Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home
Comments
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JimT said:Matthew C Jones said:
A persuasive legal argument can be made that your "warning" to unsavy users who may follow your directions and suffer harm is not adequate and Logos is "negligent" for allowing the instructions to remain on the website. Are you trying to set Logos up for lawsuits or challenge them to protect forum readers from irresponsible advice?
OK - I give up.
Don't do anything I say, the risk is too high.
It's not irresponsible advice. The officially recommended way of going offline is to set "Use Internet" to "No". That will stop data synchronization and update downloads and whatever else. It will stop data backup from occurring.
The unsupported way talked about here is to use a firewall to block a subset of the communications that "Use Internet = No" will block (The hostname to block is sync.logos.com). This too will block data synchronization and data backup. So for those items it is no different that setting "Use Internet" to "No". But it will allow Logos4 to connect to other backend services such as resource updates, program updates and metadata updates. Another benefit to using firewall blocking is the constant visual reminder that your data isn't being sync'd or backed up: the sync arrows turn into a yellow caution sign when the sync fails:
Note that setting "Use Internet" to "No" lacks this visual
feedback that syncing has stopped. It's happened several times on the forum where someone has forgotten they set it to "No". The sync arrows are gone when "Use Internet" is "No", but there is no caution sign telling you that data isn't being backed up:
So, all in all, I think that firewall blocking is a better solution than turning off all internet for those who are concerned about their data (not me, of course, I like the backup [Y]), plus it has no practical downfalls.
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Thanks for posting this... I'm trying to figure out how to use Onenote effectively (the main problems are the two hop link, which is a pain, and the lack of seeing your notes when you hover), but I'll still recommend to those who are concerned about their privacy to use their firewalls to block this traffic.
Russ
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Not to bring a 'dead horse' back to life, but after all the discussion back in April/May concerning privacy concerns, I'd concluded that the setting 'Use Internet' = NO and 'Automatically Download Updates' = NO and 'Send Feedback' = NONE would mean no internet traffic back to Logos (absent a manual update). But recently I've noticed L4 happpily autoomatically connecting to Logos with these settings. I know Bob's famous quote 'If you care enough that you want to know which algorithms, etc. then you're probably wiser to just disconnect your computer from the Internet physically. ' is pretty much the bottom line for Logos & Co. But I'd been comfortable with these settings until now. Luckily I can also set my virus protector to block Logos (which I've done), but it just seems like courtesy would dictate otherwise. I have 4.0d SR2. Do the settings actually work?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise Barnhart said:
Do the settings actually work?
They should do, unless you hold CTRL when you load Logos (in which case you're able to override them).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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So far my solution is to simply remove my data from Logos, and put it into a piece of software that allows me both to encrypt the data I sync onto a cloud server and to specifically choose which data to sync. That cripples the functionality of Logos, so I'm not getting all the value I can from my roughly $5k or more investment, but, well, Logos has decided that they either can't code this functionality, or can't support it.
I, personally, would gladly rebuy all the resources I have in another piece of software if I could actually use the software as designed and still keep my privacy.I understand a lot of folk here are willing to sell their privacy for money, counting privacy to be of little value, but you should hear the gasps when I start showing the high school kids in my networking class what someone can figure out about you with what you put online every day.
For anyone who's said, on this board, that privacy just isn't important, I hear they have a perfect new piece of software that will tweet your location from the GPS embedded on your phone every minute or so. How convenient would that be? Your spouse and kids can just follow your tweets to figure out where you are at any given time! If you are ever injured, or attacked, think about how fast someone could find out where you are, and come to your aid! What a wonderful idea, right?
As Logos is the only game in town resource wise, I just have to live with crippled software because I value my privacy. But don't let me stand in the way of "progress."
Russ
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Denise Barnhart said:
Do the settings actually work?
This is how I have L4 setup, and the only time I have noticed that it called home was when I told it to check for updates.
FYI... With the exception of notes, I too have stopped storing my data in L4. If you ask me, It is sad that we must use a crippled L4 because Logos does not value our privacy.
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I guess everyone's mileage varies, but, for me, the disabling of Logos's Internet features doesn't 'cripple' it. It restricts it, sure, but my main purpose for using it - Bible study, remains relatively unaffected. Logos4 in that scenario, for me, is at about the same level of effectiveness as Logos3. But with a much nicer interface.
Actually, my current strategy is to:
- Let Logos have Internet access
- Not allow it to auto-update - it lets me know when they are available but I choose when it updates
- I do not use Notes or Prayer lists or allow Logos to send report of how I use it. I only highlight things that would never embarrass me if other people knew what I had highlighed
These 'restrictions' are offset by the fact that I use Logos (3 & 4) 99% of the time for Greek studies, comparing translations etc, so it's more 'academic' than 'personal'. Also, now that the COM API is getting more usable (in the current Beta at least) I am able to write a pretty decent Notes system of my own that uses Logos but is not tied into Logos. And yes, that involves writing my own Word Processor. But I'm a programmer and actually enjoy doing these things[H]
That doesn't mean that I think Logos's current strategy is 'right', 'best' or even 'good'. Far from it. But I have found a way, for me, that ignores the bits I don't like and still allows me to use the bits that I do like. But I have the advantage of literally being able to 'code around' the deficiencies this strategy causes.
When my program is 'finished' (as if programs are ever really finished) it is my intention to make it freely available... But my secular work is busy at the moment, so I can't say when that might be...
Andy
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Denise Barnhart said:
Not to bring a 'dead horse' back to life, but
You raised the dead without even trying! [6]
I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will necessarily follow your post. But I just have to ask, if all the privacy advocates have so diligently and craftily been able to "fix" the Logos phone home issue, why must everyone keep calling the software "crippled?" My automobile will not fly like Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang, but I won't call it "crippled."
I'm glad to be FLYING HIGH with Logos4 but sad others are grounded.[:(]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ok, put the dead horse back in the ground. I figured out the problem. Logos responds to turning ON the internet session without leaving. But turning it OFF seems to require exiting the program. Since L4 is not exactly the young whippersnapper of software, I rarely exit the program. I'm no privacy addict, but I did spend many years in high-end data mining and was a speaker at various conferences. And so just as good manners, I sort of expect software to not demand intrusiveness, no matter 'the world is changing'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Andy Bell said:
Also, now that the COM API is getting more usable (in the current Beta at least) I am able to write a pretty decent Notes system of my own that uses Logos but is not tied into Logos. And yes, that involves writing my own Word Processor. But I'm a programmer and actually enjoy doing these things
Andy Bell said:When my program is 'finished' (as if programs
are ever really finished) it is my intention to make it freely
available... But my secular work is busy at the moment, so I can't say when that might be...I am sure there will be some interest in this when you get it 'done' (ie. to the point where you feel comfortable sharing it)... but take your time appreciate it is a labour of love.
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I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will
necessarily follow your post. But I just have to ask, if all the privacy
advocates have so diligently and craftily been able to "fix" the Logos
phone home issue, why must everyone keep calling the software
"crippled?" My automobile will not fly like Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang,
but I won't call it "crippled."It seems simple to me.
1. Logos sells a piece of software that does X, Y, and Z. These features are integrated in a way that makes them easy to use together, and, in fact, are designed to work work together.
2. Logos refuses to provide any sort of privacy for function Z.
3. When you ask why Logos won't provide any privacy for function Z, they simply say, "don't keep your data in the software." This effectively disables function Z, forcing you to do this function outside Logos itself.
4. Since function Z was designed as part of the original software, and is tightly integrated into the software --in fact, this is one of the selling points for the software itself-- the software doesn't work as advertised without this function.
5. Hence, the software is crippled.
Let me put it another way --suppose MS Word were designed to be able to save off addresses in an address book so you don't have the type the addresses you use into documents all the time. You discover that MS Word, in fact, places any addresses you put into the software onto a common server that's not encrypted or in protected in any other way. You're a bit concerned about this, so you ask --can I please have a local address book? MS' answer is, "No, just don't keep your address book in our software." So, because you consider your address book private, you must keep your address book in another piece of software, and copy/paste into Word whenever you want to use it. Because of this you lose the ability to use address shortcuts, styling of addresses, and a slew of other features --in fact, features you originally shelled out money for.
Now, is the software "crippled?"
Yes.
Logos is crippled in the same way. The company sells their software with the ability to store notes and prayer lists. These features are tightly integrated into the software itself, allowing you to do things you can't do if you store your notes and prayer lists outside the software itself. Some people consider these things private, so they are concerned about placing this information onto a common server with absolutely no security. When users asks Logos to solve this problem, their answer is, "No, we will not allow you to selectively synchronize YOUR data, and we WILL NOT allow you to encrypt YOUR data, so you only have two choices --live without those features, which you paid money for, or put up with YOUR data, which you're creating, and which you consider private, being placed on our servers, even though we REFUSE to take ANY responsibility for maintaining the privacy of YOUR data."
I'll say right now that answering, "well, it's not really private data," is a copout, pure and simple. It's not up to YOU, or to Logos, or to anyone else on this board, to determine what I consider private. If I want to keep the color of my dog a secret, that's my choice, not yours, or Logos'.
So, Logos IS crippled in its current state. OneNote, Evernote, and many other products allow you to both selectively choose what to synchronize, and also to encrypt your data when it's on the cloud service.The other alternate would be for Logos to realize they're making users upset with this nonsense --selling one thing, and actually providing another-- and that it's actually unethical to treat user's data in this way, and provide stronger links into an outside note taking package that WILL provide the features users actually want.
I strongly suspect Logos won't do this because while they don't want to be responsible for your data, they also want to lock you in to their software in as many ways as possible. If all your research notes from the last x number of years is in Logos, you're not about to switch software vendors even if another, possibly better, package comes out. I understand the attempt at lock-in --all software companies do this-- but then give us the features we need to protect our data, even if it's in your format.
It all seems pretty cut and dry to me.
1. Logos promises specific features.
2. I cannot use those features even though I paid for them because of Logos' policies.
3. Logos refuses to respect the level of protection for my data that I consider appropriate.
4. Logos refuses to provide another option for me to use.Russ
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Matthew C Jones said:
I'll take a general pass on all the repetitive posts that will necessarily follow your post
Sometimes it would be better if MVP's did this more often. The majority of times they have a lot of good to say ... but sometimes...the should just [:#], particularly if they can't respond to a customer's concerns without trying to make the customer feel wrong for even sharing their feedback , or commenting in a way that makes their feedback seem irrelevant - remember MVP's: All customers of Logos pay to license this software and should be able to express their feedback They should be able to do this on the forums without having an MVP tell them their view is wrong and or irrelevant, and always keep in mind point 3 of the guidelines, particularly if you have to explain how their understanding of how the software actually works is incorrect. But don't mix that up with your personal philosophy on how it should work.
Matthew C Jones said:why must everyone keep calling the software "crippled?"
Why, because its a case of all to be sync or none to be sync. Speaking hypothetically if I wanted to have my layouts sync'd with Logos server but not my notes, then well I can't. So if that was how I wished to manage MY user created content in Logos 4, well I just couldn't and so in terms of the software functionally I would called it 'crippled'.
Your response is indicating to me you are positioning yourself as the 'stronger brother in this case'. Whether an MVP' or ordinary forum member, if we find ourselves thinking like i.e. our view of how the software should work is just so right and the other person is just so wrong, cause they don't line up with my personal view... then we need to reflect upon what the apostle Paul shared about this sort of situation before putting finger to keyboard.
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Dave Hooton said:
When Logos fixes this issue, and stops telling me what I should consider "private data," and what I shouldn't, I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my decision about what's private or not, then I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my ability to actually use the software as advertised, then I'll "zip it."
In the mean time, I don't think I will "zip it," thank you very much.
Russ
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Russ White said:
When Logos fixes this issue, and stops telling me what I should consider "private data," and what I shouldn't, I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my decision about what's private or not, then I'll "zip it." When Logos stops telling me their technical support costs are more important than my ability to actually use the software as advertised, then I'll "zip it."
In the mean time, I don't think I will "zip it," thank you very much.
Russ
SAME HERE!!!
In these regards, the current Logos4 application is BROKEN, in my view!!!
I continue to wish and hope that Bob will change his mind, and let us decide what we can Sync to the Cloud or not.
Until then, a number of its features are not fully useful to me, and there are better applications for Notes and other things.
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Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dave Hooton said:Andrew McKenzie said:
The majority of times they have a lot of good to say ... but sometimes...they should just
, Dave I had no idea what you were trying to say or who you were really directing it at... but it's had the opposite effect.... kind of like Test: Disregard or Stay of the Grass. By taking my quote out of its full context its left the door open for this issue to continue with great angst and upset ... and that's what has happened.
I
Russ White said:
Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now, but I've seen this sort of thing happen enough that I could no longer let it pass without comment and so some of my responses to MVP's over the last couple of days.Russ I am sorry you are getting this attitude from some on these forums. 99.9999999% of the time MVP's are very helpful, thoughtful and committed to they way in which they respond to Logos customers. Like all of us they have their own priorities, ranking of importance and relevance of issues. And like them we all make the mistake at some time in our live of trying to impose what's important to us upon others.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
MVP's responding to customers.
I chose to ignore the repetition of this issue because it has been addressed (nicely) by MVPs, Logos employees, Bob Pritchett (owner, CEO & creator of the software) and many helpful non-MVPs. If you go back and read the 200+ posts of this thread and the redundant posts in other carbon-copy threads, you will see the privacy advocates have been answered, just not with the answer they wanted.
It is not as though they haven't been heard. They have been.
It is not as though they haven't been understood. They have been.
It is not as though they have not been answered. They have been.
The Logos4 software is not "broken". The creator of the program has spoken. I don't question creators when they tell me it does what they designed it to do. Logos is the closest thing to perfection in the history of Bible study software and it gets better with age.My only comment to the zombie horse I see walking around is, "Logos is not crippled or broken." [8-)]
clarification: "zombie horse" = the resurrected proverbial dead horse issue, not a person or persons posting. Kinda like a Gilligan's Island re-run.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Andrew McKenzie said:
they should just
Dave Hooton said:Can we all now do likewise!
Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now
Your call to "zip it" was not offensive to me as an MVP but my remark was addressed to "all". The comments in this thread are a matter of record; they cannot be undone nor will they go unnoticed! I felt that further comments were likely to become personal and detract from the opinions already expressed, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with them.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:Andrew McKenzie said:
they should just
Dave Hooton said:Can we all now do likewise!
Dave, despite my confusion at your post, I left it alone because I had said all I wanted to say on the issue of MVP's responding to customers. I was saddened that I even had to contemplate responding the way I did, even as I think about it now
Your call to "zip it" was not offensive to me as an MVP but my remark was addressed to "all". The comments in this thread are a matter of record; they cannot be undone nor will they go unnoticed! I felt that further comments were likely to become personal and detract from the opinions already expressed, irrespective of whether I agree or disagree with them.
Thanks for clarifying Dave.
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Solution to the problem...other pieces of software.
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Matthew C Jones said:
The Logos4 software is not "broken". The creator of the program has spoken. I don't question creators when they tell me it does what they designed it to do. Logos is the closest thing to perfection in the history of Bible study software and it gets better with age.
"When I bought this car, the advertising stated that I would be able to listen to the radio while driving."
"You can, as long as it's a country station."
"That's broken."
"No, it's not, the car's creator has spoken, and that's the way it is. Since it was designed that way, it's not broken."
"I don't agree."
"Then buy someone else's car."
"You have me locked in because it's the only car that works on these roads. But that's not what I want anyway, I want the car to be better, to satisfy a larger range of people."
"The creator likes country music, and doesn't want anyone else to listen to anything else! If you want to listen to something else, then tape another radio to the dashboard. Besides, people who listen to country music would complain if they can't find a country station if he were to change it, and that would drive his support costs up."
"That's insane. It'll be ugly, and the steering wheel controls won't work with a radio taped to the dashboard."
"Sorry, the creator of the car has spoken."Somewhere along the line this entire conversation has become surreal. The developer of the software doesn't determine what's "broken" and what's not. You wouldn't accept that from anyone else in your life --not your plumber telling you that leaking pipe that floods your kitchen is normal, not your electrician telling you that mild shock you receive when turning on the lights is designed to wake you up, etc.
The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing. It smacks of a company that really doesn't care about their customers, or "cares so much" they're going to tell us what's right and wrong.
I'll say this: I had planned on dumping about $3k into Logos product within the next 15 days. My plan was to give my seminary three or four copies of Logos Silver to use as they wanted to, either for professors, or to give to students through some means. That's gone.
My next step is to kill all my prepubs, sitting at around $1.5k right now, and then to start telling people not to buy Logos. Since I've sold at least three copies in the last 6 months, and was working on selling about three or four more, it's getting into the $10k range a year very quickly.
Oh, and that demo I had been lining up the 5k member church I belong to, and the three or four 5k member churches in the area, along with all those possible sales? I'm calling that off, too. I'm going to stop bugging my pastor about it, trying to convince them that we really need to get the logistics done. Instead, I'm going to tell him I won't work with a company this arrogant.
I will not work with a company that tells me they will only sell software that works completely when I put my data in their format in their software, that I cannot control what they do with that data, and that they will not be held responsible for the privacy or final resting place of that data, nor even what it's used for. Nor will I work with a company that says, "tough luck, the creator has spoken, so just zip it." I refuse to spend money with a company where the president looks down
his nose at me, and tells me that my request is wrong because it will
cost him money. Of course it will cost him money --it costs me money to
buy his software. Bob: You've just lost $3k in direct sales, and an untold amount of indirect sales, because of the
attitude I see on display here.Now, do you really want me to get upset? Do you want me to start using facebook and blogs to bring this issue to people's attention?
"The creator has spoken." What an attitude.
Russ
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Russ,
For the most part, I agree with you. As someone who is also passion about this issue, I added an entry out to uservoice.com. Bob at first close my suggestion by stating all you have to do is to change a couple of settings. A couple of us were upset with this, and Bob reopen my suggestion. Now it sits at #10 on uservoice. I do believe that Bob will change this is we keep this concern on the front burner. This does mean that we will receive some flack, but I am happy to receive this flack if the end result is a better program for all of to use.
I do agree with you that we also need to speak by using our wallets. I have canceled the prepubs that I had on order when they were about to be shipped. I have also told my colleges on my seminary campus of my concerns with this program as is, and far as I know no one has purchased L4.
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I've not yet gotten to the point of canceling prepubs, but I'm getting there. What I'll probably do is cancel them as they come up, in the hopes that Bob turns this entire situation around with a small and simple feature that lets you select which files to sync and which not to.
I'm trying to balance here between burning bridges with a company I think makes useful software and trying to get that same company to see that this lack of concern for user privacy is completely wrong in this day and age. That they don't want to be on the wrong side of user backlash when the pendulum starts to swing back to privacy in the coming years, as much as they might believe it won't.
:-)
Russ
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Russ White said:
"The creator has spoken." What an
attitude.You seem to be confused whose attitude that is. Let me own it once more.
I do not speak for Logos, Bob Pritchett or any of
the other MVPs.. It is just my point of view and whether it is palatable to
anyone or no one, it is just as valid of an individual opinion as yours, If you read all my posts on this issue you would notice my views have moved
closer to your camp by JimT's and Andy Bell's able posts. But convincing me 100%
still won't effect any change. Logos is "not my baby." -- as Bob Pritchett put
it in his book "Fire Someone Today!" And if Bob does decide to deliver what you ask for, all the protest in the world couldn't stop him. It is "his baby", you see. (And as imperfect as a baby may behave, the last thing a parent wants is for somebody else to cast insults and threats towards their baby.)Russ White said:The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing.
Psalm 2:1-12: (pick your version, pick your theology)
Russ White said:I had planned on dumping about $3k
Russ White said:My next step is to kill all
Russ White said:Oh, and that demo I had been lining up
Russ White said:I will not work
Russ White said:Now, do you really want me to get upset?
From my days in collective bargaining I can attest the "could-a, would-a, should-a" technique never succeeds. If you build some goodwill with the other party, they are more apt to turn a receptive ear when you present your list of demands concerns. For bargaining to be productive both sides need a commonality of interest. By attacking Logos ("crippled", "broken") or threatening them (see the post I am replying to) you are only self-inflicting wounds. That is if you share a common interest with Bob.
You don't need to convince me. I'm a nobody when it comes to power or influence. I'm so flawed I would grant your request just to move on. I say "The creator has spoken." because that is the way I have peace with reality I don't determine. Now if we appeal to the authority (Bob) we stand a better chance securing change. Let's put away the axes. Your concerns deserve better bargaining than they are currently getting.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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[quote]From my days in collective bargaining I can attest the "could-a,
would-a, should-a" technique never succeeds. If you build some goodwill
with the other party, they are more apt to turn a receptive ear when you
present your list of demands
concerns. For bargaining to be productive both sides need a commonality
of interest. By attacking Logos ("crippled", "broken") or threatening
them (see the post I am replying to) you are only self-inflicting
wounds. That is if you share a common interest with Bob. You don't need to convince me. I'm a nobody when it comes to power or
influence. I'm so flawed I would grant your request just to move on. I
say "The creator has spoken." because that is the way I have peace with
reality I don't determine. Now if we appeal to the authority (Bob) we
stand a better chance securing change. Let's put away the axes. Your
concerns deserve better bargaining than they are currently getting.1. It is perfectly reasonable to attempt to reason from logic first, then pull business second. This idea that you should never stop spending money at a business because they won't respect your privacy, or because they don't provide what you want/need, because "spending money gives you more bargaining power," is nonsense.
2. A threat is saying you will do something. I'm not saying, I'm doing. I have just pulled the plug on spending $3k with Logos I had intended to spend. That's not a threat, that's done. I'm not threatening to pull the plug on a demo at my church --I'll just stop pushing for it, today and ongoing. Since no-one else seems interested in getting a demo together, that effectively shuts it down.
3. You have a star under your name, and you're the one telling everyone to just stop talking about it. That star, whether or not you like it, means you were chosen by Logos to speak for Logos, in some sense. You were chosen by Logos as the "first line of support" in these forums.
Russ
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In so far as it applies to this thread in part please see Bob's post here:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/23243/173181.aspx#173181
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Russ White said:
3. You have a star under your name, and you're the one telling everyone to just stop talking about it. That star, whether or not you like it, means you were chosen by Logos to speak for Logos, in some sense. You were chosen by Logos as the "first line of support" in these forums.
I said I would pass on addressing the issues raised because nothing new has been added to the debate and all issues have been addressed by the one who holds the legitimate authority to pass judgment on them. I never told anyone to quit talking.
(Andrew McKenzie said "zip it" and I think he was talking to me, not your side of the issue.)
(Dave Hooton suggested "all" zip it, and wisely refused to jump in the mud.)Yes. My time would be better spent offering help to new posters.
(There are so many new Logos users since L4 was released. [H] )
Thanks for helping me re-focus. [;)]Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said: I'm glad to be FLYING HIGH with Logos4 but sad others are grounded.
I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here![:D]
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Nina Jones said:
I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here!
Newbie !
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I just want to clarify my position, as my name recently was mentioned by Matthew:
I think Logos4's entire Internet strategy and its implementation of that strategy is flawed. Flawed. Not broken.
My viewpoint is based on these observations:
- Logos/Bob thinks 'the cloud is the future'. I think this is an overstatement and I wouldn't base my current or future strategy on it. Use the cloud - maybe. But declare the cloud as 'the future' - no, that's too strong a statement. (And various posts by Bob did say that the cloud was the future).
- To use the cloud safely (which Logos claims to do on http://www.logos.com/logos4/customize - "Safe and secure. You can have the peace of mind that all your documents—notes, clippings, and custom guides—are safely backed up on our servers.") My definition of Internet safety is that the data is stored encrypted using top strength industry standard encryption. The password for encryption/decryption is not stored anywhere other than in my head and should be as long as I want it to be. To be safe that means 20 characters or longer, IMHO. My understanding is that the data is is sent using the HTTPS protocol but is stored unencrypted. If that is so, then it cannot be described as 'safe'. I might as well send it to Logos in an envelope (which is all that HTTPS does, in effect) - Logos, hackers, Governments etc can easily read my Notes because they are stored unencrypted. I don't care whether anyone will actually try to read my stuff or not. I do care that, if they wanted to, they could.
- Logos4's 'all or nothing' approach to the use of the Internet is immature, naive and weak. There is no acceptable reason why it cannot provide Update Notifications but not synchronize. And it should offer options as to what is synchronized. I like, for instance, having my various Logos installations all open up to the last page I was reading - I find that useful. So I should be able to specify what gets synchronized.
- The Resource download mechanism is too silent - Most, if not all, software that I know of provide a decent update progress window and a list of things it is/has/will process. Not providing it is just lazy IMHO. Even Amazon's MP3 downloader is more sophisticated.
- I agree that Logos has to keep its Software version and resource versions in synch. That still does not prevent them from offering the facility to reject the download of a resource we never/no longer want. As long as it's made clear that we cannot access that resource unless it is up to date then there is no problem. I am utterly amazed that Bob has stated, several times, that this facility will never be offered. Especially as Logos has a 'hide resource' option which does the very same thing, just in a different order.
As to whether or not Logos4 is broken - I think it is an overstatement to say Logos4 is broken. In view of the above points, I would describe Logos4's internet implementation as weak, poor and, maybe, broken. But not Logos4 as a whole. Thinking of the car radio illustration - I once had a car and the radio stopped working. Did I come home and say to my wife "the car's broken"? No. I said "the car radio's broken". The car was still usable... In like manner, Logos4 is still very usable with the Internet disabled. Just as Logos3 is very usable...
Finally, with regard to Russ's comment: "The user determines what is broken or not. In fact, the attitude that the company determines what's "correct behavior" is what, precisely, makes a lot of us upset about this entire thing." I work for a company producing bespoke software and in this scenario the customer's opinion of each and every feature is sacrosanct. After all, we are producing it to the customer's specification and if we fail to deliver to that specification the customer has every right to complain and even pull the plug on the whole project.
Logos4, however, is shrink wrapped software where, ultimately, Bob and his team make every decision about what features are implemented and how they are implemented. I've also been in this situation, writing shrink wrapped Photography software, and I know that it is almost impossible to please all of the people all of the time. Usually you aim to keep the majority happy. It's the best you can do. Therefore, refusal to change a feature or to implement a feature is not in itself evidence that you do not care - it can be just evidence of pragmatism.
To be fair to Logos, they are unusually active in these forums - I don't recall Bill Gates or any senior decision maker at Microsoft responding to user's post in their support forums, but Bob regularly posts. I don't always agree with what he says but I respect him for saying it.
I am hopeful that Logos4 will improve its Internet approach. Until they, at the very least, store my data using the strongest encryption, I will not use Notes or Prayer lists. I agree that, in this area, Logos4 is flawed. Very flawed. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it, that is Logos4, broken.
Thankfully, the quality of the resources and information I get from them is utterly unaffected by these issues. I keep reminding myself of that. I bought Logos to enrich my life and my faith. It amply delivers in these areas.
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I agree with your three points regarding features, even though I have no personal need to see two of them implemented:
- Our user-data should be (optionally) encrypted on Logos servers, with the passkey known only to us.
- Synchronising should be optional, without turning the rest of the internet off.
- We should (optionally) be told what resources are being updated, before agreeing to the update.
I agree because (1) and (2) are extremely important to a small number of users, which probably makes them an low-medium priority. (3) seems to be fairly important to a reasonable number of users, which probably makes it medium priority. Other features such as printing and PBBs are obviously higher priorities, but I still expect these three to be implemented within a year.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Andy Bell said:
I just want to clarify my position, as my name recently was mentioned by Matthew:
Once again, you very ably state your views. (I still don't agree with all of them. [:P] ) Thanks.
Andy Bell said:I work for a company producing bespoke software and in this scenario the customer's opinion of each and every feature is sacrosanct. After all, we are producing it to the customer's specification and if we fail to deliver to that specification the customer has every right to complain and even pull the plug on the whole project.
When I customized my Les Paul guitar I had boutique pickups made to my specs. They are double wound, reverse wound coils, potted in Beeswax and housed in 24kt Gold. I wired them with selector switches for in-phase/out-of-phase and 19 other possible combinations. I even chose special pots and added a treble booster. Needless to say, the pups cost me more than the Gold plating. If they had fallen short of my specs I would have reason to complain. I can not reasonably expect off-the-shelf pickups to give me that Brian May sound.
Andy Bell said:Logos4, however, is shrink wrapped software where, ultimately, Bob and his team make every decision about what features are implemented and how they are implemented.
And I think they do a wonderful job of it. Given enough time I suspect even the issues raised in this thread will be satisfied to most users' requirements. I am willing to work within the current capabilities of the program. I am not against choices. I welcome as many options as Bob wants to add. I am already pleased as punch with the current state of affairs.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:Nina Jones said:
I love my Logos Bible Study software, it is so nice to have the Bible and all the helps at my fingertips. My hubby Matthew is having way too much fun on here!
Newbie !
Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums. Welcome, Nina!
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Rosie Perera said:
Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums.
A word of explanation: Nina has her own account because I bought her a Logos base package that better suited her needs. It seems I can disappear into a hardware store and not emerge until they lock up for the night. (Hence, Portfolio et al) Nina goes in single-mindedly and returns 4 minutes later with only the item she went in for. Her Bible study is done the same way. I am trying to show her how Logos supercharges her study time. I've made great progress just to move her into computer-based anything.
There are also many ancillary benefits like not having to worry about changes to my settings, "accidental" postings done in my name [:O] & the best benefit; keeping those Order histories and Pre-Pubs private. (Now that is data I jealously guard!)
I highly recommend everybody grab an extra base package for their spouse while the current discounts are on!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
(Andrew McKenzie said "zip it" and I think he was talking to me, not your side of the issue.)
I was speaking not just to you Matthew but any MVP who can't put their viewpoint across in the manner of point #3 on the guidelines and stop at that point. I am greatly concerned at seeing MVP's who continue past their personal viewpoint and start to ridicule, poke fun at, try to put holes in or generally destroy another's user's view point on an issue. These are real people we are dealing with, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ and this is a public forum on the internet.
Like it or not MVP's and will be seen by forum users as representatives of Logos Bible Software. Take a look at how Logos employees respond in these forums. User's expect MVP's will respond with the same diploma and grace. Some of the ways in which I see MVP's respond is an absolute disgrace not only as people who represent Logos but in the way in which they talk to fellow brothers and sisters in Chirst.
To you personally Matthew all I want to say is I would love to see more of what got you to being asked to be an MVP in the first place rather than you questioning users about the validity of their viewpoints on issues you dont agree with. I know that can be hard, I'm still learning when to bite, but my poor old tongue has an increasing number of bite marks. Thankfully I'll get a new one someday. By the time I'm finished with this one, not much of it will be left.
And my comments should extended not only to MVP's but all users for that matter.
Time for me to start biting again and its up to everyone else to seek in their own hearts, before God how they are going to move on from this point and how they are going to respond in the future on these forums on issues that clearly divided our opinions.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
And my comments should extended not only to MVP's but all users for that matter.
Andrew, the question in my mind that you have not addressed is the appropriate response to incorrect "information." My concern is that a number of forum users will not recognize it as the personal opinion of the poster rather than a fact about Logos. To me this is similar to providing accurate information about Logos features and their use. What response do you see as appropriate?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Andrew McKenzie said:
I would love to see more of what got you to being asked to be an MVP in the first place
I often wonder what in the world prompted Logos to invite me as an MVP. Bob must have prayed for patience with annoying people and God answered by leaving me in a basket on Bob's porch. You can review my post history from the beginning of the forums , through the release of Logos4, and the eventual creation of the MVP panel. Aside from the occassional recommendations to resources I have done nothing different from being my usual, annoying self. Check out these examples:
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/297/2686.aspx#2686
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/42/3171.aspx#3171
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3272.aspx#3272
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/276/4078.aspx#4078
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/435/4428.aspx#4428
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/472/4539.aspx#4539
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/568/5580.aspx#5580
http://community.logos.com/forums/p/3598/28604.aspx#28604I agree. All the MVPs (actually, all the forum regulars) should conduct themselves in a manner worthy of the high calling of Bible devotees and the Logos family. Our dedication is probably why we get so serious about our debates sometimes. There is no way a casual reader could think all the MVPs represent an official Logos party line when the MVPs debate with each other over differences. I'm not justifying bad behavior here. I willingly serve at Logos' pleasure & long-suffering. I hope they get more pleasure than pain from my posts, because I really LIKE the forums.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Rosie Perera said:
Neat to have our first (that I know of) husband/wife who are both on the forums. Welcome, Nina!
Thank you Rosie! My husband enjoys reading many of the forum posts to me. I feel like I already know many of the regular posters on here!
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Russ, your analogies are flawed in several ways:
* Logos is not the only car which works on these roads; it's just the car which works best* No one is saying 'since it was designed that way, it's not broken'; 'broken' refers to the product being unable to perform the task for which it was designed, and Logos performs that task perfectly whether online or offline
* The decision made with regard to the cloud has nothing to do with Logos not wanting anyone to use anything else, or Bob liking the cloud; it has to do with the considerable advantages which the cloud brings (advantages which I and others who live outside North America consider a 'must have' for a product in the 21st century with a global user base)
* The developer of the software is entirely able to determine what is broken and what isn't; software is not 'broken' if it doesn't have a feature a potential customer wants, software is 'broken' if it fails to perform the task for which the developer wrote it (Microsoft Powerpoint doesn't open Word documents, but that doesn't mean it's 'broken')
* The plumber with the broken pipes and the electrician are trying to convince you that they have done the work for which they were contracted; this is not analogous to Logos, since you did not contract them to write software to suit your specific list of requirements, you are choosing whether or not to purchase software they've written for a purpose which it performs very well
* The work carried out by the plumber and the electrician is 'broken' because it fails to function as intended; in contrast, Logos does function as intended, and functions very well
Logos have decided to go with the cloud for certain practical reasons. I understand those reasons. Moreover, their decision to do so has provided me with a range of considerable advantages which I view as a significant improvement over the previous version of their product.
What I'm more concerned about is the Logos users who want the software to turn into a note taking program for university students, or an office suite, or a social networking application. I want the program to retain focus on its core function, which is an exceptionally powerful research tool. I feel depressed every time I see another request for the software to be turned into something which has nothing to do with its core function. I don't want my best research tool turning into a diffused mess of bloatware.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Peace to you, Jonathan!
Well-spoken! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Jonathan Burke said:
Russ, your analogies are flawed in several ways:
No analogy is perfect. Net even God's parables run on all four feet. On the other hand, several of your statements about my analogies are completely and totally wrong, and you've contradicted yourself in several of your statements, as well.
[quote]What I'm more concerned about is the Logos users who want the software to turn into a note taking program for university students, or an office suite, or a social networking application. I want the program to retain focus on its core function, which is an exceptionally powerful research tool. I feel depressed every time I see another request for the software to be turned into something which has nothing to do with its core function. I don't want my best research tool turning into a diffused mess of bloatware.
I've not asked for the note taking part of Logos to be a full word processor. I've asked for it to be secure. I don't want embedded video. I don't want graphs and tables and charts and... Just security. That's it. I think Bob has already answered that they are thinking about different ways of handling this request --a conversation I'd be happy to participate in, if someone on that side wants my input-- so I don't see the point in continuing to argue about it.
OTOH, I'm often quite amused at these forums. I say, "this is what I think." Someone else says, "I don't understand." I reply with an analogy. Then someone else comes along and says, "but that analogy's not right, you're asking for a full word processor here." It's like the conversation jumps all over the place --sometimes with no discernible point other than, "beat down the person who's asking for something."
I've had people tell me off line that it feels like
anything even hinting at criticism here is instantly met with a firestorm
--that anything other than flat out agreement and the highest possible praise is taken as
"disparaging Logos and the people who work there." I've been told this
forum is more of a "fan club" than it is a place where you can seriously
discuss software --if you criticize at all, you will be buried with
post from people saying, "this isn't important..., I
don't care..., you're impugning the character..., etc. etc." That bothers me, partly because it often feels like it is true.People here say I "berate" Logos. But for all my apparent reputation as someone who's really hard on Logos here, I'm considered something of a shill for Logos in other circles. So outside the world of this forum, I'm a Logos shill [:O]. Inside of it, I'm a big evil irrational monster [8o|].
It's actually quite funny. [:)]
Sometimes it all makes me wonder if maybe we Christians, especially "well educated" Christians, have become so comfortable, or ensconced in a small little club-like world, that we've developed some seriously thin skins. "Don't talk too loud, you'll wake old Marley up, and you know what he's like when he's awake."
And when I hear y'all talk about security, it's like listening to folks in my Grandfather's town when I was growing up. "Nope, we don't lock the doors, this is a safe area, and we all know each other. I don't have anything worth stealing, anyway." Or, in your terms, "locks around here would just be bloatware." It took a major burglary spree before they all went and had door locks installed. What folks here don't seem to have learned is there is no "safe neighborhood" on the Internet. Such things simply don't exist in the "cyber world."
Oh, look, I used another flawed analogy. Please feel free to answer and tell me how wrong I am again. After all, what's a forum without a pet monster [8o|] to pick on?
Russ
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MJ. Smith said:Andrew McKenzie said:
And my comments should extended not only to MVP's but all users for that matter.
Andrew, the question in my mind that you have not addressed is the appropriate response to incorrect "information." My concern is that a number of forum users will not recognize it as the personal opinion of the poster rather than a fact about Logos. To me this is similar to providing accurate information about Logos features and their use. What response do you see as appropriate?
MJ I did want to comment no longer but you have brought me back into. My primary concern is with MVP's attitudes in their response and not if they are responding to mis-information, but those concerns about attitude should and do extend to all posters.
1) Right or Wrong, fair or not, MVP'S are seen as representatives of this company
2) The way in which they respond should be inline with point #3 of the forum guidelines. If they are not inline with those guidelines how can then place that expectation upon ordinary forums members. I'm not suggesting strict perfection in adherence to these guidelines. None of us perfect and there are few who could claim complete adherence to them at all times.
However I think #3 is a big one because it is based upon sound scriptural principles and we ALL should be aiming to follow for this very reason.
The following is an example of the sort of response by an MVP that is not inline with point #3 and or the way Christ expects us to treat one another. Claiming forum user mis-information is not a justification for this sort of response from an MVP.
It may be appropriate to say this sort of thing to a friend in jest about a situation but is not appropriate to say to someone who is a paying customer of the company whom you are representing. If I had ever spoken to a customer of any company that I have worked for I would be soon no longer working for that company.
3) Laying aside for a moment, this response is from a designated leader of this community, the response is an absolute disgrace and right now my spirit is grieved to see people speaking to one-another in this manner on a forum where we all claim we are here to study the Word of God. Nobody else seems to have the courage of conviction to call this for what it is, and that also concerns me, but is another matter. Instead they just want to say justify the first wrong and say look at that fellow over there he's much worse, or they join in and extend on these sort of baited comments picking up and throwing stones. In the garden the serpent was very clever and turned the question around on someone else to hide his own departure from the truth. There is nothing new under the sun, once again we are seeing humanity following the serpent's lead and trying to turn the light away from a very poor attitude displayed by some sections of the leadership of this community, by pointing the finger at another. The leadership of this community (like it or not MVP's that you) need to get their house in order,and I am sorry I know this doesn't apply to all MVP's, some of you do a fabulous job of trying to meet guideline #3, despite having your own personal convictions and desires on some of the issues under discussion.
So my mind I have addressed is the appropriate response to incorrect "information." in terms of how you go about responding to it. If you missed it do it in grace, with love, humility and devoid of your own personal philosophy or desires when you are specifically dealing with an instance of clear incorrect information, and preferably have information that you can readily refer the person. Surely it is not up to me to give the "What" to say in these instances. If Logos has placed MVP's in this position of responsibility surely they have instructed you, after all MVP's are representing Logos Bible Software, and they given you appropriate contacts to which you can escalate a thread if you feel if you don't have the correct information on hand to back up what you are saying in your own word. If they haven't then I am sorry you are in this situation, but it is still is no justification for the sort of response I use as an example above.
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Andrew McKenzie said:
MJ I did want to comment no longer but you have brought me back into.
Thank you for responding. I now understand your position much better - which is always a help in future communications.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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This will be my last post on this thread (I hope). And simply to say that when I originally read the MVPs post referenced above, it did not occur to me at all that it could be construed as violating the forum guidelines, or of being rude, etc. It still doesn't look that way to me. (And in fairness to the MVP, it does need to be read in the context of the two threads, and viewed in the light of some pretty harsh things that were said there.)
That said, I understand why some took it another way. Yesterday I told my wife that she'd just made the best gravy I'd tasted for months. That's a pretty big compliment. Did she take it that way? Not a hope - apparently I'd insulted the last six months worth of her gravy-making!! In web forums, it's even harder to get nuance across.
For those reasons, you're right to point out the need for grace as we formulate our replies. But there's also a real need for grace in the way that we need replies.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
This will be my last post on this thread (I hope). And simply to say that when I originally read the MVPs post referenced above, it did not occur to me at all that it could be construed as violating the forum guidelines, or of being rude, etc. It still doesn't look that way to me. (And in fairness to the MVP, it does need to be read in the context of the two threads, and viewed in the light of some pretty harsh things that were said there.)
That said, I understand why some took it another way. Yesterday I told my wife that she'd just made the best gravy I'd tasted for months. That's a pretty big compliment. Did she take it that way? Not a hope - apparently I'd insulted the last six months worth of her gravy-making!! In web forums, it's even harder to get nuance across.
For those reasons, you're right to point out the need for grace as we formulate our replies. But there's also a real need for grace in the way that we need replies.
I really wish there had been another way to communicate my concerns to
MVP's without having to do it in the manner of I have done but there's
forums don't offer that option. I've bit my tongue on this problem for a
while. These last two threads have been the ones have tipped the
scales to the point I could continue to ignore it. Having people tell me they disagree is less a burden than continuing to ignore this problem.The mode of communication on these forums it is even more reason we need to tone our response right down and take extra care in what we say because of the fact it can be very easily mis-understood. The issue I raise goes beyond these current threads in question, so I have made my comments in much greater context than these alone, and certainly not on the basis of the one example I have given. Some people, not just MVP's, have no read and responded with appropriate grace. Even if you dont agree with a poster that does not excuse a person for not reading and responding in grace.
The way you have communicated your difference of opinion to me is in stark contrast to the posts I am talking about. You have done it with grace and clear respect to my viewpoint, even though you disagree. You have not found need to do belittle or poke fun at me, mark off the cuff, throwaway comments, or just plain discredit me. You have provided a good example of how we should communicate our differences. Thank you Mark for the care and thought you have taken in responding to my concerns.
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Russ, I agree no analogy is perfect. But an analogy can function as support for an argument without being perfect. Your analogy cannot function as support for your argument, because on the very points at which it was supposed to represent Logos accurately, it did not represent Logos accurately.
I'm aware that you don't want to turn Logos into a Word processor. I'm aware that you want it to be made secure in the way you want it to be secure. I can sympathize with that, even though it is completely irrelevant to my needs because I just don't have a need for Logos to be a program which stores my personal private data. I have other programs which already store my personal private data, so I don't need another one. If I needed Logos to store my personal private data securely, I'd be asking for it too. But I don't have a need to store personal private data in the cloud.
I have no objection to you making your case for Logos to add a function to secure private data that you think it should keep for you. I have an objection to you referring to the entire program as 'broken' simply because it doesn't have a non-core feature you would prefer it to have.
I believe there's a far stronger case to be made for referring to Logos as 'broken' on the grounds that it doesn't contain what were core features in previous iterations, but absence of non-core features appearing on a personal wishlist? That's not 'broken'. Logos lacks a long list of non-core features I'd like to see it have, but that doesn't mean it's 'broken'.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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Matthew C Jones said:
I've made great progress just to move her into computer-based anything.
I know what that is like! [8-|]
I was going to refrain from participating in this thread until I read Andy Bell's well-written post. Thank you, Andy, for clarifying the issues. I think it would be a good thing for Logos to offer more user choices in this area—and others, although I would probably not use the majority of them.
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Jonathan Burke said:
I have no objection to you making your case for Logos to add a function to secure private data that you think it should keep for you. I have an objection to you referring to the entire program as 'broken' simply because it doesn't have a non-core feature you would prefer it to have.
1. Your objections to my analogies missed the point.
2. You don't consider security and privacy to be "core features." I do.
My point about the door locks is the same thing --in some communities door locks are not considered a "core feature" of the house. In others, buying a house without door locks would be tantamount to putting a sign on your front porch that says, "rob me please." Some people seem to think that the Internet is the sort of community where people won't rob you because you don't think the item is of value. The reality is people will rob you of data you don't think is important on the Internet in a heartbeat. One man's junk is another man's treasure.
The link to your mother on a social networking site is valuable information. In fact, all your links on a social networking site are valuable information to someone. Your birthdate on a social networking site, or anyplace else, is valuable information. The place you were born is valuable information. Yes, even that sort of "minor" stuff is valuable. I'll be glad to explain how, if you're really interested.
That person X is having marital trouble is extremely valuable information to someone, somewhere --in fact, it might even be actionable information that could be subpoenaed in a court of law. And the way the law currently reads, and is implemented, when a Pastor's prayer list from Logos is placed in a court record, everything on the hard drive that contained that prayer record is also placed in the court record, in full public view. Not many people realize that, I know, but that's simply the way it is. I'm pretty certain I actually pointed to a specific case somewhere in this thread.
So, the bottom line is just what I said above --you don't consider privacy a core feature. I do. When a company makes a piece of software that really only works as advertised if I enter my data into it, I expect that software to provide me the means to protect that data, whether or not you, or anyone else, thinks the information I'm entering is valuable.
It's that simple.
Oh yes, Facebook, email, and twitter. But the core point of those systems is to share information.The core purpose of Logos is a research tool, not an alternative to Facebook. I understand, fully, how a community on the notes side would be interesting and useful --think of the application in a theology class --but I'm not going to go there until I have control over my notes.
But anyway, this is my last post on the topic --I've said these things a hundred times over, and yet people still don't understand how valuable data about you is. The only "safe" way to operate on the Internet is to assume that someone, somewhere, will find a use for anything you put there, store there, or say there, and that someone will stand ready to acquire that data, legally or otherwise, when that use is found. Protect what you can, no matter whether or not you think it's "valuable," because the Internet's memory is permanent, and the number of eyes looking practically infinite.
If the Logos community doesn't want to take this threat seriously, even though it's coming from someone who really ought to know (a network engineer who works extensively in the security space, and deals with private data on a regular basis) --well, at least I've posted the warning signs.
I'm happy that Bob is considering the features he is in this space.
Russ
P.S. It seems what people want to beat me up over is calling Logos 4 "broken" because it doesn't take privacy into account. "Just don't use the notes and prayer lists." What bothers me about this response is that if you go to the Logos web site the resources and searches aren't the only things advertised and promoted. Notes are as well. Notes are not just an "add on," that happened to be thrown in there, they're an integral part of the software. For instance --notes allow you to link to, and link from, Scriptures to other resources. You can place individual notes on the toolbar. The feature, overall, is well thought out, and well integrated. Notes are actually more like the seats in the car than the radio. While you might be able to drive the car without the seats (I know people who have, actually), it's not a comfortable or optimal experience. If Logos hadn't made the notes a core piece of the software themselves, I would say there's an argument to be made --but they did, and hence your perception of how "broken" the software is without notes will vary.
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Russ,
Russ White said:1. Your objections to my analogies missed the point.
Your point was that Logos is 'broken' by virtue of not having the security feature you desire. Your analogy did not support that point, so it failed to substantiate your argument.
Russ White said:2. You don't consider security and privacy to be "core features." I do.
I don't consider security and privacy to be core features of a program which is not intended to maintain personal and private data securely, in the same way that I don't consider vegetables to be the core feature of an ice cream shop. Logos have made it clear time and time again that their program is not intended to be a repository for personal and private data, and have warned against using it for that purpose. It's that simple.
Email programs typically don't provide 256 bit encryption as a standard feature (or any encryption), despite the fact that they are designed to send electronic communication through a highly vulnerable medium. No one describes such programs as 'broken', because despite their lack of security they do what they are intended to do, they send electronic communication. They are typically not designed to secure data, they are designed to send it (some are designed specifically to send it securely, and people interested in doing so will use those programs).
Russ White said:But anyway, this is my last post on the topic --I've said these things a hundred times over, and yet people still don't understand how valuable data about you is.
I don't believe that's true. I can see many people understand very well how valuable data about you is. I do, which is why I don't store it in Logos. Why would I want to store it in Logos anyway? I have other programs specifically for that purpose, which are far more secure. What I have difficulty understanding is why anyone who really values data about themselves would want to upload it to the cloud. My valuable data stays on my local hard drive, and is backed up with an external hard drive which is then relocated. I don't want it in the cloud, because I value it.
Russ White said:P.S. It seems what people want to beat me up over is calling Logos 4 "broken" because it doesn't take privacy into account. "Just don't use the notes and prayer lists." What bothers me about this response is that if you go to the Logos web site the resources and searches aren't the only things advertised and promoted. Notes are as well. Notes are not just an "add on," that happened to be thrown in there, they're an integral part of the software.
The fact that they're an integral part of the software doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to describe the program as 'broken' just because the notes don't have a security feature you want. The notes aren't 'broken', the notes function works as intended; you can take notes. The notes function was never intended to act as a repository for personal and private data, so the fact that they don't do this does not mean that the function is 'broken', still less the entire program.
Win 7 x64 | Core i7 3770K | 32GB RAM | GTX 750 Ti 2GB | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (system) | Crucial m4 256GB SSD (Logos) | WD Black 1.5 TB (storage) | WD Red 3 TB x 3 (storage) | HP w2408h 24" | First F301GD Live 30"
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