Counterpoints Software Sale: $7 Apiece at Olive Tree and Accordance
Why is this not also featured on logos?
http://zondervanacademic.com/blog/counterpoints-software-sale-at-olive-tree-and-accordance/
Comments
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Someone had the same idea and asked on the blog... their response was: "We attempted that and it just couldn't work out. I apologize -- I hope our next software sale will be at all vendors. ^Adam F."
It seems like it was offered to Logos and they said no so... yeah
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Competition is inconvenient. [;)]
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William Gabriel said:
Competition is inconvenient.
This is true except it seems, from what the rep said, that Zondervan tried to offer this sale at Logos and they refused (who knows why). I could be reading into it or he could have stated it wrong but I'm definitely sad this wasn't made available to us. These books look interesting and I would have bought quite a few at $7.
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Mattillo said:William Gabriel said:
Competition is inconvenient.
This is true except it seems, from what the rep said, that Zondervan tried to offer this sale at Logos and they refused (who knows why). I could be reading into it or he could have stated it wrong but I'm definitely sad this wasn't made available to us. These books look interesting and I would have bought quite a few at $7.
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben Amundgaard said:
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Thank you Ben for trying to do the right thing by those of us who did purchase at a higher price but Genuine Zondervan Sales historically are few and far between and I think offering to customers would have been the right thing to do.
I don't know off hand how long ago these were on pre-pub, I purchased mine I believe as part of a larger Zondervan Collection so can't see them specifically in my order history A time limit on enforcing this policy to the letter of the law should apply. it will benefit others and we all have to accept price fluctuation are the nature of modern life, there is always someone who at some point will come along and offer a better deal.
As I already own all of these books and probably paid higher than $7 a volume then I would be the one of the people you are breaking that commitment too but I have no objections to you doing so.
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I agree with DOC. If it is a publisher sale then it takes it off of your shoulders. Also as DOC mentioned when were all of these titles that are offered up for prepub? If it is greather than [X time period] then I would say that it is ok. If I go buy a fridge and it goes on sale the next year I don't get offended. That's just the way sales go. I don't know if it is too late but I know I would appreciate getting a bite at this Counterpoints sale
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Ben Amundgaard said:
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
I hope that policy can be revisited, as such an arbitrary restriction locks other Logos users out from publisher promotions, and hurts the relationship between Faithlife, publishers, and users.
When a better price comes along down the road, I doubt that pre-pub purchasers would a) regret having purchased and had access to the resource all that time, or b) resent anyone else from ever getting a better deal on a resource we had purchased.
Perhaps a more charitable policy would be that if a publisher offers a sale, the sale would be passed on to all Logos users.
Mattillo said:If I go buy a fridge and it goes on sale the next year I don't get offended. That's just the way sales go.
[Y]
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Ben Amundgaard said:Mattillo said:William Gabriel said:
Competition is inconvenient.
This is true except it seems, from what the rep said, that Zondervan tried to offer this sale at Logos and they refused (who knows why). I could be reading into it or he could have stated it wrong but I'm definitely sad this wasn't made available to us. These books look interesting and I would have bought quite a few at $7.
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Hmm, I can think of a few workarounds that would be good for customers, but...inconvenient. One of them is to have the sale drop the books back to the pre-pub price. There are other acceptable alternatives...
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Yeah this policy doesn't seem a good one to me.
1. I don't think prepub ever actually DOES make that commitment to be the lowest price ever available. It just gives you a good price.
2. Logos has discounted resources below prepub price before (eg the Zondervan 6 for 60 sale recently)
something isn't right.
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I already own Counterpoints and get your policy, but it makes no sense to me. The rare sales from Zondervan should have exception.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Observation: when community pre-publication is included in a Base Package, the price per resource can be substantially less than individual resource purchase (even for pre-publication resources that have not yet shipped individually).
Dreaming of policy time limit(s) for pre-pub lowest price so a publisher sale with lower price can happen. For pre-pub resources within the past few months, perhaps "sale" price could be the pre-pub price. For resources that shipped longer ago, their "sale" price could be lower.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Where on this page is a commitment to prepub being the lowest ever price?
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In my opinion the Logos business model keeps competitive pricing away. This is good for Logos's competitors. Logos wants to protect their pre-pub customers which results in overpriced books and an exemption from future publisher sales. Logos's pre-pub policy needs revamped. Hopefully, this is on Bob's to do list.
http://www.TrinityExamined.com
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Ben Amundgaard said:Mattillo said:William Gabriel said:
Competition is inconvenient.
This is true except it seems, from what the rep said, that Zondervan tried to offer this sale at Logos and they refused (who knows why). I could be reading into it or he could have stated it wrong but I'm definitely sad this wasn't made available to us. These books look interesting and I would have bought quite a few at $7.
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Except it is not true.
For example, when New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis came out...the prepub price was $199.95.
And during the Zondervan 6 at 60 sales in September, the price dropped down to $79.99
[^o)] Just saying...
PCA Church
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EX said:Ben Amundgaard said:Mattillo said:William Gabriel said:
Competition is inconvenient.
This is true except it seems, from what the rep said, that Zondervan tried to offer this sale at Logos and they refused (who knows why). I could be reading into it or he could have stated it wrong but I'm definitely sad this wasn't made available to us. These books look interesting and I would have bought quite a few at $7.
The primary reason we were not able to participate in this sale is that it would have undermined our policy/commitment that the pre-pub price is the lowest price we will offer on a product.
Except it is not true.
For example, when New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis came out...the prepub price was $199.95.
And during the Zondervan 6 at 60 sales in September, the price dropped down to $79.99
Just saying...There have been occasions when things have slipped by us. There are probably other instances of this as well. We try do all we can to avoid it.
Senior Director, Content Products
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I would appreciate it if you would do away with it or at least put a limit on it... it seems a tad ridiculous to me that (in this instance) I'll never have a chance to get a good deal on some of the counterpoints books at least until Jesus returns.
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PetahChristian said:
I hope that policy can be revisited, as such an arbitrary restriction locks other Logos users out from publisher promotions, and hurts the relationship between Faithlife, publishers, and users.
We do plan to revisit the policy in the new year. We just want to make sure we've worked out all the details so we can reset customers expectations accurately and spell the terms out clearly.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Mattillo said:
I would appreciate it if you would do away with it or at least put a limit on it... it seems a tad ridiculous to me that (in this instance) I'll never have a chance to get a good deal on some of the counterpoints books at least until Jesus returns.
Granted I wouldn't need these when he does return...
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Ben Amundgaard said:PetahChristian said:
I hope that policy can be revisited, as such an arbitrary restriction locks other Logos users out from publisher promotions, and hurts the relationship between Faithlife, publishers, and users.
We do plan to revisit the policy in the new year. We just want to make sure we've worked out all the details so we can reset customers expectations accurately and spell the terms out clearly.
I sure hope you do because all you are doing is alienating new customers from good deals that are being set by publishers. I can understand if you choose not to offer these deals on your own but if the publisher wants to sell these at a deal then you should let it go through.
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To say there's been a few slip-offs is an understatement! Especially when a lot of stuff gets included in Base Packages even before they make it out of prepub. Just admit it, your policy is flawed in so many ways that is practically a joke to try to honor it and it makes you look bad.
DAL
Ps. Sorry Ben, I don't mean this in a bad way but, please, get up to speed because we've been told that the main purpose of the prepub program is to help get books published in the Logos platform and not to get the lowest price ever (Yes, "the lowest price ever" quote got removed a long time ago). Therefore since a lot of books don't get sufficient funds (prepub orders) to get publish they get removed from the prepub program. If this wasn't the case, then Logos would just go ahead and publish books regardless of whether people ordered them or not. So you should make it clear for people to understand that when they place a pre-pub order they are just helping get the book published in Logos format and that they are getting a good price but they shouldn't get upset if the publisher decides to sell it at an even lower price a few days or months later after it releases. There, I just poked a huge hole in the pre-pup program's "honor policy!" Now let it die and let us help you make some money in the process by purchasing the resources that go on publisher's sales!
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Ben Amundgaard said:PetahChristian said:
I hope that policy can be revisited, as such an arbitrary restriction locks other Logos users out from publisher promotions, and hurts the relationship between Faithlife, publishers, and users.
We do plan to revisit the policy in the new year. We just want to make sure we've worked out all the details so we can reset customers expectations accurately and spell the terms out clearly.
It seems that many "expectations" aren't really favorable to us:
- Publisher collections aren't eligible for dynamic pricing,
- Publisher resources are prohibited from discounts,
- Publisher resources can't be included in base packages, and now
- Faithlife won't undercut pre-pub pricing.
Whether we call them terms, restrictions, or policy, whether they're governed by contract or arbitrary business model, I would think that fewer unfavorable terms would be better for everyone.
- The publisher is happy when I buy and use their resource, when it's on sale.
- Faithlife is happy that I'm using a Logos resource, instead of reading the book in a competitor's program, because it was cheaper there.
- I'm happy that I can study and learn, instead of putting specific courses/purchases on hold for a year or two until some infrequent sale occurs in the first place.
Even the whole notion of "ebook" verses digital bible software edition is absurd. For example, the NIVAC is currently on sale for $4.99/volume, if you want to buy the ebook edition, but the Logos editions are not on sale. Please, let's make it easier to access resources within Logos, instead of forcing people to go outside the program.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Logos still hasn't updated to carry a newish one I want, Genesis: History, Fiction, or Neither?
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Again can someone point me to where this "expectation" has been created?
and find me one person who wants the alleged "expectation" kept?
Unless someone comes forward who wants the price to stay high, I think you are free to drop the attempt to "honor" expectations and just give everybody the publisher sale.
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Thank you all for your feedback on this. As we review the current pre-pub program, we will try to address all the concerns you've raised (many of which we've already been discussing).
Senior Director, Content Products
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Thank you all for your feedback on this. As we review the current pre-pub program, we will try to address all the concerns you've raised (many of which we've already been discussing).
Run Ben, run!!! Alright, we'll leave you alone. Is not entirely your fault anyway. 😂😜😁
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Thank you all for your feedback on this. As we review the current pre-pub program, we will try to address all the concerns you've raised (many of which we've already been discussing).
Hopefully you will have some good news to report, Ben, not merely thanks for the feedback. Some issues haven't changed in over two years, despite posts from FL acknowledging the issue.
I like the pre-pub program, and have a lot of orders on pre-pub, but it's especially frustrating when a pre-pub ships and there's a problem FL doesn't even acknowledge, or commit to fix.
Other times, a problem is acknowledged, but FL needs to determine how to solve it. The waiting game isn't enjoyable, when FL has my money, and I am at FL's mercy to fix a resource problem. (Returning a course isn't a practical option, unless FL lets us buy the course again at pre-pub prices once the initial issues are fixed.)
I really like Logos. I wish general issues like this could be fixed as quickly as bug fixes and new features get rolled out.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Yes thank you for responding. I'm hoping in the future you will honor publisher sales
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Four Views of Baptism was even free in the past, which is also lower than pre pub.
(Does the policy actually imply that no resource that has ever been on pre pub can become free...??)
So this is really a shame. I'm sure I would have picked up two or three of those. I really enjoyed Four Views of Baptism.
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Ben Amundgaard said:PetahChristian said:
I hope that policy can be revisited, as such an arbitrary restriction locks other Logos users out from publisher promotions, and hurts the relationship between Faithlife, publishers, and users.
We do plan to revisit the policy in the new year. We just want to make sure we've worked out all the details so we can reset customers expectations accurately and spell the terms out clearly.
IMHO, a certain amount of time should pass where a pre-pub price is protected from low-ball sales; that rewards early birds, who have the product earlier and longer to use. But after that set time, the product should be sold for any price that vendors desire.
Last year, some ICC commentaries could be had for $1.99. I don't think they were ever that cheap in pre-pub. And last November, the Hermeneia Matthew volumes were free and 1.99. That's below the pre-pub price I'm sure.
In sum the reason given for Counterpoint not offered by Logos sounds doesn't add up.
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PetahChristian said:
but it's especially frustrating when a pre-pub ships and there's a problem FL doesn't even acknowledge, or commit to fix.
Can you give some examples? I've had good luck at getting major production problems fixed quickly as far as I recall.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Thank you all for your feedback on this. As we review the current pre-pub program, we will try to address all the concerns you've raised (many of which we've already been discussing).
If you're taking feedback, then I'd just like to add my confused & upset face to the mix. This policy sounds utterly absurd to me - I'd assumed it was down to your company's finances - wanting to protect your prices etc, and I was totally happy with that. The idea that you'd charge everyone more than necessary because you think it improves the customer experience, though? Ugh.
If I buy a discounted item and I've had it in my library for more than the 30 day return window, I can take the fact that prices change, and I can take it much more happily than I could take the idea that supporting books at the prepub stage negatively impacts future buyers.
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MJ. Smith said:
Can you give some examples? I've had good luck at getting major production problems fixed quickly as far as I recall.
I have not found any major production problems. The minor inconveniences involve non-availability of resources used by new Mobile Ed courses, as well as lack of dynamic pricing for resources that upcoming Mobile Ed courses will use.
I can't even get a response to a pricing issue that I posted about before this Mobile Ed sale, or an answer about this Kings of Israel bundle that uses resources which offer no dynamic pricing.
I've already posted/provided examples, but will be happy to take the time to provide them again, if someone cares to fix the issues.
I don't know if any Mobile Ed issues I've encountered will get fixed, quickly or at all. Time will tell.
I do understand that it is much easier for FL to put their own products on sale, but most of the resources we want or need tend to come from other publishers. Any policies or terms that prohibit publisher sales (or bundling or dynamic pricing) hurt FL, us, and the publisher.
Bible study software is beneficial, but much patience and money is required to expand its library. I hope FL will not neglect the value of passing on savings to us.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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This ignores the elephant in the room in that stuff goes on prepub then is included in base packages at a fraction of that price.
For this reason I have pretty much stopped buying on pre pub, as I would have saved a fortune if I had just waited for a base package incuded such items.
This is in my view why the pricing model is flawed from a customers perspective.
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Mike Pettit said:
This ignores the elephant in the room in that stuff goes on prepub then is included in base packages at a fraction of that price.
For this reason I have pretty much stopped buying on pre pub, as I would have saved a fortune if I had just waited for a base package incuded such items.
This is in my view why the pricing model is flawed from a customers perspective.
Thank you Mike for this information. It was something I wondered about. It will change my buying habits.
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I agree Mike and I feel like FL is pushing this into a corner and saying they'll look at in the future (which who knows when that will be as Logos 7 Bundles are still in the wind) and will forget about it.
I'm also annoyed that they said the Zondervan sale mistakenly happened a few months ago. Why would you not want your customers to get great resources at prices being handed down by a publisher who rarely gives deals (no dynamic pricing)? It makes no sense to say well X amount of people got this at one price Y years ago so no more sales ever on this. I can't imagine or think of a business that does this today. We have a 30 day return window. If a sale comes return and rebuy but to walk into a store 6 months later and demand a refund because something went on sale is ludicrous. Something smells fishy here. I know my opinion may not be the right one but if FL truly cares about their customers they would offer deals from publishers. If it is a money issue be honest about it and offer the sale where you can afford it but to hide behind this prepub business is silly
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You guys have broken that promise several times. The last major one I can remember is when the Zondervan languages collection went on sale for less than prepub not too long ago.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:
You guys have broken that promise several times. The last major one I can remember is when the Zondervan languages collection went on sale for less than prepub not too long ago.
More worrying is the idea that they'd make the promise in the first place - I just don't get why they'd do it. If I buy a book in Pre-pub, I'm doing it because I want the book, not gloating rights about the bargain price I got. I don't mind if other people pay less than me, provided that there's a reason for it. I do mind denying the sale to others because you're worried that I'll be spiteful about it.
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James McAdams said:Joseph Turner said:
You guys have broken that promise several times. The last major one I can remember is when the Zondervan languages collection went on sale for less than prepub not too long ago.
More worrying is the idea that they'd make the promise in the first place - I just don't get why they'd do it. If I buy a book in Pre-pub, I'm doing it because I want the book, not gloating rights about the bargain price I got. I don't mind if other people pay less than me, provided that there's a reason for it. I do mind denying the sale to others because you're worried that I'll be spiteful about it.
I agree (if that hasn't been obvious by this point)... I also don't remember anyone complaining about the Zondervan sale and crying about how people are getting NIDNTTE at a cheaper price
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I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.
Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.
However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.
Senior Director, Content Products
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Just a thought: Might it be possible that we customers prefered flexibility over consistency? [*-)]
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Ben Amundgaard said:
I definitely understand all your frustrations. We are looking at the pre-pub program right now. I'm not giving any projections of when things might change.
Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. We've probably not aways done the best job of communicating clear expectations. We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that. A major goal of our re-evaluation of the pre-pub program is to set out clear parameters, communicate them clearly with customers, and maintain consistency in how we execute the program.
However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.
This is understandable but my worries are how long will it take to review this policy (besides the policy not being very good <- seems to be a majority opinion in this listing at least). With the holidays coming, how many more deals will your customers miss out on while you review this?
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Jan Krohn said:
Might it be possible that we customers prefered flexibility over consistency?
I would think so, but the problem I see (especially on the forums here) is that people will prefer the one that benefits them the most at the current time.
I'm sure that once FL makes changes in their PrePub vs Sales Price come the new year, a group of people may not be happy. I would even expect if the current standards are changed, there may be a segment of voices asking for a retro-active application of "lost sales dollars" because it's "not a fair practice."
But I may be a little pessimistic this morning or maybe I've added too much FanBoy KoolAid in my morning drink. *weak attempt at humor* I'll ask for forgiveness if I sound that way. [:D]
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Mark me down as another customer who is frustrated and unconvinced as to why Logos would keep these deals from its customers, especially Zondervan deals.
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Ben Amundgaard said:
Yes, we've definitely not always done a good job at keeping things above pre-pub price. ... We've probably not always been terribly consistent. I'm sorry for that.
I think part of the problem is that FL envisions the concept of keeping things above pre-pub price as a good job.
I doubt anyone would say that it's great that FL consistently does a "good job" by never offering items on sale, should a publisher come out with a better deal than FL had offered in the past.
Holding on to a bad policy until you eventually come up with a different one, solely for the sake of "consistency" is flawed. Just please drop the policy if it's bad, instead of perpetuating it and frustrating customers in the meantime.
Mike Pettit said:This ignores the elephant in the room in that stuff goes on prepub then is included in base packages at a fraction of that price.
For this reason I have pretty much stopped buying on pre pub, as I would have saved a fortune if I had just waited for a base package incuded such items.
This is in my view why the pricing model is flawed from a customers perspective.
Yes x100. As a recent new customer -- bought L6 in May --I've discovered that FL has to redo packages every major version to get people to buy the latest libraries and topical bundles. I expect to save a great deal more when pre-pubs are bundled. I don't know what it was like in the past, but L7 included a fair number of pre-pubs.
It's odd that FL quibbles about not putting a single item on sale if it's below pre-pub, when we'd all desire that more items were bundled, rather than paying a premium to buy items one-by-one, even at pre-pub. But FL makes more profit from per-item sales, which is probably the reason for the pricing model and bottom line.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Richard Villanueva said:
I would think so, but the problem I see (especially on the forums here) is that people will prefer the one that benefits them the most at the current time.
This has been discussed in length before:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/128219.aspx
If every customer would get every product at the best-price-ever, all companies would be out of business now, without exception.
Anyone who is uncomfortable with free market economy could just emigrate to Cuba or other communist/socialist countries, and avoid henceforth all issues related to feeling unfairly treated by restrictions of sales, promotions and special deals...
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Ben Amundgaard said:
However, the best place to start that consistency is by consistently holding to our current policy until we intentionally role out a different one.
So no more free book of the month because that's definitely below prepub price.[6]
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This seems like selective participation in sales by Logos to me. The Zondervan Biblical Languages Collection went on sale for $308.33 in December of 2015, and it was on pre-pub for $474.95. I did say something back then to bring it to the attention of Logos, and nothing was ever said, but now suddenly Logos wants to stick to the pre-pub/lowest price? It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Joseph Turner said:
It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale
I was thinking the same thing reading this thread.
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Joseph Turner said:
This seems like selective participation in sales by Logos to me. The Zondervan Biblical Languages Collection went on sale for $308.33 in December of 2015, and it was on pre-pub for $474.95. I did say something back then to bring it to the attention of Logos, and nothing was ever said, but now suddenly Logos wants to stick to the pre-pub/lowest price? It makes it sound like Logos just doesn't want to participate in the sale.
I was under the impression that Logos needed to negotiate better contracts with the publishers to be allowed to offer sales, but now I'm thinking that the publishers need to put pressure on Logos to pass along all the sales that the publisher offers.
The notion that FL plans to stop all these sales that inadvertently took place in the past is... shocking... and I'm left to consider whether I should cut my losses and run from this troubling investment.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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