome.
If not, then I have to start by typing that string of references as the query for a Basic Search of my Collection of transliteration-only scholarly commentaries.
Then I sort the Search Results by resource, eyeball each one to find all the sections of each commentary that might conceivably talk about my OL word, and then click and scan for my word. At least this way, I'm working from a single pane of results, and a single pane for each commentary, so I have a fighting chance of keeping track of where I am and what I'm doing.
Any other suggestions?
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If this is a "data set" does that mean we can do searches with it? If so....how?
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Mary-Ellen said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.
Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.
On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.
I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text. (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)
Hi Mary-Ellen.
We're actually working on supporting transliterations in the lemma-in-passage data right now. Hopefully soon that data will be available through lemma-in-passage, and your cumbersome workarounds won't be necessary.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Mike Tourangeau said:
If this is a "data set" does that mean we can do searches with it? If so....how?
Mike, the lemma in passage data lives on a server. It is vast and large and best managed that way. We update it with every resource release cycle. While this data can be seen in a right-click on an original language string in a commentary passage (right-click, lemma), it is not indexed at that point of the commentary (it isn't on your local machine so isn't indexed in your local index). The lemma-in-passage passage guide section retrieves the data relevant to the commentaries you own for the current milestone range and displays it in the guide section.
Not saying it'll never happen, but the problem is larger than it seems. I can file a suggestion. I'd also recommend that you or other users create an a suggestion via User Voice for this functionality and assign some votes to it.
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
Thank you for the update, Mr. Data Wrangler! [8-|]
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Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:Mary-Ellen said:Rick Brannan (Faithlife) said:
Several of the volumes you mention above discuss Greek, but do it in transliteration, not Greek characters. The whole of NICNT uses transliteration; surprisingly (to me) so does much of the Anchor Yale series.
Transliteration is a tough nut to crack (especially Hebrew). Not saying it'll never happen, but it didn't make the first cut of the tool.
On which volumes get included, basically, everything classed as a commentary that has a string in Greek or Hebrew within a Bible milestone is intended. Not saying we haven't possibly missed volumes, but that's the goal.
I'm not coming up with any good ideas for a useful work-around to take me from my Bible Word Study Guide for an OL word into a scholarly commentary that uses only transliterated text. (And as Rick B suggests, I'm surprised at how many are the ones that I really want to start with, when I'm ready to turn to commentaries.)
Hi Mary-Ellen.
We're actually working on supporting transliterations in the lemma-in-passage data right now. Hopefully soon that data will be available through lemma-in-passage, and your cumbersome workarounds won't be necessary.
Hello again, Mary-Ellen.
The work to lemmatize transliterated strings has been incorporated in the dataset, and the new data is live and available. For more details, see this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912596.aspx#912596
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
I posted this question in the General forum and then came across this thread so I thought I'd post it here as well in case some who are familiar with the topic are following it:
When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message. When I view the Bible Word Study, it works fine. It doesn't matter if it's a passage from the Old or New Testament. Any thoughts as to what's wrong or if I'm doing something wrong? Also, what is the difference between "Lemmas in Passage" and "Other Lemmas" in the Bible Word Study? It seems to be showing results for the same lemma under both (see second screen shot showing WBC from Isaiah).
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Matthew said:
When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message. When I view the Bible Word Study, it works fine. It doesn't matter if it's a passage from the Old or New Testament. Any thoughts as to what's wrong or if I'm doing something wrong? Also, what is the difference between "Lemmas in Passage" and "Other Lemmas" in the Bible Word Study? It seems to be showing results for the same lemma under both (see second screen shot showing WBC from Isaiah).
I have this same problem. Did anyone ever figure out a fix for it?
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Matthew said:
When I view the Exegetical Guide or Passage Guide and scroll down to Lemma In Passage, I get no results and a "Failed to load" message.
What are your top three prioritised Bibles?
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NET
NA27 w/Gramcord
ESV
Lemma in Passage DOES work through Bible Word Study, but not through Exegetical or Passage Guide.
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So, based on your question, I changed my preferred Bibles to ESV, NASB and NIV84, and then Lemma in Passage works for me!
Is there a list somewhere of which preferred Bibles it is limited to?
There is a problem however. I thought Lemma in Passage would find the lemma in any of my resources. However, I noticed right away that it only pulls info from commentaries. No journals were included. (I used "logos" as a test word.) Does it only pull from commentaries?
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Rob Bailey said:
So, based on your question, I changed my preferred Bibles to ESV, NASB and NIV84, and then Lemma in Passage works for me!
Is there a list somewhere of which preferred Bibles it is limited to?
This is a bug in the service. We have an existing case for it, and I've added a link to this thread to the case.
Rob Bailey said:Does it only pull from commentaries?
It pulls from the resources that have been tagged in the database. I think (but don't know for sure) that this is primarily commentaries so far. The list of tagged resources grows regularly; e.g., https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912317.aspx#912317
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This is a slightly different problem, but since you mentioned "tagging" I'll ask it here:
- When I use the Passage Guide my journals do not show all of my relevant resources. E.g., I Input 1 Timothy 2:12, and looked at what I had under "Journals." I clicked on "Search All Journals" at the bottom which opened a new window.
- None of my Trinity Journals showed up, even though I know that there are at least two journals containing three articles that include "1 Timothy 2:11-15" in the title.
- JETS does not show any articles either, even though I know they are there.
- Articles in Trinity and JETS do show up if I search for 1 Tim 2:12 across all fields. They DO NOT show up if searching "largetext" or "headingtext" even though the references are found there.
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Rob Bailey said:
Does it only pull from commentaries?
It pulls from the resources that have been tagged in the database. I think (but don't know for sure) that this is primarily commentaries so far. The list of tagged resources grows regularly; e.g., https://community.logos.com/forums/p/146790/912317.aspx#912317
The data is from commentaries and study Bibles. The data behind the service is updated every two weeks to account for newly released commentaries (and study Bibles).
Rick Brannan
Data Wrangler, Faithlife
My books in print0 -
This is a bug in the service. We have an existing case for it, and I've added a link to this thread to the case.
The web service should now be fixed, and correctly return results when NET (or any other Bible) is your preferred Bible.
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