Apostolic Fathers Interlinear?

OK folks we have a great resource n pre-pub that is very close to contract! The Apostolic Fathers Greek-English Interlinear!

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6091

Wouldn't it be nice to have an Interlinear on some of these early documents? This book is done by Logos' Rick Brannan.

1 Clement
2 Clement
Epistles of Ignatius

To the Ephesians
To the Magnesians
To the Trallians
To the Romans
To the Philadelphians
To the Smyrnaeans
To Polycarp

The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians
The Didache
The Epistle of Barnabas
The Shepherd of Hermas
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
The Epistle to Diognetus

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Comments

Rosie Perera

OK, I hadn't ordered this because I don't know Greek. But I might learn it someday (I really would like to) and I might kick myself for not having ordered this when I could. So I'm in. It's very close! And my order seemed to make a perceptible difference. I bet the production cost on this one is fairly low because it's being done in-house, and is probably in progress already, or they wouldn't be able to say it's by Rick Brannan.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110071#Comment_110071

I bet the production cost on this one is fairly low because it's being done in-house, and is probably in progress already, or they wouldn't be able to say it's by Rick Brannan.

Yep, this is true, Rick's comment on his work on the forum (there's also a screengrab of some of the data that's already been done on the product page).

DMB

Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110071#Comment_110071

OK, I hadn't ordered this because I don't know Greek.

Not knowing Greek is precisely the reason to own this resource. If you knew Greek, you wouldn't need the interlinear (just ask George!) [:D].

Chris Ease

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110205#Comment_110205

Yep...thats why I like I.L....not fluent in Greek, nevertheless I was one of the first to click on this prepub and now it looks to be at about 98%. We need a few more willing to purchase to push this into production. This is a better buy than the other versions...cheaper....and with interlinear and linked to LN and you could tie this in with your BDAG that quotes many of these references.

Chris Ease

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110766#Comment_110766

ALRIGHT! Its been pushed to a full blue line. Can I hear 100%!!!!!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110883#Comment_110883

ALRIGHT! Its been pushed to a full blue line. Can I hear 100%!!!!!

Wow, OK this will probably only take just one more order to push it over the finish line. Anyone?

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110974#Comment_110974

Anyone?

I tried but no joy. Someone else please.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111130#Comment_111130

It might need a human in Bellingham to flick the switch on Monday.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111157#Comment_111157

Per Rick Brannan's blog it has passed the threshhold!

He also states it's a side job for him to do this, he'll start in June and it may take a year - with some interim releases possible.

http://www.supakoo.com/rick/ricoblog/2010/03/29/LooksLikeItrsquosRealTheApostolicFathersGreekEnglishInterlinear.aspx

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110071#Comment_110071

OK, I hadn't ordered this because I don't know Greek.

Rosie, are you serious that you do not know Greek? Some how, i think this is a mistake but if it is not, then i am truly surprise. Watching your helpful video on Genesis i assume you would be good at Greek.

I don't need to feel that bad at not being good at Greek then [:D].

Ted

Edit: i already placed my order for interlinear(by Rick Brannan)

James Macleod

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110071#Comment_110071

OK, I hadn't ordered this because I don't know Greek. But I might learn it someday (I really would like to) and I might kick myself for not having ordered this when I could. So I'm in. It's very close! And my order seemed to make a perceptible difference. I bet the production cost on this one is fairly low because it's being done in-house, and is probably in progress already, or they wouldn't be able to say it's by Rick Brannan.

Go for it! It was the best thing I ever did.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111366#Comment_111366

Dominick --

Thanks for this thread, the link to my blog, and for the discussion about the Apostolic Fathers interlinear! I appreciate it.

I'm hoping to dig back into the interlinear work in late May or in June. As said, it will take some time to do the work. Pre-pubs tell us how much interest there is before we start a project, so now we get to start the project. I will say, though, that when evaluating the effort the project would take late last year and early this year, I worked through the Didache and Polycarp to the Philippians, so in a sense the project has already started. But, as my daughter Ella would say, "Lots to do, dada, lots to do!"

If you've ordered this, thanks so much!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111427#Comment_111427

OK, I hadn't ordered this because I don't know Greek.

Rosie, are you serious that you do not know Greek? Some how, i think this is a mistake but if it is not, then i am truly surprise. Watching your helpful video on Genesis i assume you would be good at Greek.

I don't need to feel that bad at not being good at Greek then .

Genesis was written in Hebrew originally, not Greek. So I'm surprised you think my video on Genesis could only have been done if I knew Greek. [;)] The only Greek I know is the alphabet and a few vague memories of what some grammatical terms mean and a smattering of vocabulary words from taking one semester of classical Greek in college over 25 years ago (I got a C in it and gave it up after one semester). Whatever I did manage to learn back then I've forgotten. It wasn't biblical Greek anyway. We were reading excerpts from Aristophanes and such.

I took a year of Hebrew in seminary and loved it and did very well in it. I wish I'd gone further with it, but I didn't. And haven't kept up my facility with it by practicing my paradigms and reviewing vocabulary lists. But I do feel I know it much better than I know Greek. Anyway, Logos has some wonderful language features that are usable by people who don't know the languages, or barely know them.

Graeme Edward Hibbard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/111466#Comment_111466

Any chance of the works of the Apologists being turned into an interlinear?

Aristides, Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Theophilus, (IRENAEUS) in particular - his Greek fragments!

Apple Mac's "ACCORDANCE" Bible software has these. But it ONLY run's on Apple Mac's!

"Me very sad Rick - Me want very much!"

Can you help - PLEASE!

It will keep you employed for very long time by LOGOS!

These need a fresh, modern translation made available too! Not some crusty old Roberts & Donaldson, something with MODERN English with up to date scholarship!

My LOGOS SOFTWARE getting old now, so I'm looking at getting newer version!

Me want LEXHAM discourse marker module, and, and, and - all sort's of goodies! Me likie Greek very much!

I already have translated passages from Polycarp, Clement of Rome, a good chunk of Arestides, some of Justin Martyr, Didache, Mathetes to Dognetus, Theophilus, Athenagoras, Eusebius, Epiphanius and others!

Me even had a go at some Latin a few month's back Tertullian, Pliny the Younger. It was fun!

But me need better resources! It's very tiring manually looking up lexicons and grammars, NEW LOGOS = ANSWER to problem!

GoooooOOO LOGOS Yeh!

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110974#Comment_110974

Okay, you've twisted my arm. I don't really like interlinears, because they break my concentration on the text, but for the sake of others … [Y]

Graeme Edward Hibbard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/117431#Comment_117431

WOOOO HOO!

Great stuff!

When?

Me want INSTANT gratifaction!

Just kidding!

Look forward to when you have completed your project. No doubt it will take quite some time. Was not expecting such a prompt answer.

Thank you very much.

OH! Don't forget we want morphological tagging linked to BAGD and nothing less!

Have a great day!

Graeme Edward Hibbard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/119737#Comment_119737

Since you guys are expanding more and more into the Patristic feild, heres a suggestion:

LAMPS Patristic lexicon!

Many Greek words were coined during this period by the ANF and POST-ANF in particular, which are not in BAGD, but are in LAMPS lexicon.

I don't know weather this is public domain or if there are any copyright resrictions on it still, but would certainly compliment ANF Software, Interlinears etc.

What do you think?

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124226#Comment_124226

Since you guys are expanding more and more into the Patristic feild, heres a suggestion:

LAMPS Patristic lexicon!

Many Greek words were coined during this period by the ANF and POST-ANF in particular, which are not in BAGD, but are in LAMPS lexicon.

I don't know weather this is public domain or if there are any copyright resrictions on it still, but would certainly compliment ANF Software, Interlinears etc.

What do you think?

No, its not public domain -- it was published in 1969 by Oxford. A number of us have requested it before -- and Oxford charges more for Lampe than they do for LSJ(MG) -- considering that Logos generally stays relatively close to the book price & this one retails for $600, I don't see a prepub of this volume going very quickly . . . though you can generally pick copies up for $275 or so -- the one $185 copy on Amazon right now is the cheapest copy I've seen in probably four years). For the Apostolic Fathers, you don't need anything more than BDAG -- which covers these extremely early fathers quite thoroughly.

With that said, I have request this one myself and continue to want it in Logos -- especially if the PG (http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4346) ever gets through. hint, hint.

Ron Barry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124231#Comment_124231

I guess this one just flies over my head - I can understand wanting to read the Bible in the original languages, especially if you are a verbal plenary type like me...where every jot and tittle may mean something special. What is the draw to an interlinear for the Early Church Fathers? I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages? Just sayin'

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124258#Comment_124258

Ron

I understand what you mean. What is useful about studying the way the Early Fathers used Greek is simply that their use and understanding of language in its contexts may help us grasp more clearly how the Greek New Testament was understood and applied by those who were much, much closer to the time of the original writers than we are. The early Fathers were not many generations removed from the New Testament writers (especially John).

I already have the early writers in both Greek and English, and to be perfectly honest I don't really need the interlinear, but for people whose Greek is a bit rusty, the interlinear will help them understand what is going on in the Greek text far better than an English translation, where the original is hidden and you have no access to why certain translation choices were made.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124258#Comment_124258

Hi Ron

I guess this one just flies over my head - I can understand wanting to read the Bible in the original languages, especially if you are a verbal plenary type like me...where every jot and tittle may mean something special. What is the draw to an interlinear for the Early Church Fathers? I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages? Just sayin'

Yes, I'd agree, those who are responsible for the writings we call the "Apostolic Fathers" are "just men". That said, they are much closer historically to the events of the New Testament and one can gain great insight into the culture and thinking of the NT by reading other writings of the general era.

Reading them in the same language as the NT will increase one's ability to read the Greek NT. I'd say that in a way similar to how one can gain insight into the language of the KJV by reading and understanding Shakespeare, so one can gain insight into the language of the Greek NT by reading the Apostolic Fathers.

Not to mention all the lexicons and grammars (and commentaries) that refer to the writings of the Apostolic Fathers while they discuss the NT (and OT, for that matter). For those whose Greek is being stretched already, looking at the Greek of non-NT works can be both challenging and intimidating (it was for me). I'm hoping the interlinear can help all sorts of folks look to these other writings, when cited, to help understand the words and grammar of the NT even better.

http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/6091 for the pre-pub page with more information.

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124311#Comment_124311

Yes, I'd agree, those who are responsible for the writings we call the "Apostolic Fathers" are "just men". That said, they are much closer historically to the events of the New Testament and one can gain great insight into the culture and thinking of the NT by reading other writings of the general era.

If I may build on these words...

A few of these writers are also in geographical proximity to where Paul himself would have preached an taught. Combine with their temporal proximity to the NT, they have the potential on occasion for us to see how the church understood the teaching an writing of people like Paul within a generation or two after Paul's death. For that reason they AF also have the potential to shed light on the interpretation of the New Testament as well. Take for example 1 Clement, written in Rome (where Paul live and preached for some time) to Corinth (where Paul lived an preached for some time). Now compare Ephesians 5 with 1 Clement 38. This is the closest we can get to seeing how the early church understood "mutual submission."

After that go take a look at this little book: http://www.logos.com/ebooks/details/NTAPOSTFATHRS -- though if your Greek isn't super good, you may want to pick up an Apostolic Father's Interlinear... [;)]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124258#Comment_124258

I know there is loss in translation, but these are just men and is it vital that their observations be studied in the original languages?

Next thing I know people will question why I'd read Beowulf in Old English when I can read it in Newari (with thanks to a college friend)[:D] Seriously, I have qualms about interlinears as a "cheat sheet" to allow you to avoid really learning a language. But if you are past a rank beginner but not yet fluent, they certainly decrease the frustration and increase speed in a language. And its rare for the translation to be better than the original.

Ron Barry

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/124570#Comment_124570

Thanks for your responses. I can definitely see the value as it gives greater clarity to the NT text and its understanding by people closer to the time the originals were written. I guess anything that helps in our pursuit of understanding what God has to say to us should be considered valuable. I repent.

Patrick Rietveld

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110204#Comment_110204

Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

So what is the difference between these 3 interlinears and the forthcoming one? The pre-pub info says that there are links to Louw Nida. Does this mean there are no links to resources like BDAG, EDNT, WBC, etc?

Rick Brannan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253386#Comment_253386

Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

So what is the difference between these 3 interlinears and the forthcoming one? The pre-pub info says that there are links to Louw Nida. Does this mean there are no links to resources like BDAG, EDNT, WBC, etc?

Actually, Logos does not have interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot. There are Greek texts (one resource) with English translations (another resource) for each of Lake, Lightfoot and Holmes.

We have a reverse interlinear of Lake's edition of the Apostolic Fathers that is available in some packages (Platinum KF? I don't remember exactly). This is a reverse interlinear, with the English text of Lake as the top line, and the Greek aligned underneath it.

To my knowledge (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) there is no interlinear edition of the Apostolic Fathers -- an edition where the Greek is the top line, with English translations below. There is certainly no "Lexham style" interlinear, with Lexical Value glosses and English translation glosses for each word. And this is the first time I know of Louw-Nida annotation (Louw-Nida domain-article annotation) has been given to each instance of each Greek word in a corpus that is not the NT (like the Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testaments apply LN: http://www.logos.com/product/8569/lexham-greek-english-interlinear-new-testament-collection ).

The Greek text (that of Lake) is fully morphologically analyzed, with lemmas and morphology, so you can look up any Greek word in any lexicon (e.g. BDAG). If a work cites the Apostolic Fathers (e.g. WBC, EDNT, ICC, Anchor-Yale, TDNT, etc.) you can get to the interlinear through the reference.

Think: How does my Lexham NT Greek Interlinear work? This edition of the Apostolic Fathers Interlinear (http://bit.ly/ApFthInt) works the same way.

Eric Weiss

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110204#Comment_110204

Logos also has the Apostolic Fathers interlinears by Lake, Holmes and Lightfoot

The current offering isn't an interlinear: http://www.logos.com/product/3845/the-apostolic-fathers-in-english-and-greek-with-morphology

One can set it up as a diglot in two side-by-side-and-scrolling windows, or even up to a hexapla, since there are 3 Greek texts and 3 English texts, but even though the Greek is morphologically tagged, it's not able to be arranged/displayed interlinearly so as to have a one-to-one correspondence between the Greek text and and English gloss. Though I know Greek well enough that a diglot would be sufficient for me for much of the AFs, I ordered this Interlinear because it will make my reading and study of the AFs easier.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253408#Comment_253408

Rick .... are you sure you don't want to back the truck up? In the wiki, I listed out all the various interlinears (including the apostolic fathers): http://wiki.logos.com/Resource$3a_Apostolic_Fathers_–_Greek_Texts Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably). I've even run big chunks of them through my pattern software, comparing the sequences to NT, judaic, and LXX sequences to see the differences. That said, I'm in high anticipation of your new one.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253425#Comment_253425

Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably).

I think most people on this thread are equating "interlinear" to "Greek/English interlinear" (i.e., there is a translation or gloss line to be found). I know I do unless it's specifically stated otherwise.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253436#Comment_253436

Hmm ... let me see ... look to the left under the small image ... yep ... it's a 'star'. How am I not surprised.

Here's my question, Todd. Why was that so important to you? I'm talking about the put-down which this forum specializes in so much. You could argue, that you're simply clarifying for other viewers and that's certainly true. But we both know interlinears simply describe the format of how data is displayed. Interlinears are one aspect of Logos that I personally highly appreciate in comparison to Logos' competitors. That's why I am periodically critical of Logos marketing department, since they don't highlight all the advantages that many of Logos resources provide.

Whether an interlinear includes another language is certainly important, though George would probably applaud the absence of glosses. Yesterday in church I asked the pastor's wife if she had a Japanese interlinear ... my spouse had an english Bible in one hand, and a Japanese in the other.

But again, as I expressed in another thread yesterday, my impression is that the main function of 'star' members is to keep the fires burning. In this case, Rick invited comment ... I answered, since I think Logos.com could be more clear. And the 'star' forum member saw a great opportunity.

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253444#Comment_253444

But again, as I expressed in another thread yesterday, my impression is that the main function of 'star' members is to keep the fires burning. In this case, Rick invited comment ... I answered, since I think Logos.com could be more clear. And the 'star' forum member saw a great opportunity.

Denise, please forgive me for answering in Rick's stead. I'm sorry if it came across as a put down-- I was just hoping to clarify what I thought the disconnect was. If I hadn't had a star under my name, would it have come across differently? If so, maybe I'll ask to have it removed.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253460#Comment_253460

Todd ... I'm writing this smilingly (and I appreciate your reply). But Dave Hooton is the one who should loose his 'star'. He never seems to get emotional, his answers are to the point, and when you see a 'Hooton', you know it's best to read it (in addition to the Hootens of course ... that's you Bill). The problem with a 'star' is that there's some sort of expectation concerning the high road, at least for me. My apologies, if I over-interpreted.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253425#Comment_253425

Rick .... are you sure you don't want to back the truck up? In the wiki, I listed out all the various interlinears (including the apostolic fathers): http://wiki.logos.com/Resource$3a_Apostolic_Fathers_–_Greek_Texts Maybe you're using the word differently? The present Logos offerings don't have the english glosses, and there's 3 separate resources which you can purchase separately (i.e. affordably). I've even run big chunks of them through my pattern software, comparing the sequences to NT, judaic, and LXX sequences to see the differences. That said, I'm in high anticipation of your new one.

Hi Denise.

Thanks; I'm using "interlinear" equating with the inclusion of an English gloss; you're using it (probably) more properly since those texts do use the Logos interlinear functionality to display morph and lemma information under the respective Greek word.

Apologies for my confusion on how the term was being used. And thanks for your anticipation of my work, I hope it lives up to expectations.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/253478#Comment_253478

Woo Hoo!!!

It's out of the barn and onto the racetrack!