Sources for Lutheran books.
I have noticed that several Lutheran resources offered by Logos are from the ELCA which is very liberal. So liberal that they even condone ordaining homosexuals. Is there a reason they do not use the more conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran Church as a source for resources?
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James Myers said:
Is there a reason they do not use the more conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran Church as a source for resources?
Yes, the Missouri Synod presents some specific difficulties as a Logos partner. Logos does have a significant amount of material from the even more conservative WELS. If you want LCMS to have more resources in Logos, make sure they know.
James Myers said:So liberal that they even condone ordaining homosexuals
That is not necessarily a mark of liberalism depending upon the behavioral restrictions they place on them ... which it why it falls into the category of theological discussion which belongs on ChristianDiscourse.com.
Disclosure: I am not Lutheran. My Grandmother was Apostolic Lutheran (a very conservative pietist branch); my daughter-in-law is an ELCA minister.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The LCMS and WELS content issues are more specifically with each denomination's publishing house (Concordia and Northwestern respectively). Like all other publishers, they have their own individual agreements with Faithlife/Logos. And like some of those other publishers, they are less cooperative with Logos' bundling and discounting practices. Short of a successful renegotiation of those agreements, nothing can or will change.
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James Myers said:
I have noticed that several Lutheran resources offered by Logos are from the ELCA which is very liberal.
As a ELCA educated LCMS lay person, I have lots of opinions on this. "Liberal" and "Conservative" may have a bit a meaning, but what exactly they mean varies a lot. Last I saw, the "experts" on American Religion place the ELCA as a moderate mainline body - like the United Methodists, and not as a Liberal mainline body like the ECUSA, UCC, and the PCUSA. Of course, if you want to say "mainline" equals "liberal", you may. You can certainly say that there are significant Liberals in the ELCA, with the late Marcus Borg as probably the most popular...
James Myers said:So liberal that they even condone ordaining homosexuals.
Ah - so this is your single yardstick? The thing is that to this Confessional Lutheran wants to go to Augsburg Confession 7, which states that the unity of the church is based on the pure treaching of Gospel and the administration of the sacraments according to this gospel, and not based on disciplinary standards for clergy....
James Myers said:Is there a reason they do not use the more conservative Missouri Synod Lutheran Church as a source for resources?
I am not a party to the discussions between CPH (the LCMS's publishing house) and Faithlife. But is is quite obvious from seeing the specials offered in the past that CPH has some specific controls on pricing. I suspect they do not want to undercut their own print offerings with the Digital offerings. Heck, often CPH books on Amazon are at very little of a discount.
It hurts that the American editions of Luther's Works are not in any base packages - and also some significant English editions of Melanchthon, Chemnitz, Gerhardt, Elert, Sasse, etc. that are in the CPH catalogue. But the Logos 7 Lutheran libraries are by far the best Lutheran libraries that Logos has offered. Is it the same as my theological viewpoint? No. But it has some very significant voices that try to articulate what it means to be Lutheran to their age, including today and I welcome it. I particularly welcome it as someone who left the ELCA because my corner of it did not at all seem interested in talking about Lutheran things.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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No it's not my single yardstick, but condoning homosexuality is against God's will and this kind of stuff is continually creeping into every aspect of society. Yes I am against it and will continue to be on the lookout. I believe it is my duty as a Christian.
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James Myers said:
No it's not my single yardstick, but condoning homosexuality is against God's will and this kind of stuff is continually creeping into every aspect of society. Yes I am against it and will continue to be on the lookout. I believe it is my duty as a Christian.
Because you are new to the forums (6 posts) let me clarify although you may already know and you certainly gave an appropriate response to the preceding post. The discussion belongs on ChristianDiscourse not here. In the context of SOFTWARE forums we don't collectively care whether you are for, against or undecided; we want to make everyone using using the software comfortable coming here to have their questions answered. Individually we may have very strong beliefs on the topic which is why ChristianDiscourse is provided by Faithlife for use to discuss them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ is correct that "Logos does have a significant amount of material from the even more conservative WELS." Moreover, Northwestern Publishing House (NPH) has a few excellent collections at a great discount:
- The Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) includes several useful resources. List price of its printed resources is $2,115.59, but its Logos price is only $524.99.
- The Peoples Bible: Complete Set, which is included in the Collection One set (above), includes 42 volumes that span every book of the OT and NT. It is an excellent commentary for laypeople and pastors alike. Its Logos price is only $219.99.
- For small group Bible studies, check out NPH's Whole Bible Project Complete Set. It is not available on Logos (yet?), but its material (in PDF and RTF format) complements The Peoples Bible commentary, can be copied for small group studies and has excellent questions & answers for 30- to 60-minutes of discussion (such a page usually covers about one chapter). It is the best material that I have seen for small group Bible studies.
http://online.nph.net/t-servingyou_biblestudies_wholebible.aspx
0 - The Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) includes several useful resources. List price of its printed resources is $2,115.59, but its Logos price is only $524.99.
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David McCulloch said:
MJ is correct that "Logos does have a significant amount of material from the even more conservative WELS." Moreover, Northwestern Publishing House (NPH) has a few excellent collections at a great discount:
- The Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) includes several useful resources. List price of its printed resources is $2,115.59, but its Logos price is only $524.99.
- The Peoples Bible: Complete Set, which is included in the Collection One set (above), includes 42 volumes that span every book of the OT and NT. It is an excellent commentary for laypeople and pastors alike. Its Logos price is only $219.99.
- For small group Bible studies, check out NPH's Whole Bible Project Complete Set. It is not available on Logos (yet?), but its material (in PDF and RTF format) complements The Peoples Bible commentary, can be copied for small group studies and has excellent questions & answers for 30- to 60-minutes of discussion (such a page usually covers about one chapter). It is the best material that I have seen for small group Bible studies.
http://online.nph.net/t-servingyou_biblestudies_wholebible.aspx
Thank you for this David. Much appreciated.
0 - The Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) includes several useful resources. List price of its printed resources is $2,115.59, but its Logos price is only $524.99.
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MJ. Smith said:James Myers said:
No it's not my single yardstick, but condoning homosexuality is against God's will and this kind of stuff is continually creeping into every aspect of society. Yes I am against it and will continue to be on the lookout. I believe it is my duty as a Christian.
Because you are new to the forums (6 posts) let me clarify although you may already know and you certainly gave an appropriate response to the preceding post. The discussion belongs on ChristianDiscourse not here. In the context of SOFTWARE forums we don't collectively care whether you are for, against or undecided; we want to make everyone using using the software comfortable coming here to have their questions answered. Individually we may have very strong beliefs on the topic which is why ChristianDiscourse is provided by Faithlife for use to discuss them.
I originally posted in this particular forum because Logos includes several ELCA resources in their Lutheran base package, and I am trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to the Logos 7 Lutheran base package. It has several ELCA resources included in it and I do not particularly want ELCA resources in my library considering their view on homosexuality.
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James Myers said:
I originally posted in this particular forum because Logos includes several ELCA resources in their Lutheran base package, and I am trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to the Logos 7 Lutheran base package. It has several ELCA resources included in it and I do not particularly want ELCA resources in my library considering their view on homosexuality.
Trying to skate the forum rules here... I know about viewing the ELCA as suspect - I had to leave it because of some of its problems. But the word does not return empty (Isa 55:11) and whatever problems it has, the power of the word is such that it does create true faith in the true God. (1 Kings 19:18) Look at the resources that you would get. I myself am quite interested in getting the volumes form The Classics of Western Spirituality. I am interested in reading the first translation of Bugenhagen into English. Having read some journal articles by Schwarzwäller in Lutheran Quarterly, the idea of reading a book by him is appealing. Wengert's book on the Catechisms is also quite good. In many ways I cut my theological teeth on Forde and Gritsch/Jenson.
If you look at the Logos web pages for many of these individual books, you will see some positive reviews by LCMS professors. I am sure they will say that they do not agree with them 100%, but you can still learn much from them about speaking Lutheranism to today. Of course, everything is to be read critically. Even what I agree with, I have to read this way. That is how you get to the heart of the matter and learn to, even haltingly speak the truth of the Gospel...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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Could we please be done complaining about my church body now? As has been pointed out, this really isn't the place.
James, it's a shame you're not open to the resources from Augsburg and Fortress Press, since they are not as monolithic as you imagine them. There's some really great stuff there. You've got Bonhoeffer, Wright, Brueggemann, Wengert, Forde, and a whole bunch of other gems.
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James Myers said:
I originally posted in this particular forum because Logos includes several ELCA resources in their Lutheran base package, and I am trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to the Logos 7 Lutheran base package.
It is the appropriate forum if you just leave out the trashing of the ELCA ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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James Myers said:
...Logos includes several ELCA resources in their Lutheran base package, and I am trying to decide whether or not to upgrade to the Logos 7 Lutheran base package. It has several ELCA resources included in it and I do not particularly want ELCA resources in my library...
James, you are not alone in the search for an appropriate base library. Many LCMS, WELS and ELS members love their synod’s theology and the material that their synods produce and they want to see more of that material in Logos’ libraries. Fortunately, you do have several options. For example:
- You could stay with Logos 6 and wait a few months (February 2017?) for the Logos 7 engine (without additional feature sets) to become available for $0.
- You could simply purchase the books that you want now instead of purchasing a base package. To do that, you should examine the collections that include those books, because you might find a collection that includes other desired books at a very substantial discount. I already mentioned the Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) that is available on Logos for only $524.99.
- You could purchase the Logos 7 Full Feature Set separately, although for only a few dollars more (depending upon your current resources) you could purchase the Standard’s Bronze Library + Logos 7 Full Feature Set, which might give you many valuable resources.
- You could become a Logos Now member for $99.99/year ($89.99 for the first year), which (among many other things), would give you a 25% discount on the Logos 7 Full Feature Set and a 10% discount on Logos 7 libraries. Personally, I have not made that jump.
By the way, if you are not using Logos’ "collections", I encourage you to learn how to create collections of your favorite books. For example, if you created an “LCMS” collection that included all of your LCMS books, you could easily limit a search to just those books. You could even create a second, broader collection (perhaps “Lutheran”) that included your LCMS books and your WELS books. Collections are very flexible. Here are a couple short videos to help you get started.
Collections Overview
https://www.logos.com/training/logos6/quick-collectionsCreating a Collection
https://www.logos.com/training/logos6/Collections0 - You could stay with Logos 6 and wait a few months (February 2017?) for the Logos 7 engine (without additional feature sets) to become available for $0.
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Hi James,
I am a Lutheran pastor who doesn't own a "Lutheran" base package . In the past I bought two standard base package (Original Languages + Scholars) and mostly built the rest of my library a la carte as my resources as needs and sales developed. Even though resources may be more expensive this way, it could save you money in the long run - buying only what you need. Check the monthly sales page or wait for the big Holiday sales and call Logos and you can sometimes get Concordia/NPH resources at a good discount.
If you are looking for confessional commentary resources (both Lutheran and Non-Lutheran), there are two old suggestion sheets from Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary that could guide you. Remember that you have to read even the best commentary with discernment, but here is a starting point:
Here is a 2014 OT Commentary quick evaluation sheet: http://essays.wls.wels.net/bitstream/handle/123456789/857/BrugCommentariesOT2014.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
Here is a 2001/2002 Commentary quick evaluation sheet. It includes the NT: http://essays.wls.wels.net/bitstream/handle/123456789/795/BrugCommentaries.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
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David McCulloch said:
James, you are not alone in the search for an appropriate base library. Many LCMS, WELS and ELS members love their synod’s theology and the material that their synods produce and they want to see more of that material in Logos’ libraries. Fortunately, you do have several options. For example:
- You could stay with Logos 6 and wait a few months (February 2017?) for the Logos 7 engine (without additional feature sets) to become available for $0.
- You could simply purchase the books that you want now instead of purchasing a base package. To do that, you should examine the collections that include those books, because you might find a collection that includes other desired books at a very substantial discount. I already mentioned the Northwestern Publishing House Electronic Library: Collection One (100 vols.) that is available on Logos for only $524.99.
- You could purchase the Logos 7 Full Feature Set separately, although for only a few dollars more (depending upon your current resources) you could purchase the Standard’s Bronze Library + Logos 7 Full Feature Set, which might give you many valuable resources.
- You could become a Logos Now member for $99.99/year ($89.99 for the first year), which (among many other things), would give you a 25% discount on the Logos 7 Full Feature Set and a 10% discount on Logos 7 libraries. Personally, I have not made that jump.
By the way, if you are not using Logos’ "collections", I encourage you to learn how to create collections of your favorite books. For example, if you created an “LCMS” collection that included all of your LCMS books, you could easily limit a search to just those books. You could even create a second, broader collection (perhaps “Lutheran”) that included your LCMS books and your WELS books. Collections are very flexible. Here are a couple short videos to help you get started.
Collections Overview
https://www.logos.com/training/logos6/quick-collectionsCreating a Collection
https://www.logos.com/training/logos6/CollectionsI would add CPH's Concordia Electronic Theological Library for $475.99 to the above suggestions. And the Concordia Commentary, for $1049.99, is a solidly confessional Lutheran and generally academically rigorous commentary set, comparable in the latter criteria to any similarly-priced commentary set.
If you want to go deeper, search the Logos store for "Concordia Publishing House", "Northwestern Publishing House", and "Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod". There's other good content available there, just not in base packages or generically-mixed-publisher bundles.
0 - You could stay with Logos 6 and wait a few months (February 2017?) for the Logos 7 engine (without additional feature sets) to become available for $0.
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David, Michael, and Virgil,
Thanks for your advice and suggestions. It is an important issue, regardless of what some say, and I am NOT willing to compromise my principles.
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James Myers said:
I am NOT willing to compromise my principles.
I suspect you misspoke and meant to say "God's principles" ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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James Myers said:
It is an important issue, regardless of what some say, and I am NOT willing to compromise my principles.
James,
You're clearly free to buy whatever resource you like from whatever publishing house. No one has suggested you violate your principles. But I'm not clear what LCMS principle would be violated if you dug into the works of Bonhoeffer, as an example. Wright's position on homosexuality would probably be a comfortable one in the LCMS. So why would you have a moral objection to any and all AF titles? I'm honestly perplexed at this.
But if it offends your conscience to buy resources from Augsburg Fortress, then really your best course of action is ultimately to motivate your own church body's publishing house to make more of its catalog available in Logos. AF has been doing a great job with this. Rather than bemoaning that fact, why not seek to expand the Lutheran-published material in Logos?
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James Myers said:
...I do not particularly want ELCA resources in my library...
James,
If you purchase a package with a few resources that you never want to reference, you could "hide" them, which essentially removes them from your Logos library (if you ever want them back, you could unhide them). Hiding resources from Logos' Library window would allow you to sort your library by publisher (e.g., Fortress Press), making the job rather quick and easy. For more information, here is the link:
https://www.logos.com/training/logos5/hide-resources
That said, some excellent material that is used by more conservative synods such as the WELS is in Logos with a Publisher of Fortress Press. One example is R. C. H. Lenski's "Commentary on the New Testament" series (LCNT). Keep in mind that the ELCA did not even exist when some Fortress Press books were authored.
By the way, Michael mentioned Professor Brug's Old and New Testament Commentary evaluations. They are excellent resources that rate commentaries from many sources. Professor Brug, who is very gifted and recently retired from the WELS seminary (Wisconsin Lutheran Seminary), assembled those commentary evaluations while he was still at the seminary. The lists are used by pastors, seminary students and laymen alike. Many or most of their commentaries (such as Lenski's series) are already in Logos.
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