Thinking about PBB content and Stand-alone or Cloud-Sync ...
Comments
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Matthew C Jones said:
I have a great suggestion for everyone who hates synching with the cloud, misses their notes and PBB library: Just keep using Logos Version 3!
Well, as I started this Thread, I "own" this little part of the Internet, so its my turn. [:)]
I like that Bob popped up and shared some ideas. He also said its not yet all locked down, so they are still working out the details. As for a possible PD store, it seemed to me that it was something he would like to do, if only he could solve the many issues with it. And of course, I'm guessing there.
As for any pricing or license model, for now, I'm happy to wait and see what happens next.
As for anyone hating online sync, I've seen little or none of that from anyone. Maybe some don't want it, or the option to turn it off. Not so sure anyone hates it.
[ The issues with "selling" PBB-created content is many. Maybe the biggest relates to Copyright, and if Logos "sells" them, maybe they then become the Publisher, and some of those Copyright issues land on them if one of us gets it wrong. E.G. We use NIV or ESV or whatever in our document, but have not obtained Commercial rights to do so, for a work that is to be sold (even if only for 99 cents). ]
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think Bob made it very clear the compiling would be done by Logos, on Logos servers, distributed from Logos servers and synched back to Logos servers.
Matthew C Jones said:The PBB store will not be FREE. At least that is what I maintain is to be reasonably expected. I am just trying to temper the excitement with a dose of reality.
We read Bob's post quite differently. To me, that fact that the compilation occurs on Logos servers says nothing about who initiates that compilation and when. I hope (and expect) that is at the creators whim.
The fact that Logos is considering allowing creators to market their PBB's rather than free distribution says nothing about what the creators of the PBB's will choose to do. To charge or not to charge that is the question - the question for the creator. Note what Bob says in his point D - there will be an option to share.
I suspect that the thinking behind a possible PBB store is that in the new environment, one can do much more to the text to improve its usefulness in Logos. Some people need to be compensated for their time to justify the effort.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
And you can count on any public domain stuff NOT being offered if a Logos alternative has been produced.
Hasn't this always been true - one is motivated to create a PBB only if you don't have it and can't get it. What is or is not available in PBB's depends specifically on what people like myself chose to do. What we chose to do is dependent upon what Logos has already done, what our personal interests are, the ease of using the new product, our perception of the reception of the material, and the time we wish to expend on the effort.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have a few concerns, but until Bob draws the line in the sand, its all speculation...
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Jim Towler said:
Maybe the biggest relates to Copyright, and if Logos "sells" them, maybe they then become the Publisher, and some of those Copyright issues land on them if one of us gets it wrong
I'm not a lawyer but I suspect that the PBB creator would be liable. One reason that I don't want Logos to convert any of my files automatically, there are some that I need to reconsider the copyright status of - I had permission to convert to Logos but not to charge anything. Others I could use under certain academic exclusions which I need to be certain I still fall within.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jim Towler said:
Well, as I started this Thread, I "own" this little part of the Internet,
Just because you started a thread doesn't give you control over who posts, or a corner on what the truth is. My posts are related to PBBs synching with the cloud, etc...
I do need to correct my statement "All posters" to read "some posters." Upon carefully reading the whole thread again, I find at least four people who expect to pay something to have PBB access in Version 4. If Bob can deliver PBBs to Logos 4, even for a modest per-title fee, I will be happy. If he can then make them available on iPad I will be even happier.
Many times I have posted unpopular things that were borne out as completely factual:
1) When everyone was trashing a certain Logos employee named "Dan", I suggested they might ought to be more respectful
2) When people kept promoting off-site links to purchase from third parties, I said it was bad manners. (Logos agreed)
3) I warned if people didn't practice better self-government in posting, we would end up with forum rules (we did)
4) I warned if we didn't follow forum rules we would get a moderator (we did, although s/he is working undercover [H] )I think it is unreasonable to expect Logos Version 4 to be everything Version 3 was and fully functional on mobile devices without heavily taxing the resources of the company. But I am a relic of the past: I quit programming about the time you started. So aside from living the history you read about, I really don't have much to offer.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think it is unreasonable to expect Logos Version 4 to be everything Version 3 was and fully functional on mobile devices without heavily taxing the resources of the company. But I am a relic of the past:
I, too, am a relic of the past in terms of computers. My reasoning for assuming that the PBB function would be integrated was Bob P.'s statements that they are moving away from the add-in concept. If the PBB generation is strictly on their servers, they could charge a fee and remain true to their basic design principles. They could also limit it to specific base levels, an approach that they have used with other features. We'll have to wait and see - then you can update your win/loss statistics.[:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
Just because you started a thread doesn't give you control over who posts, or a corner on what the truth is.
Matthew, You will see I wrote "own" in quotes, and a smile on the end of the line. I was not claiming to control who could speak. I was only claiming it was my turn to speak next. Not at all like you suggest in the line above.
Unless you programmed with paper tape or punchcards, your suggestion on when I began programming make be off by some years, but its not important here. I will leave it at that, and say little more.
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MJ. Smith said:
one is motivated to create a PBB only if you don't have it and can't get it. What is or is not available in PBB's depends specifically on what people like myself chose to do.
Yes, generally speaking. But we already had Calvin's commentaries in PBB before Logos did them in Version 4.
Will Logos make any public domain PBBs available when they could produce their own in-house version for a better profit? For example: Barnes' Notes or the Stone-Campbell works that Calvin Habig did are all public domain titles that have a profitable marketability. I doubt Logos would make just any titles available in PBB format..
I already have most every Puritan writer in Pre-Pub in PDF format. (80 CDs full) It would not be hard to PBB all that but I doubt Logos would compile any of it. Same with the Stone-Campbell material. (Millineal Harbinger, The Christian Baptist, Works of Lard, Franklin, etc.)
So there isn't much need for PBB in Logos 4 outside of a "vanity press" function. Everybody wants to write a book and Logos is king of copyrighted Bible related ebooks. I doubt any PBBs come out in Logos 4 without close scrutiny for copyright infringement or due consideration to how it's publication will impact future Logos publication opportunities. (That is why the Puritan works show up in Pre-Pub and not Community Pricing.. There is a bigger profit to be made.)
I still think you won't get the 900+ Version 3 PBBs in Logos 4.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I already have most every Puritan writer in Pre-Pub in PDF format. (80 CDs full) It would not be hard to PBB all that but I doubt Logos would compile any of it. Same with the Stone-Campbell material. (Millineal Harbinger, The Christian Baptist, Works of Lard, Franklin, etc.)
So there isn't much need for PBB in Logos 4 outside of a "vanity press" function. Everybody wants to write a book and Logos is king of copyrighted Bible related ebooks. I doubt any PBBs come out in Logos 4 without close scrutiny for copyright infringement or due consideration to how it's publication will impact future Logos publication opportunities. (That is why the Puritan works show up in Pre-Pub and not Community Pricing.. There is a bigger profit to be made.)
Have you made many PBB's from PDF's in L3? I suspect that L4 with the increased indexing, pagination, etc. will be more effort to do well. I wouldn't expect Logos to "censor" what one compiles; they logically could request the author to respect copyright laws for items in any "PBB store"
Why do you doubt Logos would compile Puritan or Stone-Campbell material? As for "vanity press", I am currently approaching a Coptic Orthodox publisher for permission to make PBB's of some of their work. Is this vanity press?
Your writing style admittedly confuses me - you give your conclusions but not the logic that gets you there. Unfortunately, I think in truth-tables and need the steps leading to you conclusions. I'd appreciate your trying to resolve my confusion.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Why do you doubt Logos would compile Puritan or Stone-Campbell material?
MJ,
If I were the Logos exec who has to decide to compile a PBB of a Stone-Campbell Collection or put one up in Pre-Pub for $200, I would do the later.MJ. Smith said:I'd appreciate your trying to resolve my confusion.
I would like to tell you I am wise enough not to debate someone of superior intellect. But we both know that isn't the case. [:P] So I'll have to defer this until later. I'm experiencing serious health challenges and need to determine if it is "only" pancreatitis or something more ominous. I suspect they will hold me hostage in the hospital for a number of days. Besides, any posts I make now are tainted from sleepless nights of pain.
I do covet your prayers.
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Matthew C Jones said:
I'm experiencing serious health challenges and need to determine if it is "only" pancreatitis or something more ominous.
You'll be in my prayers - that sort of health problem is no fun.[:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry to come onto the discussion late, but I think this could be a really smart move. I think the pricing model would be to allow PBB creation for free.
The idea of the store is an interesting one. One of Logos' most significant costs is content creation/formatting. If it costs them $10,000 to tag and publish a public domain resource that the community is willing to do for free, then why not sell it on the PBB store for $1 or so? If the system can be automated, then overheads would be very low, bar credit-card processing costs. But I could imagine a split where 40% covers costs, 10% goes to the creator, and Logos would keep perhaps 50%. I could easily see several hundred thousand PBB works sold for $1 over the course of a year - if they were marked up well and properly integrated into Logos. There could even be bulk credit discounts to keep those card processing costs low. Do the maths: 100,000 PBBs selling for $1 could net Logos $50,000. That would probably pay for the infrastructure within the first year. Indeed, much of the infrastructure would be shared with in-app purchasing which must surely be on the horizon soon.
Would Logos allow users to re-create titles they've spend thousands of dollars creating? Probably not - yet. But once they've got their money back, I wouldn't be surprised.
The problem I see here is in quality control. What's stopping us downloading documents from CCEL, converting them to PBB format and uploading them to the store, with the formatting and mark-up done badly? You wouldn't want twenty copies of different books from different creators, either. There's a couple of options. One would be to charge content creators before they can sell. The second would be to manually review every submission. I wouldn't be surprised if Logos did both.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I've already contacted a Coptic press that makes a number of books available in PDF format suggesting that they might want to consider the PBB format. I can easily see it as a win-win situation. I can also see them easily taking 6 months to make a decision so it doesn't hurt to start early. [:)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It's quite possible that Logos might only allow Public Domain works on the PBB store, to protect their revenue and ensure quality resources are fully tagged and supported.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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It appears to me that there are two major changes in PBB system from what we have seen working in V3:
1. Logos 4 is not using any addins anymore, so PBB compiler will have to be part of Logos 4, that means everybody will have it. Before we also paid for the compilation, only the way had been different. We bought a PBB Book Builder, plus we paid an annual fee. If the new system would let me pay to compile a single pbb resource or even to buy any work of other guys via Apps store, I am perfectly fine with that.
2. Logos 4 PBB should be "no second-class citizen". With V3 PBBs we could have some PBBs that would slower down whole system (large PBBs, if done by one html file, just to give one example). Logos is decided, as far as I understand it, to make sure PBBs are not able to cripple Logos 4 performance. So it looks to me they will have their hands on the end result by having compilation done on their servers (sort of Apple's way of approving the applications offered in their Apps Store).
My question is: will we still have 2 options for PBBs? The Standard one and Private one? Will I be able to compile some books I have rights to use but not to offer to anybody else?
Bohuslav
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
It appears to me that there are two major changes in PBB system from what we have seen working in V3:
1. Logos 4 is not using any addins anymore, so PBB compiler will have to be part of Logos 4, that means everybody will have it.
Not necessarily. While they aren't implemented as separately purchasable "addins" anymore, there are different features that are only available in higher up base packages. So they do have the technical capability to have features such as the PBB compiler be available only to those who pay for it, whether it's build into the main Logos engine or not. I suspect that as a compiler (which just takes a source file as input and produces a resulting resource file) it won't need to be part of the Logos UI, and I don't see any strong reason why they would choose to make it so. But I can't read their minds.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:If the new system would let me pay to compile a single pbb resource or even to buy any work of other guys via Apps store, I am perfectly fine with that.
Martha and I heard a hint from a Logos employee at Camp Logos a couple of months ago that there will be some sort of marketplace for PBBs created by users.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:Logos is decided, as far as I understand it, to make sure PBBs are not able to cripple Logos 4 performance. So it looks to me they will have their hands on the end result by having compilation done on their servers (sort of Apple's way of approving the applications offered in their Apps Store).
They won't necessarily have to do it that way. They could choose to make their compiler available for users to run on their own computers. It sounds like all PBBs will have to be compiled in order to run, because they've said they are going to be using native Logos book format for PBBs in L4.
Bohuslav Wojnar said:My question is: will we still have 2 options for PBBs? The Standard one and Private one? Will I be able to compile some books I have rights to use but not to offer to anybody else?
Your guess is as good as mine. I think they are still working out the details. They haven't begun implementing PBB yet, according to a recent comment by Bob or Bradley (I think) referring to what is marked "Started" vs. "Planned" on the UserVoice site.
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Bohuslav Wojnar said:
My question is: will we still have 2 options for PBBs? The Standard one and Private one? Will I be able to compile some books I have rights to use but not to offer to anybody else?
Yes, Logos has made it very clear that the default is private and there will be some ability to specify a small group as well as public to all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What does the timinglook like for implementing Personal Book Builder for L4.x?
Living in the Fruit of the Spirit!
For the glory of God alone!
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Dennis Audet said:
What does the timinglook like for implementing Personal Book Builder for L4.x?
That's anybody's guess - Q3?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bob Pritchett said:
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
The basic idea is:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Compiling will probably be done on the server. (Because we're making PBB books first-class citizens, they need to go through the primary metadata and license databases, so we can sync them to your multiple devices, let your read your PBB's on your iPhone, etc.)C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control of exactly what you share and who you share it with.
E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
This is awesome! I love the store idea. Churches could link to it like to a "podcast" so that people could download sermon manuscripts & notes. It also makes self-publishing in Logos so easy! This should open Logos up for small publishing houses.
Please consider making the "report typo" feature link back to the submitter.
Also, within the store, I think that ratings would be nice. Ask about three areas:
- Content
- Formatting
- Linking/Tagging
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Mark Barnes said:
It's quite possible that Logos might only allow Public Domain works on the PBB store, to protect their revenue and ensure quality resources are fully tagged and supported.
I bet this will be a revenue stream for them if non-public domain works are up there and they get a cut of the sales price (like Apple does from apps)
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
Bob I am very interested in this part of PBB. This way every author can get published, and hopefully retain full copyright of their intellectual content.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Will Logos make any public domain PBBs available when they could produce their own in-house version for a better profit? For example: Barnes' Notes or the Stone-Campbell works that Calvin Habig did are all public domain titles that have a profitable marketability. I doubt Logos would make just any titles available in PBB format..
You pointed to this as a unanswered question in another thread. So I'll add my understanding (which may be right or wrong):
- Logos has not indicated anywhere that they would censor what the user can make. You can make a PBB of anything you want without regard to whether Logos publishes or plans to publish it.
- Logos has not indicated that they will make any PBB's available - the person who created the PBB makes that decision; often they are the only ones who know the copyright status of an item e.g. getting permission of the author to make it available to a class. The creator releases it to a group or everyone; or the creator keeps it provate.
- Logos may need to protect themselves from suits arising from the violation of copyright status - I won't guess how they will achieve this but it could be as simple as a signature from the PBB creator acknowledging that the liability is theirs.
This is my understanding from what Logos has said. Do you know if they've said something else?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Matthew C Jones said:
I would have to spend $990+ to move my PBB collection into Logos 4
I think two issues ought to be separated here.
- the sharing of notes, highlighting, PBB's is a matter of access permissions rather than "new Logos expense" This is not to be confused with
- a Logos store which allows PBB creators to charge for their work. While we know this is under consideration we know nothing about how it would work. My guess would be that Logos would charge a processing fee for each transaction, But that is simply my guess.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
the sharing of notes, highlighting, PBB's is a matter of access permissions rather than "new Logos expense"
The 990 Libronix PBBs hosted on StillTruth & other sites are what I was referring to. They will not presently run under Logos 4. Bob said L4 PBBs would most likely be compiled on Logos servers. That will cost somebody money to do it.
MJ. Smith said:a Logos store which allows PBB creators to charge for their work. While we know this is under consideration we know nothing about how it would work. My guess would be that Logos would charge a processing fee for each transaction,
Once again, this will cost someone some money.
I stand by my statement: We will never have PBBs offered for FREE like we had under Libronix 3. And the current Libronix 3 PBBs will not all be converted to Logos 4 format. But just as you have said:
MJ. Smith said:But that is simply my guess.
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Matthew C Jones said:
The 990 Libronix PBBs hosted on StillTruth & other sites are what I was referring to.
Yes, that it what I assumed - but I would expect that they remain the property of their creators who will choose to tag and recompile them or not. None that I released were on Still Truth, but I would not want Logos to automatically convert any of my work. And should they do so, I am confident that it would revert to private.
Matthew C Jones said:Once again, this will cost someone some money.
If the creator wishes, certainly. We do not know if the PBB creator will have its own price (as in L3) but I would expect any compiling costs to be built into its price.
Somehow on this issue when I see a glass half-full, you see a glass 3/4 empty[;)] Soon we'll be getting details to know the answer rather than speculating.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Soon we'll be getting details to know the answer rather than speculating.
Soon? We can speculate, or just not talk about it for another 12 months. [:#]
Dave Hooton said:Dennis Audet said:What does the timinglook like for implementing Personal Book Builder for L4.x?
That's anybody's guess - Q3?
Dave Hooton was guessing Q3 of 2010. [:O] His post was May 8, 2010
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Matthew C Jones said:MJ. Smith said:
Soon we'll be getting details to know the answer rather than speculating.
Soon? We can speculate, or just not talk about it for another 12 months.
Bob P. has said it is actively underway and will be released in the relatively near future.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Bob Pritchett said:
PBB for Logos 4 isn't coded yet... so things are still flexible.
The basic idea is:
A) No more second-class citizens. PBB will use the same internal file format as books we distribute, so highlighting and other features "just work."
Compiling will probably be done on the server. (Because we're making PBB books first-class citizens, they need to go through the primary metadata and license databases, so we can sync them to your multiple devices, let your read your PBB's on your iPhone, etc.)C) Your content defaults to private, just like your notes and other information.
D) You'll have the option to share your books with "groups" of other people. (And your notes, highlights, etc.) You'll have per-file control of exactly what you share and who you share it with.
E) We're considering a PBB store, like the App Stores for mobile phones, where you could choose to sell PBB's for which you owned the copyright, with Logos handling the credit card transactions, downloading, etc.
This is just "the state of the thinking"....
-- Bob
We have PBB on our Pc's and mac's, now what about mobile devices? Would love to compile sermons on a tablet, and preach from them. Maybe even control Proclaim, from Logos on a Tablet.
Is the store idea still in the works? Not asking for a timeline (although one would be good), and could you share some ideas about the pricing of PBB?
Waiting with anticipation.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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