Computer Comparison (Your thoughts please...)
I'm looking at two different Dell laptop configurations. Which of these two processor/memory combos would be better for the average computer user running Logos 4? Both would have Win 7 64bit and an HD 4670 - 1GB video card.
1. Processor = Core 2 Duo P8800 2.66GHz 3MB Cache . . . Memory = 6GB DDR3 at 1067MHz
2. Processor = Core i7-720QM 1.6GHz (2.8GHz Turbo Mode) 6MB Cache . . . Memory = 4GB DDR3 at 1333MHz
My simple thinking is that #1 has a "slower" processor but more memory, while #2 has a "faster" processor but less memory. I guess I'm wondering which would make a more noticeable difference - having the "faster" processor or more memory?
Thanks for your thoughts...
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
Comments
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You're above the minimum threshold for memory on either, so, I'd go for speed. And since memory's cheap you can always upgrade later... That's the simple answer, for a more technical answer:
The Core i7 is a completely new architecture which is much faster and more efficient than the Core 2 Duo. Currently only the Core i7 920, 945 and 965 XE versions are available. Of that the Core i7 920 is available at just $284 which makes it a great buy. It offers better performance than almost all Core 2 Duo processors.
Native Quad Core, More Cache and Hyper Threading:All the Core i7 processors are Native Quad cores (4 cores), which means that they actually have 4 cores on a single die, while the older Core 2 Duo processors like the Q6600 (2×2 = 4 cores) had two cores on a single die, and two such dies merged together. This increases the processing speed greatly. They also have 256 KB L2 cache per core and a shared 8 MB L3 cache which has proven to be much better than any cache configuration in Core 2 Duo.
It also has HyperThreading support which means that each of the 4 cores can process 2 threads simultaneously, so you get 8 virtual cores. This helps in running many applications parallely and also in gaming.
Quick Path Interconnect (QPI) and On Die Memory Controller:
The Core i7 processors sport the new Quick Path Interconnect technology which replaces the FSB (Front Side Bus) to connect the various components in a computer. QPI is much faster than FSB and hence improves the overall performance. It is even faster than AMD’s similar HyperTransport 3.0 standard.
The Core i7 have an On Die Memory Controller which means that it can access memory much faster than the Core 2 Duo processors which had an external memory controller. Intel has borrowed this feature from AMD. All the four cores, memory controller, cache are on the same die which improves the speed and performance greatly.
Source: http://www.pathikshah.com/blog/intel-core-i7-vs-intel-core-2-duo-the-difference/
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I would go for #2. Its 4GB of RAM is faster than the 6 GB of ram on #1 so its memory will probably be more efficient with less. Be certain you are getting a 7200 RPM Hard drive, a 5400 RPM drive can bog Logos down.
Prov. 15:23
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And I hate to be a wet blanket but if you look at the threads...it seems that it's not merely a matter of power...
There are machines here that dwarf HAL..but yet they don't run Logos at lightening speed...
It's weird...it seems that the video memory makes more difference than anything else...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
It's weird...it seems that the video memory makes more difference than anything else...
I've got a bit of an Apple to Pineapple comparison on that. I just upgraded from an Nvidia based 7300 GS with 256MB Ram to an Nvidia 9600 GT with 1GB Ram. The difference is phenomenal in terms of L4's reaction time for certain items. For instance....
Setting the autoscroll (center click and drop the mouse) on the old card caused jerky movements that made me lose my place when just reading. Now I can set autoscroll and smoothly read pages and pages without a hiccup.
True the GPU is faster but the RAM is also 4x larger. I'm not really certain which one made a difference but there you are. Mind you, nothing else on my system has changed.
Gateway GT 5058 Desktop | Overal WEI (Windows Experience Index): 4.9
Windows 7 Professional 64bit - all patches.
Kaspersky Internet Security 2010 - up to date
Processor AMD Athlon(tm) 64 X2 Dual Core Processor 3800+ (WEI 4.9)
Memory (RAM) 4.00 GB (WEI 4.9)
Graphics NVIDIA GeForce 9600 GT (WEI 6.4)
Gaming graphics 2303 MB Total available graphics memory (WEI 6.4)
Dual 22" widescreen monitors at 1680x1050 - using DVI duallink cables
Primary hard disk 343GB Free (466GB Total) (WEI 5.9)
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Michael Waugh said:
I'm looking at two different Dell laptop configurations. Which of these two processor/memory combos would be better for the average computer user running Logos 4? Both would have Win 7 64bit and an HD 4670 - 1GB video card.
1. Processor = Core 2 Duo P8800 2.66GHz 3MB Cache . . . Memory = 6GB DDR3 at 1067MHz
2. Processor = Core i7-720QM 1.6GHz (2.8GHz Turbo Mode) 6MB Cache . . . Memory = 4GB DDR3 at 1333MHz
My simple thinking is that #1 has a "slower" processor but more memory, while #2 has a "faster" processor but less memory. I guess I'm wondering which would make a more noticeable difference - having the "faster" processor or more memory?
Thanks for your thoughts...
So Michael - you need to check on video - best to have a separate video card over using on-board video.
www.emmanuelecc.org
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Also, be careful of getting an i7 in a laptop. I was considering it and the more I read, the more people had issues with overheating / insufficent cooling in the box. It seems like the i5, at this point, is the better laptop processor (in terms of heat and power consumption).
That said, are you building new or looking at the Dell Outlet? I hadn't ever used the outlet before, but did so with the computer I currently have and end up getting it for about 45% less than a comparably equipped "custom built" machine. Even has the same warranty as the new ones!
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TimothyShrimpton said:
i7 in a laptop. ... issues with overheating / insufficent cooling in the box.
Whatever laptop/chip set you get, one consideration is always heat. Personally, a laptop that will perform to meet my expectaions will always be hot enough to use a chiller pad under it... I like the ones with a USB connected/powered fan to suck hot air out from under the latop & blow it out away from you... Targus has one that'll work under an up-to-15" laptop that can be had regularly on sale for about $20... With a chiller pad under it, I wouldn't hesitate to get the performance you need, expecially if it'll be a desktop replacement.
The other thing I do to reduce heat is to use my laptop in a "docking station" (port replicator, or equivalent) that allows me to attach a large monitor, full size keyboard, & nice speakers... Using the laptop this way (closed, when attached) doesn't need the heat to light the LCD display & usually runs cool enough that I don't need the chiller pad.
So don't rule out the i7 just for heat reasons. IMO, reducing heat will help your laptop last longer no matter what chip you get in it...
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
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Jonathan West said:
So Michael - you need to check on video - best to have a separate video card over using on-board video.
My understanding was that the HD 4670 - 1GB video card was "dedicated" as opposed to "integrated" - though I'm not sure if this is what you mean by having a separate video card.
The configs above are from a Dell Studio XPS 16 - both running Win 7 64 bit and both include a 7400 RPM hard disk.
On another note... I checked Dell's outlet and found limited items in funky colors (I don't really want a Merlot Red laptop [6] ).
Thanks for the responses.
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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It is dedicated and is very good. Just ordered the i7 myself. Overheating is only a problem if you game. Other people saying it runs cool. The i7 wipes the floor of the core2duo.
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That processor speed is better...2.8 verses 2.6. and that cache memory of 3 vs 6 is a big deal. As others have said....the I7 chip just cleans house with respect to the 2 cores machine. I am thinking about a new system as well. From my perspective, a faster 512 MB video card is better than a slower 1GB video card. That cache memory really plays a difference and if your able to send data up the line faster the better the 512 will work. It seems like short of a true Game play machine, 512 MB is just fine. Same goes with speed of motherboard. Even the HDD is mentioned. 7200 is so much better than the 5400. I am sure those people with a Solid state HDD just love start up compared to a 7200 drive. Cache again is so much higher SSD not 7200.
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I also know this to be true. I would go with the most powerful i7 processor I could afford, if I were in the market for a new laptop.Daniel Arnott said:The i7 wipes the floor of the core2duo.
And "dedicated" video usually means it's a separate card (that can be changed, by the way, especially on some Dell models) that plugs into the laptops motherboard and has it's own dedicated memory apart from the system Ram vs. the "integrated" video which means it's integrated into the motherboard and uses the system Ram for the video functions.
Whether it's the "removable" type or not, the dedicated video will have better performance.
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No you're right - I missed you'd said about the video card!
www.emmanuelecc.org
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William Bingham said:
.the I7 chip just cleans house with respect to the 2 cores machine.
Just so everyone is aware...there are people on the forum with GIGANTIC systems, I7 chips....HUGE amounts of ram, HUGE video cards etc...
And their performance is no better than say...mine.
I know it doesn't make sense.....but it's true.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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yes but think how well Word will run!!!
Don't want to get into a silly thing over dedicated cards, but it does not mean they have to be removable. As long as they don't use system ram they are considered dedicated
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Correct. But some laptops (some Dells for example) actually have a removable video card.Daniel Arnott said:it does not mean they have to be removable. As long as they don't use system ram they are considered dedicated
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Robert,
You have a core2 duo machine that is running as fast as an I7 machine?
I admit it could work if....your on a serious fast bus system as opposed to the 17. If your video is a faster chipset than say a "bigger" video then ok....
There is no way that 2 cores beats 4 cores doing the same thing given the I7 is not being hindered by something else.
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BillS said:TimothyShrimpton said:
i7 in a laptop. ... issues with overheating / insufficent cooling in the box.
Whatever laptop/chip set you get, one consideration is always heat.
I've been using PC Wizard 2010 to monitor the temperature and load of all my CPU's cores. It's a great little (free) utility that does a ton! When it's minimized, it puts up this (transparent) display always on top (I can set the color to whatever and drag it wherever; the gray background is just what's showing through from the forum background color):
It was recommended on another thread about performance a couple of weeks ago by JRS who showed another screenshot from it.
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William Bingham said:
There is no way that 2 cores beats 4 cores doing the same thing given the I7 is not being hindered by something else.
William, yes..that's what I'm talking about...a machine that SHOULD be much faster....frequently is not due to the Logos 4 voodoo that I still don't understand.
It's not that the machine is not faster that the core duo, but that Logos is not faster...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Thank-you everybody for your thoughts (and even your opinions [:D] ). As I type, my new Dell Studio XPS 16 is "in production." Here's what I ended up with...
Intel Core i7 720QM 1.6GHz (2.8GHz Turbo Mode, 6MB Cache)
4GB, DDR3, 1333MHz
15.6 inch Wide Screen 16:9 1080p Full HD WLED LCD
ATI Mobility RADEON HD 4670 1GB
500GB 7200 RPM SATA (Free Fall Sensor) Hard Drive
Windows 7 Home Premium, 64bit
To help with cost, I went with the combo of the Core i7 and only 4MB of ram for now. I'll probably buy myself some more ram for Christmas?
Also, the 7200 RPM hard drive is supposedly going to delay shipment--as of now, it's scheduled for April 2--though I half expect this to change. If not, maybe I'll forget about it and then it'll be a nice surprise? Or... nah, don't want to go there. [:(]
Anyway, thanks again for your technical jibber-jabber. You were a great help.
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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Congrats--That will be a very nice laptop -- let me know if you need someone to shake it down for you [:D] On a different thread someone showed a new Lenovo i7 Tablet that has me drooling; however, it would probably require a 30-year adjustable rate mortgage to buy one. [:S]
By Christmas, you may also want to consider swapping your drive out with an SSD model...currently, their prices are horrible but I expect that will change as capacities get to a point where mass production is warranted.
I've got a desktop i7 Dell (beefiest sanely priced machine available when i7's first released), and am very happy with it & thrilled that Logos 4 actually plays well across the processor cores. I've got a large logos library & it really chews through rebuilding the indexes. I also often use about every tool simultaneously and inter-linked across many resources/windows--even with all this, I can scroll and let all the other windows autoupdate with very minimal delay [however, I don't recommend doing it a lot--L4 does tend to crash if you don't let heavily linked windows "stabilize" for a second or two before jumping around in one of the linked windows--it must lose track of which window is driving the train]. That said, not everything is instantaneous--for whatever reason, I do sit and wait on Logos to respond from time to time (and my i7 processor utilizations are very low). I usually hover about 4 GB RAM used in total, with more to spare, so RAM isn't the problem. I don't think disk usage is, although based on drive activity indicators, I suspect an SSD would speed up the searches/rebuilds even more. I'm very sure that the Internet functionality of Logos is what brings responsiveness to it's knees for me--building the home page the first time in a session is a very noticeable delay; not because I'm "downloading anything", but because of latency in whatever IP handshaking is going on. The nice thing is other than the program initialization each day (when V4 must be contacting the mother ship & I get a minute or two delay), you can just avoid using the home page and this internet delay won't otherwise effect you.
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Mike - Has the XPS 16 arrived? How do you like it?
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EDIT: post changed to conceal my ignorance. [;)]
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I was referring to the Dell Studio XPS 16 Mike ordered, according to his post at the bottom of page 1 of this thread. He indicated it was due to arrive on April 2, so I just wondered what he thought of it.
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Niels Krag said:
Mike - Has the XPS 16 arrived? How do you like it?
Overall, I love it. It's fast and Logos 4.0 runs great on it - it acts like a normal program. [:D] I've had a few issues with the laptop freezing up, but I think I've solved that (touchpad driver issues). Other than that, there's two aspects of this laptop that I've had to adjust to.
First is the size. At 16" it's a little bigger than what I'm used to, but for carrying between the office and home it's not a huge deal. I wouldn't want something this big if I was back in school.
Second is the screen resolution. At 1920 x 1080 it's a little stressful on the eyes. I've bumped the DPI up to 125% and that helps. This has really been the biggest surprise for me. I'm sure the high resolution is great for gaming, etc., but for what I do (read and write), it's a little too much - though I'm used to it now. I would, however, caution someone with eye problems to stay away from this resolution.
Oh, and everyone's main gripe about the Dell Studio XPS 16... The glossy finish looks sharp, right up until you touch it - it's a fingerprint magnet.
Like I said, though, overall I love it!
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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I tend to avoid any hardware with a glossy finish simply for that very reason. Although in some cases it is hard to do such as with my HP printer.
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Mike - Thank you for your report. Very encouraging!
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I ended up ordering the Studio XPS 16.
It is GREAT! Really, REALLY like it!
Mike, thank you for the encouragement. Runs L4 quite well so far.
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I agree Niels, I upgraded to an xps16 just a few weeks ago, and I'm quite pleased with how it runs L4.
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Niels and Thomas, I had some more issues with my XPS 16 freezing up at random times. Since I updated the bios everything seems to be fine. Make sure you have the latest bios update. Also, when I spoke with Dell Tech they asked me if I was using a 130 watt A/C adapter. I had the 90w, so they sent me a 130w for free. Apparently the 90w's were getting a little too hot?
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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Mike Waugh said:
Second is the screen resolution. At 1920 x 1080 it's a little stressful on the eyes. I've bumped the DPI up to 125% and that helps. This has really been the biggest surprise for me. I'm sure the high resolution is great for gaming, etc., but for what I do (read and write), it's a little too much - though I'm used to it now. I would, however, caution someone with eye problems to stay away from this resolution.
Mike & T.C.,
Isn't there a custom display setting to further increase the DPI (e.g. 150 or more) to provide adequate text size? Are you not pleased with the text when the size is increased?
I'd appreciate feedback as I love high-res displays and may be buying another laptop this year.
I remember that a long time ago high resolution displays didn't have enough adjustment, but my 2.5 year old Dell with SXGA+ has plenty of adjustment for my 50 year old eyes.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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Mike,
Thank you. I checked the BIOS especially because you mentioned it. Appeared to be the latest. Drivers too. I haven't experienced the freezing problems thus far. I had read about the charger problem and strongly requested they send the 130w adapter from the beginning and they did. From my reading, hard core gamers were experiencing slower CPU performance because the 90w unit was not providing sufficient power. I don't know how true any of that is, but it makes sense to have the more powerful unit, especially since it is free.
Thank you again! Your posts have been most helpful!
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Scott,
My eyes are 56 years old and the resolution adjustments in Windows 7 and Logos 4 provide comfortable reading for me.
I was afraid the high res text would be too small for my Sunday School class, but the projector has a lower resolution (VGA connector), so that did not prove to be a problem. I ramped up the percentage of font size to 200% in the L4 settings.Seemed to work okay in class.
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Neils, thanks for the feedback! [:)]
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Scott,
Yes, there's plenty of DPI adjustment with Win 7. Actually, I'm used to it now - I just had to adjust a little bit.
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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Yes, I'd heard of the 130W adapter issue, I haven't called in about it yet, but I think I will just to be sure. And yes, my 90W adapter does get quite toasty to say the least when I've depleted my battery a bit and need to recharge.
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I think you made the right choice. I basically have both of what you were looking at, the older processor at home, the I5 (in my case) at work. The I5, with 1/2 the memory (4 vs 8gb) is way faster running L4. Truthfully, even the older one runs it well, the the I5 is just awesome.
My only suggestion would of been to consider making it yourself, but that is kinda mute since you already ordered it.
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Mike Waugh said:
Niels and Thomas, I had some more issues with my XPS 16 freezing up at random times. Since I updated the bios everything seems to be fine. Make sure you have the latest bios update. Also, when I spoke with Dell Tech they asked me if I was using a 130 watt A/C adapter. I had the 90w, so they sent me a 130w for free. Apparently the 90w's were getting a little too hot?
Just got off the phone with Dell (man was that tech hard to understand!) I ordered the 130 watt adapter replacement. Did you have to ship back your 90w? I guess it doesn't matter, I just know I may not be in the office for a few days when it arrives and I don't want to get charged for it if I don't ship it back in time.
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Thomas Black said:
I don't want to get charged for it if I don't ship it back in time.
I've done the Dell return thing a few times and I believe at that point I had 30 days to return a part before being charged. Probably the same now.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Thomas Black said:
Just got off the phone with Dell (man was that tech hard to understand!) I ordered the 130 watt adapter replacement. Did you have to ship back your 90w? I guess it doesn't matter, I just know I may not be in the office for a few days when it arrives and I don't want to get charged for it if I don't ship it back in time.
I didn't order mine. The Dell tech guy said he would send one for free. Plus I got to keep my 90w. Now I leave the 130w plugged in at my office so I don't have to go underneath my desk every morning to plug it in. I keep the 90w in my bag for using elsewhere.
You might want to call back and see if they'll send you the 130w for free. I believe new systems are shipping with the 130w now, so it's worth a shot.
Dell Studio XPS16 / Win 7 64bit / i7 Q720 @ 1.60GHz (2.80GHz Turbo) 6MB Cache / 4GB RAM / 500GM Hard Disk @ 7200 RPM / ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 4670 – 1GB
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Yeah, they're shipping it free. I just didn't clarify whether or not I was shipping back the 90w. I guess I'll find out soon enough. [:)]
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All,
Though it has nothing directly to do with L4, you might want to hold off a while as the new USB 3.0 is integrated into the different laptop brands.
Paul
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Give us time Paul, We'll come up with an L4 link - however tenuous it may be.
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