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Francis said:
all we need now is an accessible summary if the above won't do.
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.
AFAIK, that's Faithlife's view, too. It will come. But it's hard to create a simple UI for something so powerful, which is why it's taking a long time.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax.
Yes!
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Mark Barnes said:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact.
Agreed ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.
I'm really looking forward to that day. It will take Logos to the next level.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Francis said:Graham Criddle said:
Francis - does this adequately answer your question?
No, Graham. What there is on this page is precisely what I do not want: mostly prescriptions and little in term of elucidation
Is this improved, now? Read all the context, as I tried to avoid tech terms in describing the new search {extension} and datatypes
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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What would be useful for many computer and "Information Technology" users (as Mark says "not a replacement but an add-on alternative") would be to add the capability to use "regular expressions" as so many programming languages do and as is selectable in "eSword" Bible software. With programming and "BIG DATA" as the future, this will become more important.
This very powerful tool will work in many places and be around for a long time. It is industry standard.
IBM insisted on "EBCDIC" while the rest of the world used "ASCII"
Then they insisted on their own Operating Systems while most others went with "UNIX"
They eventually had to submit, buying a version 3 of UNIX from AT&T and branding it as "AIX"
I am sure a number of examples could be given for Microsoft refusing to fit in with current industry standards. They did not all end well.
The innovation LOGOS has shown is fantastic, but it is also nice to fit in.
"Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it"
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Bob Diebel said:
The innovation LOGOS has shown is fantastic, but it is also nice to fit in.
I don't believe regular expressions would fit in with most users. The present search syntax can already be cryptic, obscure, even off-putting.
Even as an add-on alternative that most users wouldn't have/need to learn, I believe it would still have a negative effect of making the search learning curve (appear) more steep.
I'd like to see innovation make existing powerful features more intuitive, friendly and accessible to more users.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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It sounds like some people are suggesting they would like a GUI for Logos searching. I wouldn't object to that. I spend so little time using L> because about 95-99% of my time is spent in L3. As a result, I have little awareness of the finer points of the more recent configs (using L5 on my old sys and L6 on my new one). Anything that is more intuitive and less jargo-tecnical would be appreciated.
But, honestly, I mainly just want my reference links to work.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Dave Hooton said:
Is this improved, now?
Wow, that page is mighty loooooooong. I suppose power often comes at the expense of simplicity, or stated other way around, power engenders complexity. The reason I find that page off-putting is because to me it reminds me of Spanish. I "took Spanish" in high school, college, and on-the-job, and I never retained it because I never used it...and not being able to pronounce the rolled-R correctly always helped to diminish my resolve. I know I'm an outlier, but my constant use of L3 means I have little sense that I will ever successfully take that particular hill. In fact, I'm not even sure what I'm missing for the most part. I have a sense I could "get something useful" out of that page of programming code, but I don't know exactly what that would be. I do use L> for things I can't do in L3 (mostly accessing resources not available in L3), but I find the new stuff clunky and overly click-needy.
There's definitely a perception of a vertical learning wall by some folks. I got a friend to buy L4 a few years back. After a few weeks I noticed he was using a free KJV on his phone...it may have even been a PDF! He used to work for NASA, so he's not technically weak. He just got off-put by the clunky "process".
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Dave Hooton put in a commendable effort to make the explanations more approachable. At the time (and for months afterward), I was pressed by deadlines and could not take the time to read it carefully and answer his request for feedback. It says something about the state of affairs that by the time I returned to it, the level of clarity I had attained earlier had already faded away. I was faced with the choice either refreshing myself all over again on the topic or moving on. Let's just say that I still have pressing deadlines.
This is probably a commentary on my own mental fatigue as well. But I think it might also reflect the fact that it remains a complicated system to wrap one's mind around and, most importantly, to call back to mind, especially when one does not have the opportunity to use it extensively all the time. Looking at language acquisition, it is clear that we remember best what we can have a helpful mental picture of.
So my belated thanks to Dave and apologies for not being able to follow through. Your changes are probably as good as it's gonna get in view of the complexity of what it sets out to explain.
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"Even as an add-on alternative that most users wouldn't have/need to learn, I believe it would still have a negative effect of making the search learning curve (appear) more steep."
As to your first point, you are probably right as of today "REGX" would be ignored by most users.
My point is people are getting more and more into computers, and programming so tomorrow I believe more will benefit from its availability, and not having to learn a different search UI for every software package they use.
As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.
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Bob Diebel said:
As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.
I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use. It would then just be one more thing to be puzzled about, especially if the regex was complex.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Bruce Dunning said:Mark Barnes said:
Frankly, what we need now is an interface which allows users to construct these searches without remembering or even understanding the syntax. I don't think any amount of explanation is going to change that fact. For those who can't/don't want to wait, then some of the answers in this thread will help.
I'm really looking forward to that day. It will take Logos to the next level.
Agree!!!
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PetahChristian said:
I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use.
When regular expressions were available (or partially available) I don't remember this being an issue.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Paul said:
Wow, that page is mighty loooooooong. I suppose power often comes at the expense of simplicity, or stated other way around, power engenders complexity.
L3 has a powerful implementation of Regular Expressions and its text search (Bible, Basic etc) has a complexity not approached by L4+. It's all documented, but you don't have to look at its Advanced Searching if the 'standard' searching serves your purposes. In fact L4+ 'standard' searching is deficient because it still does not have a proper logical NOT implementation. L6 introduced the complexity of dataset searching that is described under Sense and Textual on "that page", and which puts various analyses of the biblical text at your fingertips, if you so choose e.g. can I find the quotes from Deuteronomy that appear in the NT? Can I find the Psalms that are attributed to David? Can I find various miracles attributed to Elisha?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Francis said:
Dave Hooton put in a commendable effort to make the explanations more approachable...
So my belated thanks to Dave and apologies for not being able to follow through. Your changes are probably as good as it's gonna get in view of the complexity of what it sets out to explain. .
I'm not fully satisfied with it, but Faithlife still has to make some changes to its auto-suggested formats and inline 'Help' to fix some inconsistencies.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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PetahChristian said:Bob Diebel said:
As an add-on that could be selected if desired, I fail to see how it would have a "negative effect" if it was not default and was easily ignored if not selected.
I think the negative effect would be in regard to the forum, where users come to ask search questions and find answers. Once regular expressions were available to power users, I suspect you'd see more and more answers that utilize them, unnecessarily exposing users to something they might not have chosen to learn or use. It would then just be one more thing to be puzzled about, especially if the regex was complex.
I would use Regular Expressions only where necessary, in much the same way that I would suggest an advanced L6 solution to "Where did Jesus quote Isaiah?". Although I usually supply an explanation, many users just want the answer. I'm not into complex Regex because it is rarely justified in bible software and it confuses me as well!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I appreciate the effort everyone is going to here. But, in the first place, I'm in the middle of an ongoing subject. Also, I will read a statement about how something works, only to read later that that statement was incorrect. And, in a discussion of a particular subject, a second aspect will be thrown in with a new discussion.
I feel like I'm learning about this subject using the jigsaw puzzle approach ( a piece here, a seemingly unrelated piece there. No beginning. Just jump in with the piece you have in your hand). To have a course written by an "authoritative person on this subject" that had a logical (and easy beginning) moving to the more complicated, written in an orderly fashion would take this very complicated and confusing category and make more sense to those of us who want to increase our search ability but just don't know how.
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Hi Pat
Pat Browne said:I appreciate the effort everyone is going to here. But, in the first place, I'm in the middle of an ongoing subject. Also, I will read a statement about how something works, only to read later that that statement was incorrect. And, in a discussion of a particular subject, a second aspect will be thrown in with a new discussion.
Yes this thread was wide-ranging with many different perspectives offered
Pat Browne said:To have a course written by an "authoritative person on this subject" that had a logical (and easy beginning) moving to the more complicated, written in an orderly fashion would take this very complicated and confusing category and make more sense to those of us who want to increase our search ability but just don't know how.
There are various courses / training guides available - such as https://www.logos.com/product/138606/lt270-study-the-bible-with-logos-jonah-1-1-16 and https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training - but what particularly are you hoping to learn / understand better?
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Thanks for the info, Graham. I already have the one on Jonah and didn't know about the other. It sounds like the very thing I need. I get some info from the forums (I save every link so I can go over them when I have the time). But working with them is like being dropped into the middle of a foreign language class several months after it started. In fact, these symbols are a foreign language! that second link you sent sounds like it has a logical beginning and then builds from it.
This week-end, I did use the info you gave me a while back about marking "hesed" in my Bibles. I wanted to give certain words and phrases in Isaiah each a unique highlight. Altho, I was not going to the Hebrew lemma like we did in "hesed," seeing how that was put together gave me what I needed to do my marking in Isaiah. So, thanks again.
Now I going to read up on that advanced search training.
Pat
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