Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home
Dear Logos,
I am becomming concerned about how much and how often Logos4 "Phones Home", as a normal part of its operation.
Examples include:
1) Checking for updates
2) Syncing Page-Marks after every move, scroll, search, or operation
3) Syncing of Notes, Highlights, Passage Lists etc ...
4) Homepage News etc
5) Download error reporting as documented in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2
My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
I accept than all above features wont then work, buts thats OK by me. I will elect to enable Internet from time-to-time, but I want it to be my choice please.
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
I have seen others make comments with some of these views.
Bottom line: Please make "Use Internet" = NO do as it says. Thats all I need to be happy in this regard.
Comments
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The one thing you failed to provide in your post is what your concern is. What about "phoning home" causes your concern? As for the error reporting, do you have the same concern with respect to your operating system?The easiest solution for making all your software not phone home is to go with a modem on a phone line.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It might be interesting to note under the product tab on this web site the top 100 things of L4. Especially how central the role Logos computers play in backing up your licenses and files from a newspaper metaphor interface. I suspect that ultimately that the evolution of this product will be very much a total push technology where we would buy a subscription to a centralized "library" or sets of "libraries" (such as classical) that we can use from our own computer(s). We will really own nothing other than opportunities to access large databases of information. From this perspective there will be nothing private about using this software in that it will be (maybe) based on every changing interfaces and libraries on Logos computers...if you want to use it you will dial home for it so to speak.
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My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved. Hope this helps.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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The one thing you failed to provide in your post is what your concern is.
MJ, You just have to accept that this is important to me, and I am asking Logos for a formal reply to my concern here.
As for other programs, to the maximum extent possible, I disable all automated updates, usage feedback, quality-of-service reporting, and just about anything else I can turn off.
In some cases, I place a firewall block on the program if I can, or uninstall it, and use something else, or go without. Its MY COMPUTER and MY CALL on this mater.
In Logos, I want "Use Internet = NO" to do what it says, and NOT phone home. Its simple really.
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In Logos, I want "Use Internet = NO" to do what it says, and NOT phone home. Its simple really.
Hi Jim,
Have you tried my suggestion above? The feature you are requesting, is available in Logos 4 though via a different way.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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You just have to accept that this is important to me,
Sorry for prying - I was merely interested because I like to understand others' reactions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ted,
Thanks for the feedback. YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much concern for me, as they are manual choices. However, its the "creeping" that is the concern.
For example, the download error reporting in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2 phones home on an error. Again, this of itself, is not a big problem. If Logos4 is failing on a download, its because I am wanting to update something or get a new resource I have purchased. In that case, of course I want the resource updated, and any error fixed. And of course Logos knows who I am, and want I just purchased, and what I am attempting to download.
My concern is the "creep" and complete loss of control of when, how much, and what about is in that comms transfer.
Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
Repeat: Invented story above.
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Sorry for prying - I was merely interested because I like to understand others' reactions.
MJ,
Sorry if I came over stronger than I intended.
I am seeking for Logos to accept this as a matter of concern to some people. At least me, but I have seen it from others:
There are MANY forum posts where some are seeking both notification and control over what is downloaded. I have also see where Bob Pritchet said we cant have that. Its his company and product but I must disagree with him in that regard. I too want download control. But thats not the focus of my post here.
What we really need is to be able to have "Internet=ON or OFF", but "Sync=OFF" so we get updates, but my notes and usage never leaves my PC.
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Core interface technology of L4 seems to be an increasing integration of Logos based computers interacting with private computers. The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology. The price for increased bells, whistles, and pretty technology maybe a theoretical problem called privacy. If one wants to understand corporate benevolence try to sell your license.
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The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology.
Thanks for your comments.
If I could elect to NOT sync my personal content to Logos, then I would not need to consider if I trust them or not. Also, for the invented example I gave above, its something to not share with someone not matter how much I trust them. If its not their story, I can't tell them, no matter what.
"I'm going to tell you a secret, but please dont tell anyone OK. I'm telling you because I trust you"
Sadly, that model fails at some point. We are called to a higher standard sometimes. Don't tell anyone, no matter what!
P.S. Logos is in fact a great model of a company that one can trust, and YES, you can sell and transfer your Logos license. Really: They are a great company. But this is NOT what my original post is about.
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Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
I am one of those Jim, who have raised this and value my private data.
I wouldn't put any plain text into any PC/ElectronicGizmo "with the ability to cause harm to a third party" even if it had no internet connection
Should you decide to, then I can only suggest you adopt a personal cyper, as once coded ( only you know about your code) you could put "Spoke to Bob Smith about his "Lifestyle Choices", if anyone gained access they would be clueless as to what exactly you mean.. and if thats not enough could be recorded as some other innocuous thing: "Ice Cream Cravings","Fishing Tackle","Train Set","Painting" or whatever , but likewise only you know the REAL decode key.
If its that private, I personally would not be recording it except in a private paper journal, and even there if its really sensitive it would be coded..
However, having had a harddrive die on me, the fact I am was able to get back up-to-date data immediately when reinstalling was a great benefit, it is also very helpful especially when you travel.
The sad reality is the danger is more likely to come from your local data, someone you know who also knows Bob Smith, accessing your PC when you walk away leaving it unprotected (to get your coffee, restroom, wc, etc), rather than the Logos (server) end
Whilst I also agree NO should mean NO, have come round to seeing the benefits of the cloud.. especially when mobile..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much
Jim,
I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF. If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you. (Note that you have to restart Logos when changing that setting for it to take effect.)
Mark
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you.
Mark,
With "Internet=OFF", if you do any of the following:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)
At one level, its not too unexpected that (1) or (2) might still override the OFF setting, my prefered result would be a silent "do nothing / NOP" or a small dialog or status about command not processed due to no internet access. Just as the auto-syncing puts a small yellow alert symbol in the top right if there really is no internet at all.My concern is NOT with the specific (1), (2) and (3) above, but rather that the Logos4 application does NOT respect the OFF switch.
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I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF.
Mark,
Thanks for mentioning that you verified that the Logos Internet traffic can be entirely stopped. I use VoIP with GoToMeeting and my upload Internet connection speed just meets their recommended minimum of 384 kbps. Since I don't have any headroom, I'm concerned about stopping any unnecessary internet traffic. Before using VoIP, I turn the internet off in Logos and and turn off auto updates and notifications in Windows XP and Outlook.
What is the software you use to intercept (can it also monitor?) Internet access? I have many applications installed and like to see if they access the internet.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)Why would you run the commands if you didn't want to over-ride your global Internet setting? It's unlikely that you could run these commands by accident.
I agree that the Home Page should be restricted from using the internet if that setting is off, if an homepage can't be generated without Internet then a message to that effect should be displayed. As a work-around you can change the top bible on your priority list and that will do the same as using the tool on the home page.
Prov. 15:23
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JIm it really doesn't matter if we perceive Logos to be a great company or not even with a good reputation. What matters, I would argue, is the product on each of our hard drives and what it does now and what it is likely to do in the future. To note that a consumer has privacy issues with software that has core push technology and increasing integration of such technology is to argue how much privacy the end user has....which addresses directly the original post imo. Its sort of like asking your mom for the keys to the family car then complaining that she always know where were going to.
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Kevin,
My point about "Update Now" is NOT about why I would make a request when I don't want it to phone home.
The point is that Logos4 does NOT respect the OFF switch.
As for preferred Bible, I change it offen. At present, I tend to prefer to use ESV for Intelinear stuff, but NIV as the one I most remember, so like for reading. So I swap back and forward often.
(It would be nice if I could use "Set default bible to ESV" or "Set default bible to NIV" and make two command buttons, but this thread is not about this topic.)
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What is the software you use to intercept (can it also monitor?) Internet access? I have many applications installed and like to see if they access the internet.
For Logos I use Fiddler2. It allows me not just to monitor whether Logos is sending data, but also what it is sending/receiving. This will also work for any other applications that respect proxy settings. There are simpler programs available if you just want to monitor whether an application is sending data. Your firewall software, for example, may do this already.
I'm not at home right now, but when I get home I'll check whether Logos is really respecting Internet=NO. Initial tests seem to confirm that it is, however (despite appearances, admittedly).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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There NEEDS to be a way to absolutely tell Logos not to use the internet at all. Missionaries in closed countries may set Internet Use to No and think that their computer won't be connecting. One of my best friends is in a closed country where he can't have his computer connecting to Logos when he connects to the web.
Logos, for the safety of those risking their lives for the gospel, please make sure that when internet=No it does not use the internet at all (or confirm for us that this is the case)
Plea
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
If I had very personal counseling/prayer records on my computer I would use something very simple, like Notepad to keep them. I would not put those type of records/data in Logos anymore than I would put them in Facebook.....but, that's just my opinion....
I use Logos for Bible study only...I have separate areas where I keep my prayer lists....
Chuck
Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
- 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
Iphone5s Logos 7, Bronze0 -
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
This seems like a reasonable solution. If I had privacy concerns in my use of any program, I would pursue this route (especially in the case of missionaries in closed countries). Even if Logos said that the Use Internet switch shut of all network access, it's a prudent decision to have a second layer of security in the firewall. Plus it would give you more fine-grained control than I suspect Logos would considered implementing themselves (for simplicity's sake).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
I had never considered this as a concern because I do not use Logos in this way but it has made me think about how important the privacy of my data is.
I'm also now wondering about the legal implications with reference to the UK's Data Protection laws for anyone who uses the prayer lists... There are restrictions on how and where data is stored this might be a real can of worms as what you can and can not store in synchronised files could depend on what country you are in!
Logos may have to allow control of synchronisation on a file by file level so that we can use the files and comply with local laws.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Sadly, that model fails at some point. We are called to a higher standard sometimes. Don't tell anyone, no matter what!
P.S. Logos is in fact a great model of a company that one can trust, and YES, you can sell and transfer your Logos license. Really: They are a great company. But this is NOT what my original post is about.
Jim, Although many may think your concerns extreme, they are still valid concerns if you happen to be a Pastor using your Logos software to help counsel -per your fictional example. Logos does go further than many banking institutions in securing your privacy. I also believe Logos employees are, on the whole, trustworthy. But it only takes one failure in the wall of security to facilitate a loss. Other corporations have lost millions of private records in one security breach. But realistically any thieves or snoopers will be looking for a way of financial gain and most juicy gossip is worthless unless it can be used for blackmail purposes. This would not lessen the pain from loss of trust and privacy. So for total security you either need to avoid synching at all (unreasonable due to the software design) or avoid putting any personal identifiable information in your notes(difficult.)
Check out this for a little reassurance about Logos security: http://www.logos.com/about/sitesecurity
And your privacy: http://www.logos.com/about/privacyLogos 7 Collectors Edition
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Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
I had never considered this as a concern because I do not use Logos in this way but it has made me think about how important the privacy of my data is.
I'm also now wondering about the legal implications with reference to the UK's Data Protection laws for anyone who uses the prayer lists... There are restrictions on how and where data is stored this might be a real can of worms as what you can and can not store in synchronised files could depend on what country you are in!
Logos may have to allow control of synchronisation on a file by file level so that we can use the files and comply with local laws.
People who are concerned about security should always carefully read the EULA that comes with virtually every piece of software you can get (free or paid for). If the level of privacy/security is not what you want, either pursue the matter with the company or don't use the software. Period. Logos has been quite open about how it uses our data. We users should exercise responsibility in how we use this (or any other) program. I agree that Logos4 is not a good place to store any confidential information.
BTW, the Logos EULA is quite short and simple. Here's the part on online backup:
ONLINE BACKUP
Data
you enter into the Software, including notes, settings, preferences, and
documents, will be automatically backed up to Logos.com over the
Internet, and downloaded to other instances of the Software logged in
using your email and password. This automatic synchronization helps you
access your content on multiple computers and may be used to let you use
your own data online. Logos will not share your data without your
permission, but may examine it programmatically for anonymous
statistical purposes or in order to provide technical support.DO NOT
STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE. The Software is
designed for consumer reference and study purposes, and while we will
take all precautions to protect your data, we cannot ensure the level of
security you would expect from online banking or other highly secure
services.You are
responsible to keep the password associated with your Logos.com login
private. It is the primary means of security for data synchronized
through the Software.Notice the ALL-CAP section telling us not to store highly confidential information in the software. That's our responsibility. Not Logos'.
While we may request additional security measures that would make our lives simpler, it seems patently obvious to me, that it is our responsibility to use the software appropriately within its design constraints, until such time as those constraints may change.
For this and other reasons, I don't use Logos' prayer list, nor would I store any information that may harm a brother or sister (even potentially) on my computer unless I had the ability to encrypt the file with a password. I do not consider any level of security below password-protected encryption to be high enough for a responsibile level of pastoral confidentiality.
Imagine a friend, or family member, using your computer, and Logos4 for some purpose and stumbling upon your confidential information. Even if Logos didn't sync the info, it's still not confidential, if its available to anyone who might borrow your copy of Logos for a quick look-up, or a demo, let alone an office snoop, or the like.
My point is that confidentiality is primarily a user issue.
I have no personal concerns about my privacy and the way Logos uses my information, and consider the two issues separate. Privacy=protecting my personal information; Confidentiality=protecting the information entrusted to me by/about another.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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If I had very personal counseling/prayer records on my computer I would use something very simple, like Notepad to keep them. I would not put those type of records/data in Logos anymore than I would put them in Facebook.....but, that's just my opinion....
<rant>I watch these threads with some amount of astonishment at the total lack of understanding about the meaning and importance of privacy in our lives. I suspect this is going to hit home at some point in the future, but it's going to take a lot more than a few lectures on a board to convince people just how important this stuff is. It would be a good exercise for every pastor on this board to read a good security blog on a regular basis--for instance, Bruce Schneier.</rant>
Now, let me point out a specific answer to the suggestion above--just don't keep private data in the software. Let me ask--what, specifically, do you classify as "private data?" Did you include the metadata as well as the data? Let me throw out an example. You're the pastor of a large church. Someone sees Sally walk into your office. An hour later, she walks out with tear stains running down her face. This person contacts someone else, who happens to, somehow, have access to your logos layout snapshot. Looking at these, they find the verses you've referenced during Sally's visit all relate to adultery.
So what's private about when Sally walks into and out of your office? And what's private about what you looked up in your Bible software? This is the slippery slope of metadata. And this is where google, for instance, makes their living; collecting metadata about you, and turning it into actionable information.
Ah, but Logos would never release such information. Which is just saying that we have to trust Logos, which is just saying we have to trust people.
Ah, but no-one would ever go to this sort of trouble to find something out. Really? If you think this, you totally underestimate the level of evil resident in human beings.
Look, folks, I know most of you won't take this seriously. I know most people think, "if I've done nothing wrong, I've nothing to hide." Great, but remember that hiding doesn't always have to do with "doing something wrong." Or those who say, "I'm willing to die for my faith." Great, but are you willing to live for your faith, even if it means hiding your faith so you can reach and teach others?
Let's not poo-poo these privacy concerns.
Russ
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With "Internet=OFF", if you do any of the following:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)
...My concern is NOT with the specific (1), (2) and (3) above, but rather that the Logos4 application does NOT respect the OFF switch.
When I read this, what I see is that you're concerned that Logos 4 doesn't respect the off switch when you tell it to not respect the off switch. Fundamentally, that's what those commands are: instructions to the program to disregard your internet setting and override it on the basis of your own user authority.
As others have said, your idea of blocking Logos in the firewall is probably the best idea. Considering your concerns about privacy, I'm surprised you haven't already. It would have been a good secondary precaution.'
Another option would be to disconnect from the internet right before you open the program and select the "work offline" option at login and then reconnect. But that would be a bit of a hassle...
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For this and other reasons, I don't use Logos' prayer list
I suspect most of us who know enough about computers know about the importance of care in storing data, the only information anyone will get if they hack into my synchronised files will be ideas and thoughts and as I'm not planning a major book and I'm also not sure how original they are the risk for me is pretty low.
There is however a contradiction between an EULA that says:
DO NOT
STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWAREAnd a software package that includes a prayer list.
I don't think that it would be unreasonable to assume that a lot of Pastors could miss the statement in the EULA and fall into the 'trap' that Jim has described.
My point is that confidentiality is primarily a user issue.
Which is why I don't let anyone use my personal user on my personal PC because when all is said and done the biggest risk for anything confidential that I store on my PC is it falling into the hands of someone who can make sense of it and the reality is that someone who knows me is more likely to make sense of it than someone in Bellingham!
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Privacy seems like a primary concern for me, and perhaps others, in a software world that seems to think at times that my computer is a smart terminal for their software. One issue that may need to be addressed is the increasing integration of my computer (and interface) with their own servers as part of the core architecture of this software. What next in L5 an AI that "helps" me to choose the right tools to do "proper" exegesis and reports the results back to the great brain at Logos.
I hesitate to purchase any further upgrades as this smart terminal architecture seems to be evolving for many reasons including privacy. I'm a human out here not a profit unit for a marketing campaign for the next generation of Logos enhanced and totally different interface. Privacy is a key issue in the Western context just because we are alive and breath...and thats good enough I think.
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Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved.
Call me confused by this thread! When i have done the above "ADU" & "UI", it stops all internet traffic. I even get the option to select work offline when i start up . I am surprised that some are suggesting this is not the case. Or perhaps i am not understanding the issue as i ought to. So the "work offline" does not work but it seems to work for me.
Ted
Edit: Posted before i saw Mike Aubrey's comment above.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Someone sees Sally walk into your office. An hour later, she walks out with tear stains running down her face.
This could cause enough problems without any help from Logos...
Ah, but Logos would never release such information. Which is just saying that we have to trust Logos, which is just saying we have to trust people.
The whole trust thing really breaks down when you consider that we have to trust in the ability of those who own and manage Logos to ensure that everyone they employ, who has access to our material can be trusted which means that its not just about trusting people its about trusting peoples ability to assess whether other people can be trusted.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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