A question about a Enhanced Strong's Lexicon tidbit... "vr disciple"
Hello,
I am making the transition from e-Sword to Logos and cannot find (or do not know everywhere to look) what "vr disciple" means in the quote below.
3101 μαθητής [mathetes /math·ay·tes/] n m. From 3129; TDNT 4:415; TDNTA 552; GK 3412; 269 occurrences; AV translates as “disciple” 268 times, and “vr disciple” once. 1 a learner, pupil, disciple.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.
I did notice in the Bible search analysis that one entry is marked in "Tense/Voice/Mood" as TVM5656 (if that helps).
Thank you for any information on this.
Additionally, when I click on TVM5656 I get a panel that tells me no resources in my library contain this reference and 'You don't have a license to view this resource'. When I click on the Visit Logos.com link I get a page describing a resource ( https://www.logos.com/resources/LLS_46.30.5/tense-voice-mood ) but there is no button to buy it. I cannot find this feature or resource on the comparison page https://www.logos.com/compare either.
I have Logos 6 Bronze updated from Logos 4 along with a Feature Crossgrade.
As I am still finding my way around, I am unsure whether I am missing something (in the way of resources) or if I am missing something (in the way of 'how to') or if something is not registered properly in my software. I was also surprised that a Topic Guide panel on "disciple" had nothing in the Biblical Places section.
Any comments will be appreciated.
Thanks
Dean
Comments
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Dean Stow said:
I am making the transition from e-Sword to Logos and cannot find (or do not know everywhere to look) what "vr disciple" means in the quote below.
I really don't know LOGOS very well, but to hazard a guess (by looking else where) the "vr" is most likely could be a typo, and should have been 'rv', which would stand for Revised Version, just as 'AV' stands for Authorize Version.
Edit: OR... it could be saying that the one use of Disciple was as a Verb.???
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The "vr" is within the quotation marks so I am assuming either original AV with archaic spelling or a typo ... search the AV I get a slightly higher count than strong - I searched for <GreekStrongs = G3101> and got 272 hits - none of which are a singleton ... so I've conformed for myself there is a reason I don't like using Strong's [*-)]
The Bible Word Study shows only 1 translation (disciple(s)) in the KJV 1900
However, if I ignore Strong's entirely and go with the Logos BSL I can find that it is used as a verb once:
Since that is the only single occurrence, I suspect that the vr should be outside the quotation marks
vr appears inside the quotes 47 times so it must means something in Strong's-ese which I do not speak ..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dean Stow said:
I am making the transition from e-Sword to Logos and cannot find (or do not know everywhere to look) what "vr disciple" means in the quote below.
3101 μαθητής [mathetes /math·ay·tes/] n m. From 3129; TDNT 4:415; TDNTA 552; GK 3412; 269 occurrences; AV translates as “disciple” 268 times, and “vr disciple” once. 1 a learner, pupil, disciple.
The verb "3100 μαθητεύω [matheteuo /math·ayt·yoo·o/] v. From 3101" is translated as the noun "disciple" once (in Matthew 27:57). Bible Word Study of disciple was helpful to find the one verb translation.
Lemma:μαθητής was translated as disciple(s) 269 times in the Authorized Version so appears Enhanced Strong's Lexicon number of 268 is off by one. Also did not see a noun used as a verb in translation (search with results aligned).
Logos right click menu has option to search for root; found the root:μανθανω for disciple had a verb in the aorist tense in Matthew 27:57 that matched Tense Voice Mood 5656.
Personally tend to use original language lemmas in Logos instead of Strong's Numbers with one caveat. A number of discussion lexicons have strong's numbers so have prioritized lexicons without Strong's numbers before ones with Strong's numbers so right click has one set of lexicons for lemma and a different set for Strong's numbers.
Thread => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/35136/264941.aspx#264941 has example of lexicon prioritization.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Wow!
Thank you Roy, MJ, and Keep Smiling for the great responses.
Thank you especially for the screenshots! I have already started trying to duplicate MJ's (with some success) and was about to reply when I saw Keep Smiling's response with more to digest!
Keep Smiling, do you know what package is required to display the "Tense, Voice, Mood" you have in the upper right corner of your first image?Thank you all again for your help.
Dean
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Dean Stow said:
Keep Smiling, do you know what package is required to display the "Tense, Voice, Mood" you have in the upper right corner of your first image?
The 2001 resource is no longer available for purchase.
Currently know eight resources have Tense Voice Mood tagging for Greek verbs:
Found 31 Bibles have tagging with Strong's Greek Numbers while 41 Bibles have Logos Greek Morphology lemma tagging. Searching for lemma without specifying morphology found 68 Bibles. By the way, noticed Matthew 14:19 has an implied verb with disciples.
Tense Voice Mood (TVM) only has partial parsing information. In contrast, morphological tagging has complete parsing information.
Thankful for Visual Filter Highlighting, which can combine hundreds of search results for simultaneous display, including TVM plus more:
Matthew 6:9-13 has seven verbs in the imperative mood.
Logos wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters
Visual Filter Highlighting of Logos Greek Morphology needs resources with appropriate tagging. Many Logos 6 and Verbum base packages include Bibles with reverse interlinear tagging.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I'm going out on a limb after checking http://www.abbreviations.com/ and guessing that vr stands for very rare ... which should be outside the quotes but ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Dean Stow said:
I am making the transition from e-Sword to Logos and cannot find (or do not know everywhere to look) what "vr disciple" means in the quote below.
3101 μαθητής [mathetes /math·ay·tes/] n m. From 3129; TDNT 4:415; TDNTA 552; GK 3412; 269 occurrences; AV translates as “disciple” 268 times, and “vr disciple” once. 1 a learner, pupil, disciple.
Strong, J. (1995). Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.
I have two conjectures for what vr signifies, variant rendering or variant reading.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
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The most helpful part here may be the disclaimer:
"ABBREVIATIONS EMPLOYED (THIS LIST CONTAINS MISTAKES AND DOES NOT APPLY UNIVERSALLY)"
http://www.biblelinguistics.org/pages/strongsabbreviations.html
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm going out on a limb after checking http://www.abbreviations.com/ and guessing that vr stands for very rare ... which should be outside the quotes but ...
What I find most odd is that the resource itself doesn't seem to have a list of abbreviations used in some sort of appendix.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Yes, I looked for an appendix or preface that might list those.
This is my first foray into a 'real life' word study and with the help of all of you, I am accomplishing one of my goals --- learning how to use the software.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your example screenshots and explanations. I will be trying to follow those examples and absorb what the information is telling me.
My process in using the Strong's (using free tools) has been
- start with an english word I am interested in
- search for an english word in the bible
- enumerate the Strong's IDs
- search for each Strong's ID (using LXX if Greek and want to see OT)
- enumerate the words associated with the Strong's ID
- repeat steps 2 through 5 for each word recursively until the list is exhausted or the meaning has strayed to the point it can be omitted from that study.
At that point, I have a list of verses that apply (hopefully exhaustively) to the study I am undertaking and can (hopefully) see how the word is used in the bible.
The Logos tool will certainly mitigate the effort in this process and may well eliminate all but the most cursory low-impact effort. This is wonderful.
However, part of my journey will be building the confidence in my understanding of what I am seeing. Thank you all for your help in that journey.
I am seeing that the word search tools save me from much of the iterative process in building the list of words that I feel I should consider for whatever study is at hand.
I am ecstatic about the possibilities. I have learned a lot already, both from this discussion and a recent one about the differences between root, lemma, and manuscript.
I have also learned that while I knew I was ignorant about Greek and Hebrew but I am finding out that my ignorance also extends to 'how ignorant I thought I was'. [:$]
Again, thank you all for your time and effort in sharing your knowledge and skills.
Sincerely
Dean
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Dean, one thing I forgot to say was "welcome to the forums". I hope you return often and consider it a great way to enhance your investment in Logos.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Thank you!
The wonderful truth is that everyone's responses have made me know that I am welcome!
Dean
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Dean Stow said:
The wonderful truth is that everyone's responses have made me know that I am welcome!
It truly is a great community. [Y]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Dean Stow said:
3101 μαθητής [mathetes /math·ay·tes/] n m. From 3129; TDNT 4:415; TDNTA 552; GK 3412; 269 occurrences; AV translates as “disciple” 268 times, and “vr disciple” once. 1 a learner, pupil, disciple.
I suspect that "vr disciple" indicates that it is a translation of a variant reading.
I would suggest that you select a better resource than Strong's as your lexicon. You REALLY should use BDAG. Strong's lists only glosses used by the translators of the AV (AKA: KJV). Why do a translation to match the AV when all you need to do is to read it?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Looking at the output above, the verb form also appears once, so it could potentially stand for "verb regular", especially appearing as distinct from the noun before it. Not saying it does....
Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5
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George Somsel said:
I would suggest that you select a better resource than Strong's as your lexicon.
Yes. I keep getting that advice. I don't disagree with it, necessarily, but it is the tool I am used to. Some familiarity is helpful when bombarded with so much new information. Part of what I am doing right now is working with both Logos and my prior tools in order to have a better understanding of what I am seeing in Logos.
Some of the new information is what I want, but I still have to learn to assimilate it. It is very possible that once I start to feel comfortable in Logos Word Search that I will not care about Strong's anymore.
Historically, I was using Strong's more to create an 'idea word search' rather than a 'text word search'. I think Logos will do that for me. I just need to start to feel comfortable enough with it that I don't have to spend 5 minutes (or 10) remembering how to get to the screen I saw. 'Disciple' is literally the first word search I have done in Logos where I am actually trying to use the information in a useful manner.
George Somsel said:
You REALLY should use BDAG.
I have added it to my wish list (BDAG/HALOT bundle). But it will have to wait. I just did a 2 version upgrade followed by a crossgrade. While I am pleased with the value I have for what I have spent, I am going to resist spending more right now.
George Somsel said:Why do a translation to match the AV when all you need to do is to read it?
I am not sure if that is rhetorical or a real question, but here is why. I wanted to be able to get a list of every verse in which a particular word (or variant of that word) was used. I had a process (listed above) to do that. I realize that Logos will do that for me in a much more intuitive manner, but my evaluation of what I am getting from Logos involves finding the differences between what it gives and what I am used to.
No doubt, BDAG, HALOT, Mounce, and others are resources I will want to use in the future. I am still wrapping my brain around what I am being given thus far.
Some of the information is the same information (maybe on steroids) presented in a different manner. Some of the information is truly information that I had to dig for in the past. Some of it is information I have never had access to before or even dreamed that I might need. I am still figuring out what will be useful to me and what may not.
Going through the digging process will help me understand what some of that new information as well as build confidence that the results of one search are as complete as some of the searches I have done iteratively in the past.
It is going to be a lot of fun!
Dean
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In case you are interested, here is what BDAG says about that word.
μαθητής, οῦ, ὁ (s. μανθάνω; Hdt.+; ins; BGU 1125, 9 [I B.C.]; POxy 1029, 25. In LXX only in two places in Jer [13:21; 20:11], and then as v.l. of codex A; AscIs 3:17, 21; Philo, Joseph., apolog. exc. Ar.) gener. ‘learner, pupil, disciple’
① one who engages in learning through instruction from another, pupil, apprentice (in contrast to the teacher [Ath. 17, 3 μ. Δαιδάλου]; Did., Gen. 66, 25) Mt 10:24f; Lk 6:40 (TManson, The Teaching of Jesus, ’55, 237–40).
② one who is rather constantly associated with someone who has a pedagogical reputation or a particular set of views, disciple, adherent (Pla., Apol. 33a; X., Mem. 1, 6, 3; Dio Chrys. 11 [12], 5; Lucian, M. Peregr. 28 al.; Diog. L. 7, 7, 179; 8, 1, 3; 10, 11, 22; Iambl., Vi. Pyth. 35, 254 οἱ μ.; SIG 1094, 5f αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ; Jos., Ant. 9, 68; 13, 289), oft. w. an indication of the pers. whose disciple one is, mostly in the gen. (Jos., C. Ap. 1, 176 Ἀριστοτέλους μ., Ant. 9, 33; 15, 3; Just., A I, 26, 4 τοῦ Σίμωνος; Tat. 39, 3 Ὀρφέως; Iren. 1, prologue 2 [Harv. I 4, 7] Οὐαλεντίνου; Theosophien 66 Φορφυρίου μ.).
ⓐ μ. Ἰωάννου Mt 9:14a; 11:2; 14:12; Mk 2:18ab; 6:29; Lk 5:33; 7:18f; 11:1; J 1:35, 37; 3:25. τ. Μωϋσέως 9:28b τῶν Φαρισαίων Mt 22:16; Mk 2:18c τοῦ Πολυκάρπου MPol 22:2; EpilMosq 1.
ⓑ esp. of the disciples of Jesus (of Paul: Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 70)
α. of the Twelve οἱ δώδεκα μ. αὐτοῦ his twelve disciples Mt 10:1; 11:1; οἱ ἕνδεκα μ. 28:16. οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ (or w. another gen. of similar mng.; cp. Just., A I, 67, 7 τοῖς ἀποστόλοις αὐτοῦ καὶ μαθηταῖς; Just., D. 53, 1 al.; Did., Gen. 38, 21; Orig., C. Cels. 2, 2, 10.—Yet it is somet. doubtful whether a particular pass. really means the Twelve and not a larger [s. β below] or smaller circle; EMartinez, CBQ 23, ’61, 281–92 [restricted to the 12, even in Mt 18]) Mt 8:21; 12:1; 15:2; Mk 5:31; 6:1, 35, 45; 8:27; Lk 8:9; J 2:2; 3:22 and oft. Also without a gen. (but freq. vv.ll. + αὐτοῦ) οἱ μ. Mt 13:10; 14:19; 16:5; Mk 8:1; 9:14; 10:24; Lk 9:16; J 4:31; 11:7f and oft.—LBrun, D. Berufung der ersten Jünger Jesu: SymbOsl 11, ’32, 35–54; SvanTilborg, The Jewish Leaders in Mt, ’72, 99–141; ULuz, Die Jünger im Mt, ZNW 62, ’71, 141–47; on the ‘beloved disciple’ of J 13:23 al. s. FFilson, JBL 68, ’49, 83–88; ETitus, ibid. ’50, 323–28; FNeirynck, The Anonymous Disciple in John 1: ETL 66, ’90, 5–37.
β. of Jesus’ disciples, male and female, gener. ὄχλος πολὺς μ. αὐτοῦ a large crowd of his adherents Lk 6:17; ἅπαν τὸ πλῆθος τῶν μ. the whole crowd of the disciples 19:37. οἱ μ. αὐτοῦ ἱκανοί a large number of his disciples 7:11 v.l. πολλοὶ ἐκ (v.l. om.) τῶν μ. αὐτοῦ J 6:66.—Papias (2:4).
γ. Even after Jesus’ resurrection those who followed him were called μ. (generations later, as Socrates is called the μ. of Homer: Dio Chrys. 38 [55], 3ff) οἱ μ. τοῦ κυρίου Ac 9:1; μ. Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ IMg 9:2 (opp. ὁ μόνος διδάσκαλος, who also had the prophets as his μαθηταί vs. 3; 10:1). Ac uses μ. almost exclusively to denote the members of the new community of believers (Just., D. 35, 2; s. Rtzst., Erlösungsmyst. 127f), so that it almost=Christian (cp. 11:26) 6:1f, 7; 9:19; 11:26, 29; 13:52; 15:10 al. τῶν μαθητῶν (without τινές) some Christians 21:16 (cp. X., Cyr. 1, 4, 20, An. 3, 5, 16; Herodas 2, 36 τῶν πορνέων; Polyaenus 5, 17, 2 καὶ ἦσαν τῶν Μακεδόνων).—καλοὶ μαθηταί IPol 2:1. Individuals (Aberciusins. 3: Ἀ., ὁ μ. ποιμένος ἁγνοῦ): Ananias Ac 9:10; Mnason 21:16b; Timothy 16:1.
δ. The martyrs (s. on μάρτυς 3) are specif. called μ. κυρίου MPol 17:3. Also absol. μ. IEph 1:2; ITr 5:2; IRo 5:3; IPol 7:1. As long as a Christian’s blood has not been shed, the person is only a beginner in discipleship (IRo 5:3), not a μαθητὴς ἀληθῶς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ IRo 4:2.—For lit. s. on ἀπόστολος and s. also JWach, Meister and Jünger 1925; ESchweizer, Lordship and Discipleship, ’60, 464–66; GBornkamm, Bultmann Festschr., ’64, 171–91 (Mt 28:16–20)—B. 1225. DELG s.v. μανθάνω. M-M. TW. Sv.
William Arndt, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 609–610.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Welcome to Logos
P A
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abondservant said:
In case you are interested, here is what BDAG says about that word.
With Outline Formatting enabled:
Outline formatting in Logos 6 was announced on 24 Oct 2014 => New Feature: Outline Formatting--visual filter for select lexicons
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Dean Stow said:
3101 μαθητής [mathetes /math·ay·tes/] n m. From 3129; TDNT 4:415; TDNTA 552; GK 3412; 269 occurrences; AV translates as “disciple” 268 times, and “vr disciple” once. 1 a learner, pupil, disciple.
vr does indeed stand for "variant reading".
The variant in question is probably Luke 10:22 where the marginal note reads "Many ancient copies add these words, And turning to his disciples, he said."
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Thanks Abondservant, Keep Smiling, and Mark!
All I can say about the BDAG segment is 'what a mouthfull'.
And for vr meaning 'variant reading' - got it. [8-|]
Thanks to everyone for your warm responses and full featured replies. You couldn't have made me feel more welcome here.
This is going to be GREAT!
Dean
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