Loaning Books
Is there some mechanism by which I can loan a book from my library to someone else who uses logos---as I can from my paper library?
Comments
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Currently there is none that I know of and it has been stated in the past this may be counter productive to sales. But i think it would be a boon to the entire Logos ecosystem. Having the ability to loan out a book would mean potentially many thousands who never would have considered Logos suddenly have to create a free account so you can see it... I envision the easiest thing would be to set the length ie I lend you this for 15 days... then in those 15 days you try to open it you get, I am sorry but the "The Gospel and Letters of John: Commentary on the Gospel of John, vol. 2, The Eerdmans Critical Commentary" has been lent to "Tom@richardson.com" till March 19, 2018 if you need this work right away ask the borrower to click the info button and press return immediately otherwise please try again after March 19th.
It is very possible that this could never work with the contracts but if the technicalities and legalities did get worked out it would make Logos the only place you wanted to get a book since you could easily lend it to a friend. These legalities are somewhat worked out already since ebooks are able to be borrowed from public libraries.
-dan
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Dan Francis said:
These legalities are somewhat worked out already since ebooks are able to be borrowed from public libraries.
Yes, but... Libraries pay licensing fees to various companies for the ability to do so. Two examples which I use, and how they are different from one another:
- Hoopla: I am allowed to check out THREE items in a given month. My previous county library's subscription allowed for FIVE. The library does pay Hoopla a set fee for each rental, which is related to why one county's library system allows less than the other. The resources in the collection are always "in stock," meaning that everyone could check out the same book at the same time, no problems (like netflix).
- Overdrive: (Denise would like to know that the app is called "Libby" [:)]) This program works like a real library in the sense that there is a limited number of copies of any given resource... in most cases, just one. Users are allowed an unlimited number of resources in a month, but a limited number of resources at a time.
Those are fairly complex licensing agreements, which require quite a bit of technology to enforce.
Nook & Kindle both have the ability to lend books, but only CERTAIN books, only ONE time for up to 14 days and the user LOSES ACCESS to it during the lending period:
- NOOK: Yes, you can lend eligible books to NOOK friends, or any BN.com account - up to 14 days. You will not have access to your book while it is lent out (similar experience with paper book), and each book can only be lent one time. You can view a list of all your lendable books by tapping LendMe, found under the My Stuff icon along the top of the screen in your Library. LINK: https://nook.barnesandnoble.com/u/Support-NOOK-Tablet/379003185
- KINDLE: You can lend a Kindle book to another reader for up to 14 days... A Kindle book can only be loaned one time. Magazines and newspapers are not currently available for lending... You can loan eligible Kindle books from the product detail page of a book you purchased on Amazon. During the loan period, you will not be able to read the book that you loaned... LINK: https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_rel_topic?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200549320
I am fully in favor of this coming to Logos... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it in the near future.
FYI - an interesting site (don't know if I would trust it or not): https://www.booklending.com/faq.htm
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Wow, déja vú! I’ve seen this question before with virtually the same answer by the same people. Spooky 🧟♂️
DAL
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Got to be plagiarism. [:P]
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Thank you all. Sorry to raise an already hashed out subject. I guess this will have to go in the hard copy column when deciding between a Logos book or hard copy. If I have a friend who is preaching through Ephesians, I can physically loan him my paper commentaries but I can't help him with my Logos books.
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Donn Arms said:
Sorry to raise an already hashed out subject.
No need to be sorry! That is what the forums are for! [:)]
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JT (alabama24) said:
I am fully in favor of this coming to Logos... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it in the near future.
This reflects my thoughts as well. Perhaps someday!
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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JT (alabama24) said:
I am fully in favor of this coming to Logos... but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it in the near future.
This reflects my thoughts as well. Perhaps someday!
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Dan Francis said:
i think it would be a boon to the entire Logos ecosystem. Having the ability to loan out a book would mean potentially many thousands who never would have considered Logos suddenly have to create a free account so you can see it
Agreed. I cannot recommend (or even demonstrate) Logos to most people due to both its price or their lack of need. The occasions that I could have done so are almost always with the 'Ministers in Training', where the basic set plus a couple of key 'loans' for a limited time would have allowed them plenty of time to use the software ... these are the folks who will have need and hopefully the desire to take their study on further. Once hooked ... the buying will come ;-)
I have no problem 'losing' access to some of my resources for a couple of weeks ... in the same way as I would lose access to my hose should anybody care to borrow it!
I would even pay a small amount to loan (help) a friend in this way ... although I am sure the Logos marketing budget could subsidise that! There could be further restrictions, such as a limit of the number of loans to any one person at a time; or a limit in the number of 'associated' users to whom we can loan; etc. etc. There could also be limits by publisher, in the same way as we accept no dynamic pricing, or no downloads to mobile devices from certain establishments.
I know there is an academic pricing system somewhere in the Faithlife conglomerate ... but I have never seen any details ... I presume it is for those in certain recognised institutions ... and I presume that it would be still a large commitment for somethig that has never been seen to be useful (yet!).
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
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michael trostrud said:
Link is not active, copied it to see if that would work, looks like it did...this is a great idea and would help me to recommend logos to others.
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User Voice Suggestion said:
I would like to be able to lend a book to another logos user and would also like to be able to borrow books like you can with kindle or a real book.
...but you can't really do this with Kindle books. You can with some titles (not all), but only once. The copyright holders aren't likely to allow this on most titles anytime soon.
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I don’t vote for this feature. Is not good for business nor users in the long run 👎👎👎👎👎 Five thumbs down from me.
DAL
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Just curious how you perceive it would be bad for users in the long run?
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Greg Dement said:
Just curious how you perceive it would be bad for users in the long run?
What if all of the sudden you need that book you just loaned out? Besides, who’s going to pay for someone to keep track of your loaned books? Is not going to be cheap to do that or do you expect that to be a free service? Remember, we’re not dealing with lower quality books like kindle. I’m not willing to pay to loan out my book nor do I expect the other person to pay. Too many headaches involved and it should be avoided at all cost. besides, it’s very bad for business, that alone should be reason enough not to vote for something like this.
DAL
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If publishers were to allow loaning of books, I would expect it to be within a limited circle - family or faith group. So I would expect it could be handled as a form of group license for little increase in overhead management.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ralph Mauch said:
...this is a great idea and would help me to recommend logos to others.
This proves the point that it's very bad for business. So...are you currently recommending Logos? If not, why not, because they don't allowed users to loan out books?
This is where the problem is: You recommend Logos because you can loan out books, that means people will just get a free engine/account, then borrow a book and most likely not buy anything. That would put Logos in a bad situation and perhaps send them straight to bankruptcy since they're no longer selling.
Let's keep it real, Logos/Faithlife is a business and businesses need to make money to provide new features/versions of the software and new content. By jumping into the "loan out book" business all of that will disappear. Besides, most people are expecting this to be a free service without considering all the contracts (business) going on behind the scenes.
In my honest opinion, a "feature" like that, shouldn't even be considered because it'll prevent the company from making money and paying their staff who have families to support.
My two cents
DAL
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MJ. Smith said:
If publishers were to allow loaning of books, I would expect it to be within a limited circle - family or faith group. So I would expect it could be handled as a form of group license for little increase in overhead management.
When someone buys a book I could see a category that says "Buy Loaner status" like the "Digital" or "Digital Group," and charge double for that book so it can cover some of the costs to loan it out, and then when you loan it, charge a loaner fee depending on the amount of days you loan it out (or just have a flat fee of $20 per book and a limited number of days). That could offset the cost. I bet no one would want to pay double the price for one book just to have a book that can be loaned out. At least, in my opinion, if it ever happens, it shouldn't be a free service. Anyway, I'm not going to worry about that, since it may never happen
DAL
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DAL said:Ralph Mauch said:
...this is a great idea and would help me to recommend logos to others.
This proves the point that it's very bad for business. So...are you currently recommending Logos? If not, why not, because they don't allowed users to loan out books?
DAL
I will give a counterexample to DAL's analysis.
My son attended Phoenix seminary in the early 2000's. He was instrumental in getting Phoenix Seminary included in the Logos academic program.
Once my son left seminary he had a paper library and a Logos library. He drifted away from Logos because he was put off by the fact that he could not loan out a book, now and then.
He is getting back to Logos this month, but in the intervening dozen or so years, he has not made any Logos purchases or had occasion to get anyone to download Logos in order to read a book which he would have been willing to share.
Meanwhile, I loaned one book out of a set from my paper library to someone who has logos. I have yet to get my paper book back. A good automated loan strategy would take the loaned book out of my library, limit the time of the loan, and return the book to me when it was returned or after the time limit is exceeded.
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DAL said:
At least, in my opinion, if it ever happens, it shouldn't be a free service.
I have do doubt (and also, not a Thomas) that any hint of pricing loan-outs (to cover admin costs) would quickly kill the loaning idea. And for some reason (almost unimaginable), people think there's some sort of religious value ... even 'salvation' associated with the Logos digital books. Ok, ok ... so I tried to loan out Marla's Hunky Cowboy, but not the whole series. And student's are always needing a quick loan, aren't they?
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DAL said:MJ. Smith said:
If publishers were to allow loaning of books, I would expect it to be within a limited circle - family or faith group. So I would expect it could be handled as a form of group license for little increase in overhead management.
When someone buys a book I could see a category that says "Buy Loaner status" like the "Digital" or "Digital Group," and charge double for that book so it can cover some of the costs to loan it out, and then when you loan it, charge a loaner fee depending on the amount of days you loan it out (or just have a flat fee of $20 per book and a limited number of days). That could offset the cost. I bet no one would want to pay double the price for one book just to have a book that can be loaned out. At least, in my opinion, if it ever happens, it shouldn't be a free service. Anyway, I'm not going to worry about that, since it may never happen
DAL
So there can be Faithlife loans or User loans, but the choice of needed resources could make one method more expensive.
- Faithlife loans
- Group license doesn't have to be used
- Better choices/more convenient at Logos.com etc.
- Collections can make needed resources more expensive
- Collections can make needed reverse interlinears more expensive
- Fees likely determined by the "Regular price" to buy.
- User loans
- Use Group "loaning" license (loaner would have to "accepted" by the owner)
- Choices limited by participating owners (all available resources could be displayed)
- Loaner not limited by Collections i.e. potentially better choice of needed (quality) resources
- Reverse Interlinears could come with the resource
- Potentially pay the same fee per resource with a minimum per transaction, say $20
- Group to handle requests for resources to be loaned to avoid the Forums being flooded.
I anticipate that User loans would be cheaper, even if the publisher wants a fee.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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On this topic my preference would be for FL to negotiate with publishers to offer a rental fee, a la Amazon. I see no easy path for users to be involved with the process. As most are familiar, FL already offers a library of books via the Cloud, expanding on this program may offer the best pathway to meet the public needs of users.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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DAL said:Greg Dement said:
Just curious how you perceive it would be bad for users in the long run?
What if all of the sudden you need that book you just loaned out? Besides, who’s going to pay for someone to keep track of your loaned books? Is not going to be cheap to do that or do you expect that to be a free service? Remember, we’re not dealing with lower quality books like kindle. I’m not willing to pay to loan out my book nor do I expect the other person to pay. Too many headaches involved and it should be avoided at all cost. besides, it’s very bad for business, that alone should be reason enough not to vote for something like this.
DAL
This one is easy. It's your book. You make the choice to loan it. While on loan it's not available to you, but if you hit that button and yoink it back, it comes right back to you, instantaneously (pending perhaps an internet connection on both ends). This is really a non-issue.
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hc said:
This one is easy. It's your book. You make the choice to loan it. While on loan it's not available to you, but if you hit that button and yoink it back, it comes right back to you, instantaneously (pending perhaps an internet connection on both ends). This is really a non-issue.
Your logic matches the case of hard-copy books quite well, except for the boomerang effect! Between electronic copyright and fair-use it would be problematic for responsible producers/publishers like Faithlife. Just remember that a license has to be granted to the recipient and in many cases this will clash with Faithlife's temporary licenses for some of its products and subscriptions, and there are cases where a book cannot be "loaned" by Faithlife or is not allowed on portable media. Also, FL have grown wary of copyright infringements with Personal Books.
This really is an issue.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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hc said:DAL said:Greg Dement said:
Just curious how you perceive it would be bad for users in the long run?
What if all of the sudden you need that book you just loaned out? Besides, who’s going to pay for someone to keep track of your loaned books? Is not going to be cheap to do that or do you expect that to be a free service? Remember, we’re not dealing with lower quality books like kindle. I’m not willing to pay to loan out my book nor do I expect the other person to pay. Too many headaches involved and it should be avoided at all cost. besides, it’s very bad for business, that alone should be reason enough not to vote for something like this.
DAL
This one is easy. It's your book. You make the choice to loan it. While on loan it's not available to you, but if you hit that button and yoink it back, it comes right back to you, instantaneously (pending perhaps an internet connection on both ends). This is really a non-issue.
Yeah, what Dave said! This thread is six years old and it never happened 😉 Maybe people can do what they’re supposed to do, just buy their own books instead of borrowing someone else’s investment.
DAL
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