Action of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament
I must admit that I am not good with searching - how to use all the different field values and comparisons, etc. I have some training videos, but it seems to escape me. Anyway …
I want to search the Old Testament to find instances of the action of the Holy Spirit on a person and/or and event. Saying it another way; what is the work of the Holy Spirit in specific events or lives of persons in the Old Testament?
Thanks in advance. 
Comments
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I'll show you how to fish rather than give you the fish. This method is applicable to any (relatively simple) search you want to do:
1. Find a passage that is like what you are looking for. In this case, a passage that indicates the work of the Spirit (early chapters of Luke, many in Acts, etc.).
2. Right-click on a verse that contains what you look for and explore the context menu for things you can search for. Remember that any item that has a small arrow next to it (in the right pane) can be expanded to reveal more.
3. Once you find something that could do the trick (e.g., the lemma for Spirit or "Holy Spirit" as a preaching theme or person -- there's even a topic called "influence of gods and spirits on persons"), click on that and select what you want to search on the left pane (everything, this resource, all resources, etc.).
This method will give you a head start on many searches and give you ideas you may not even be thinking about. Once a search is generated you can copy and paste the search string to combine with other search criteria if you want. For instance, you may generate a <Person Holy Spirit> search from the context menu, then generate another search from the same passage such as <Sense = to be filled (supplied)>, then cut and paste to combine:
<Person Holy Spirit> AND <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> for an example of a more specific search (the work of the Spirit of course includes other effects than "filling").
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Francis said:
<Person Holy Spirit> AND <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> for an example of a more specific search (the work of the Spirit of course includes other effects than "filling").
AND finds verses that have both search items so one search refinement can be NEAR:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR <Sense = to be filled (supplied)>
that only finds results in the New Testament (like AND example)
Deacon Steve said:Saying it another way; what is the work of the Holy Spirit in specific events or lives of persons in the Old Testament?
Going to Psalms 51:11 finds a different verb <Sense = to take away <take out)> used with Holy Spirit. Bible Sense Lexicon grandparent of <Sense = to take away <take out)> is <Sense to get (possession)> so a search modification is:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR (<Sense to be filled (supplied)> OR <Sense to get (possession)>)
Note: <Sense to be filled (supplied)> and <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> have the same results since "to be filled (supplied)" in Bible Sense Lexicon has no children senses. Removing = changes search to default ~ that includes children, grand-children, great grand-children, ...
Right click on Psalms 51:11 includes cultural concept
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>}
that includes many Old Testament verses. Search refinement using INTERSECTS finds words that have both cultural concept AND Holy Spirit:
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>} INTERSECTS <Person Holy Spirit>
whose results include two Old Testament verses: Ps 51:11 and Ps 139:7 so found <Sense = to go (travel)> that has children for search expansion:
Simple Old Testament Search is:
that has many verses. Genesis 41:38 has another verb <Sense = to find (perceive)> whose grandparent is <Sense to perceive>
Exodus 31:3 has <Sense = to fill> whose grandparent is <Sense to cause (to happen)>
1 Chronicles 12:18 has <Sense = to clothe (cover)> whose grandparent is <Sense to touch>
Nehemiah 9:20 has <Sense = to give> whose parent is <Sense to act>
Isaiah 11:2 has <Sense = to rest (movement)> that has two children
Isaiah 32:15 has <Sense = to be poured out (expressed)> that has no parents nor children so also used = with to be filled (supplied) for reminder of no parents nor children senses:
Dragged search tab to a folder in Favorites for future reuse.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Consulting topical Bibles and other thematic resources (run Factbook or Topic Guide) can help spot passages you may have missed with the search approach.
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Francis said:
<Person Holy Spirit> AND <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> for an example of a more specific search (the work of the Spirit of course includes other effects than "filling").
AND finds verses that have both search items so one search refinement can be NEAR:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR <Sense = to be filled (supplied)>
that only finds results in the New Testament (like AND example)
Deacon Steve said:Saying it another way; what is the work of the Holy Spirit in specific events or lives of persons in the Old Testament?
Going to Psalms 51:11 finds a different verb <Sense = to take away <take out)> used with Holy Spirit. Bible Sense Lexicon grandparent of <Sense = to take away <take out)> is <Sense to get (possession)> so a search modification is:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR (<Sense to be filled (supplied)> OR <Sense to get (possession)>)
Note: <Sense to be filled (supplied)> and <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> have the same results since "to be filled (supplied)" in Bible Sense Lexicon has no children senses. Removing = changes search to default ~ that includes children, grand-children, great grand-children, ...
Right click on Psalms 51:11 includes cultural concept
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>}
that includes many Old Testament verses. Search refinement using INTERSECTS finds words that have both cultural concept AND Holy Spirit:
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>} INTERSECTS <Person Holy Spirit>
whose results include two Old Testament verses: Ps 51:11 and Ps 139:7 so found <Sense = to go (travel)> that has children for search expansion:
Simple Old Testament Search is:
that has many verses. Genesis 41:38 has another verb <Sense = to find (perceive)> whose grandparent is <Sense to perceive>
Exodus 31:3 has <Sense = to fill> whose grandparent is <Sense to cause (to happen)>
1 Chronicles 12:18 has <Sense = to clothe (cover)> whose grandparent is <Sense to touch>
Nehemiah 9:20 has <Sense = to give> whose parent is <Sense to act>
Isaiah 11:2 has <Sense = to rest (movement)> that has two children
Isaiah 32:15 has <Sense = to be poured out (expressed)> that has no parents nor children so also used = with to be filled (supplied) for reminder of no parents nor children senses:
Dragged search tab to a folder in Favorites for future reuse.
Keep Smiling
Thank you Keep Smiling for posting these search codes!
Now, this serves as a clear example of how complex searching is! Look at all the options!
Where did keep smiling get this information?
How do we know which characters need to be used?
How do we know this <sense to cause (to happen)> works? And where do we learn this is the right combination to get the search to work?
How did keep smiling figure out to save the search tab for future use? Could it be that there is no realistic way to memorize all these characters and key words to use them in different searches?
The point? Please make searches less complicated, please listen FL and please do something about it! This is a plead for help to resolve this horrible way of putting together this seaches that shouldn’t have to be this complicated to perform.
Thanks!
DAL
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Cumulative search strings may not be always the best approach.
To reproduce the building of this search (for another search), one would have to examine each known passage's tagging in an attempt to find all other similar passages. This does not guarantee finding all the relevant passages since one may not think of a passage that has tagging that differs from those found. For instance, the opening verses of Isaiah 61 are not found by this string nor are any of the references to the charismatic empowerment of judges in Judges.
Rather than save this search, I would be more inclined to (1) Search for references to the Holy Spirit (lemma OR <Person Holy Spirit>), (2) Export to a passage list, (3) Skim and delete irrelevant passages and (4) Save the Passage List. While there is considerable work involved here too, the cumulative search string also requires lots of preliminary work and the results still need to be examined for relevance.
Another approach yet, which may be more attractive to some, is to use the Bible Browser. Start with "People: Holy Spirit" and then explore other criteria you can add to narrow down passages (for instance, look under Preaching Themes and Topics).
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<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR (<Sense = to be filled (supplied)> OR <Sense to get (possession)> OR <Sense to go (travel)> OR <Sense to perceive> OR <Sense to cause (to happen)> OR <Sense to touch> OR <Sense to act> OR <Sense to rest (movement)> OR <Sense = to be poured out (expressed)>)
Reviewing Bible results found more verb senses near Holy Spirit
Also found Cultural Concept of Indwelling Spirit
{Section <Culture Indwelling spirit>}
whose results include several verses that lacks <Person Holy Spirit> tagging.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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DAL said:
Where did keep smiling get this information?
Reading, practice, repetition: Thankful for forum/Faithlife discussions, Help, Logos Wiki, training courses, & videos [:D]
DAL said:How do we know this <sense to cause (to happen)> works?
Thanks to MVP example (Mark Barnes), now like using Bold text for searches that have URL link so you can try them in your Logos/Verbum application OR Web App: e.g.
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR <Sense to cause (to happen)>
DAL said:And where do we learn this is the right combination to get the search to work?
Along with working is reviewing results to see if research question was answered (OR is something missing).
DAL said:How did keep smiling figure out to save the search tab for future use?
Thankful for forum discussion about Favorites years ago.
DAL said:Could it be that there is no realistic way to memorize all these characters and key words to use them in different searches?
Depends on person for memorizing search characters and key words (along with methodology for creating complex searches).
DAL said:The point? Please make searches less complicated, please listen FL and please do something about it! This is a plead for help to resolve this horrible way of putting together this seaches that shouldn’t have to be this complicated to perform.
Thread => Logos 8 Wishlist has my 22 Sep 2017 reply => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/148421/923667.aspx#923667 that included:
- Search builder that highlights unrecognized term(s): e.g. missing parenthesis. Ideally with option to enable OR disable automatic completion.
- Search term browser with range of valid values. Many resources have their own data type, which can be challenging to build search for various section(s). Another example is labels and sections having many values. At times would like a Concordance capability for search values that shows how many for a particular value, ideally with option to enable OR disable count as desired.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I am grateful for the experts here. I would not be able to figure this out on my own. Thanks. [:)]
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Also found Cultural Concept of Indwelling Spirit
{Section <Culture Indwelling spirit>}
whose results include several verses that lacks <Person Holy Spirit> tagging.
This search can be expanded a bit:
Also found verses that do not have Cultural Concept tagging.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Francis said:
I'll show you how to fish rather than give you the fish. This method is applicable to any (relatively simple) search you want to do:
1. Find a passage that is like what you are looking for. In this case, a passage that indicates the work of the Spirit (early chapters of Luke, many in Acts, etc.).
2. Right-click on a verse that contains what you look for and explore the context menu for things you can search for. Remember that any item that has a small arrow next to it (in the right pane) can be expanded to reveal more.
3. Once you find something that could do the trick (e.g., the lemma for Spirit or "Holy Spirit" as a preaching theme or person -- there's even a topic called "influence of gods and spirits on persons"), click on that and select what you want to search on the left pane (everything, this resource, all resources, etc.).
This method will give you a head start on many searches and give you ideas you may not even be thinking about. Once a search is generated you can copy and paste the search string to combine with other search criteria if you want. For instance, you may generate a <Person Holy Spirit> search from the context menu, then generate another search from the same passage such as <Sense = to be filled (supplied)>, then cut and paste to combine:
<Person Holy Spirit> AND <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> for an example of a more specific search (the work of the Spirit of course includes other effects than "filling").
Fab-YOU-lous! Thanks!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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DAL said:Francis said:
<Person Holy Spirit> AND <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> for an example of a more specific search (the work of the Spirit of course includes other effects than "filling").
AND finds verses that have both search items so one search refinement can be NEAR:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR <Sense = to be filled (supplied)>
that only finds results in the New Testament (like AND example)
Deacon Steve said:Saying it another way; what is the work of the Holy Spirit in specific events or lives of persons in the Old Testament?
Going to Psalms 51:11 finds a different verb <Sense = to take away <take out)> used with Holy Spirit. Bible Sense Lexicon grandparent of <Sense = to take away <take out)> is <Sense to get (possession)> so a search modification is:
<Person Holy Spirit> NEAR (<Sense to be filled (supplied)> OR <Sense to get (possession)>)
Note: <Sense to be filled (supplied)> and <Sense = to be filled (supplied)> have the same results since "to be filled (supplied)" in Bible Sense Lexicon has no children senses. Removing = changes search to default ~ that includes children, grand-children, great grand-children, ...
Right click on Psalms 51:11 includes cultural concept
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>}
that includes many Old Testament verses. Search refinement using INTERSECTS finds words that have both cultural concept AND Holy Spirit:
{Section <Culture Presence of the Lord>} INTERSECTS <Person Holy Spirit>
whose results include two Old Testament verses: Ps 51:11 and Ps 139:7 so found <Sense = to go (travel)> that has children for search expansion:
Simple Old Testament Search is:
that has many verses. Genesis 41:38 has another verb <Sense = to find (perceive)> whose grandparent is <Sense to perceive>
Exodus 31:3 has <Sense = to fill> whose grandparent is <Sense to cause (to happen)>
1 Chronicles 12:18 has <Sense = to clothe (cover)> whose grandparent is <Sense to touch>
Nehemiah 9:20 has <Sense = to give> whose parent is <Sense to act>
Isaiah 11:2 has <Sense = to rest (movement)> that has two children
Isaiah 32:15 has <Sense = to be poured out (expressed)> that has no parents nor children so also used = with to be filled (supplied) for reminder of no parents nor children senses:
Dragged search tab to a folder in Favorites for future reuse.
Keep Smiling
Thank you Keep Smiling for posting these search codes!
Now, this serves as a clear example of how complex searching is! Look at all the options!
Where did keep smiling get this information?
How do we know which characters need to be used?
How do we know this <sense to cause (to happen)> works? And where do we learn this is the right combination to get the search to work?
How did keep smiling figure out to save the search tab for future use? Could it be that there is no realistic way to memorize all these characters and key words to use them in different searches?
The point? Please make searches less complicated, please listen FL and please do something about it! This is a plead for help to resolve this horrible way of putting together this seaches that shouldn’t have to be this complicated to perform.
Thanks!
DAL
Yup! What DAL said!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Francis said:
Cumulative search strings may not be always the best approach.
To reproduce the building of this search (for another search), one would have to examine each known passage's tagging in an attempt to find all other similar passages. This does not guarantee finding all the relevant passages since one may not think of a passage that has tagging that differs from those found. For instance, the opening verses of Isaiah 61 are not found by this string nor are any of the references to the charismatic empowerment of judges in Judges.
Rather than save this search, I would be more inclined to (1) Search for references to the Holy Spirit (lemma OR <Person Holy Spirit>), (2) Export to a passage list, (3) Skim and delete irrelevant passages and (4) Save the Passage List. While there is considerable work involved here too, the cumulative search string also requires lots of preliminary work and the results still need to be examined for relevance.
Another approach yet, which may be more attractive to some, is to use the Bible Browser. Start with "People: Holy Spirit" and then explore other criteria you can add to narrow down passages (for instance, look under Preaching Themes and Topics).
Francis! I LOVE this approach, along with your :"fishing lessons" as above. I can think of a couple things to say here but I'll stick with what impresses me the most here (AFTER the obvious, which is that I don't have to know computer jargon and formulas to search my books), is what you posted for numbers three and four above.
Part of learning Scripture is interacting with it. I would MUCH rather skim and delete irrelevant passages than figure out search strings. In skimming and deleting irrelevant passages, I'm STILL interacting with the Scripture, even if the verses aren't fitting my exact need. In figuring out search strings, that's all I'm doing...working with perfecting search strings (which clearly is IMPOSSIBLE).
Thank you for your two direct approach fishing lesson posts above. They are great for people like me!
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
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Cynthia in Florida said:
Part of learning Scripture is interacting with it. I would MUCH rather skim and delete irrelevant passages than figure out search strings. In skimming and deleting irrelevant passages, I'm STILL interacting with the Scripture, even if the verses aren't fitting my exact need. In figuring out search strings, that's all I'm doing...working with perfecting search strings (which clearly is IMPOSSIBLE).
Personally like working with search strings as a way to detect what is in Scripture (along with learning tagging).
Like using Visual Filters to combine hundreds/thousands of search results for simultaneous display so can look for more to jump out from Scriptures. Also appreciate ability to turn off visual filters so can focus again on plain text.
For Passage List, could be useful to remember what human filter(s) were used so can redo list in future with human filter change(s).
Also Thankful for Francis fishing approach plus humanly know my search examples are incomplete for showing "Action of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament" so time for fishing equipment change: God, please open the eyes of my heart ...
Search for <Person Holy Spirit> has no results in Judges. NIV 2011 has "Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah." in Judges 11:29
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thank you ALL!!!!!!
Wow.I can't help thinking how wonderful it would be to have the skill set to complete these searches. Posts like this get me a few steps closer.
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How did the holy spirit helped people to grow spiritually during old testament period?
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While there is lots of useful feedback in this thread, in a case like this your best option is probably just to run a simple search for <Person Holy Spirit> in the Old Testament.
There are 34 results in 28 verses that we've tagged as referring to the Holy Spirit. Trying to figure out all the right senses to include to narrow down your results would take much longer for the average user than just reading the 28 verses and manually filtering down the list to the relevant passages.
Logos is a very powerful program, but in some cases it's best to keep it simple. Start with the easiest/broadest approach. Additional narrowing is necessary only when the number of results is unmanageable.
Here are the steps:
- Open the Search panel and switch to the Bible search type.
- Change All Passages to Old Testament.
- Type Holy Spirit in the search box.
- Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
- Run your search.
- Read your results.
Edit: I see Francis gave basically this same approach above and helpfully recommends the use of a passage list to keep track of the relevant results.
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The Holy Spirit is present in the Old Testament more than first glance might indicate. He's like a good bass player; keeping everything moving without hogging the limelight!
So given that the witness of Num 11:26-29, Zech 7:12, and 1 Peter 1:10-11 (among others) indicate that the prophets in the Old Testament spoke by the Holy Spirit, any search for the Holy Spirit interacting with people in the Old Testament might want to include this too:
{Section <Culture Prophesying>} INTERSECTS {Label Prophet}
the above will give examples of Prophets speaking messages from God, often with the indication that it was because the 'Word of the Lord came upon' them or 'to them' - a function of the Spirit in the Old Testament.
Building upon this, assuming you have the capabilities to do so, a Morph search for דְבַר־יְהוָה֙ (The Word of the Lord) is also illuminative for the same reasons.
Both examples are a little ham-fisted and nowhere near as polished as those above, but I hope they help nonetheless.
Carpe verbum.
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Search for <Person Holy Spirit> has no results in Judges. NIV 2011 has "Then the Spirit of the Lord came on Jephthah." in Judges 11:29
Expanded <Person Holy Spirit> search with word phrases for a variety of English Translations:
that finds many verses lacking person tagging. Thankful for search results having different colors so can distinguish person tagging and phrase results.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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The complexity of these searches is increasingly frustrating to me. Yes, the software is powerful... But the power is lost in the bulk of users (like me) who will never learn the syntax. I *really* hope the request for a search builder tool is being heard.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Here are the steps:
- Open the Search panel and switch to the Bible search type.
- Change All Passages to Old Testament.
- Type Holy Spirit in the search box.
- Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
- Run your search.
- Read your results.
I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu. I am missing something. Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?
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hey just curious but how do you get that signature in your post at the end?
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Nick said:
The complexity of these searches is increasingly frustrating to me.
What is frustrating to me is that it can be done. Given that it is interpretation, reading the Old Testament as foreshadowing through the lens of the New Testament, I see it as a place Faithlife is telling me how to read the text rather than simply presenting me with the text. Were I Jewish or non-Trinitarian, I would not be happy.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
What is frustrating to me is that it can be done. Given that it is interpretation, reading the Old Testament as foreshadowing through the lens of the New Testament, I see it as a place Faithlife is telling me how to read the text rather than simply presenting me with the text. Were I Jewish or non-Trinitarian, I would not be happy.
This occurred to me as well. I wonder if there's a set policy for how interpretational issues should be handled. Is it better to stick to explicit references or to try to represent a broad number of interpretational traditions? Is Faithlife approaching this in an organized, intentional manner, or is it haphazard?
Often results are library based. Does base package tradition influence results?
The complexity of trying to accommodate the the virtually unlimited number of interpretive options is overwhelming.
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MJ. Smith said:
What is frustrating to me is that it can be done.
I'd rather see more tagging (increasing the value), rather than less tagging (to avoid differences in interpretation).
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Deacon Steve said:
I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu. I am missing something. Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?
Hmm. You should be seeing this:
When you click on it, it will update your search term to <Person Holy Spirit>.
What version and base package level do you have?
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PetahChristian said:
I'd rather see more tagging (increasing the value), rather than less tagging (to avoid differences in interpretation).
I've been going through my "people of the Bible" resources giving them Community Tags - you likely can see my work in your Factbook. Even there, I find that Faithlife's smoothing of the data by choosing a particular genealogy to be primary or to conflate people who may or may not be the same person decreases the value - I have to work harder to find that everyone under a person tag may not be the same person. Or when alternative names/spellings are not present I often have to scan a Biblical text to find the right Factbook entry. Or mouse over information is incompatible with the passage tagged ...I'd rather see tagging I can trust, which preserves the complexity of the text. You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.
Please illustrate with some concepts, and clarify how you "summarily dismiss" tags?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Deacon Steve said:
I'm not seeing "Holy Spirit Supernatural being" in an autocomplete menu. I am missing something. Should it pop up when I type Holy Spirit?
Hmm. You should be seeing this:
….
When you click on it, it will update your search term to <Person Holy Spirit>.
….
What version and base package level do you have?
Phil, I am seeing it now. Not sure what I may have been doing last night - maybe clicking away from the search box thinking it would have populated the autocomplete menu sooner. (I have an older computer with a standard HDD.) I let it process longer this morning and it did come up. I am seeing the same as what you posted.
I have a Verbum Portfolio base package. Version info:
Verbum 7.16
7.16.0.0012Thanks for your help … everyone's help [:)]
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MJ, despite attempts to diversify and reach out to different crowds, Logos products are not neutrally and non-confessionally academic. One may wish it to be different, others will welcome it, but in any case, it is part of the company's history and identity.
This being said, there is no true "neutral" approach to the Bible and it would be quite a challenge to tag the Bible "neutrally" unless one solely keeps to semantic and syntactical searches (and even then subjective interpretation often informed by confession can creep in). I am not Catholic but I consult some Catholic commentaries and make abstraction of what I consider Catholic bias when I encounter it. Or I could insist that such resources should not be made available at all. I think that to insist on neutering tags would be in essence the same thing and would probably result in more loss than gain. I prefer the idea of using with caution and awareness of limitations. To be sure, many users will continue to use material as if these caveats did not apply, but I don't think it can be helped.
But this, of course, is a much broader topic than what the OP asked for.
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Dave Hooton said:MJ. Smith said:
You can guess my opinion of texts tagged with concepts that did not exist at the time the text was written .... I do a lot of summarily dismissing the tags in certain areas.
Please illustrate with some concepts, and clarify how you "summarily dismiss" tags?
The most relevant example would be any tag of the Holy Spirit in the Hebrew Scripture. For the literal meaning of the Old Testament, I like to first read it as a Jew would read it - then read it through the lens of the Cross as Alexander Schmemann puts it. That is not to say that the Holy Spirit is not in the Old Testament, only that (a) it is too easy to apply concepts asynchronously and (b) that a concept cannot be explicit in a text before the concept exists although it can be foreshadowed, hints of the need for the concept exposed. A second example would be the tagging of the two creation of humanity accounts in Gen 1 and 2 which are tagged in a manner than harmonizes the two versions. A third example would be Theme tags simply because they slice and dice topics in different ways than I do. Unfortunately, I don't recall the 2 examples I ran into on Tuesday.
I generally don't mention it - it's simply a given of Logos software. But it does disturb me when users assume they ought to be able to search the text for something that cannot be done on the text itself. Using tags that interpret is just fine as long as you recognize that is what you are doing and you find them useful.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Francis said:
MJ, despite attempts to diversify and reach out to different crowds, Logos products are not neutrally and non-confessionally academic. One may wish it to be different, others will welcome it, but in any case, it is part of the company's history and identity.
This being said, there is no true "neutral" approach to the Bible and it would be quite a challenge to tag the Bible "neutrally" unless one solely keeps to semantic and syntactical searches (and even then subjective interpretation often informed by confession can creep in).
I basically agree with you although I do believe Logos could do a bit better at leaving the difficulties of the text visible rather than harmonizing them. My point was not that Logos should change but rather that the user should be aware.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
4. Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?
"I read dead people..."
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Brother Mark said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
4. Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?
"She was filled with a holy spirit."
"She was filled with the Holy Spirit."
It is useful for the program to know that the term you're searching for is an entity instead of a descriptive phrase.
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Brother Mark said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
4. Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?
That's not a logically necessary inference. The item in gray following the main item is a descriptor or sub-category. The presence of the descriptor doesn't necessarily imply that another version of that entity exists to whom that descriptor doesn't apply.
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Francis said:
Can you provide a couple specific examples of how harmonisation is proposed and what you think would be a better alternative?
Will do tomorrow - I spent today babysitting a 2-year-old rambunctious grandson.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Brother Mark said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
4. Select Holy Spirit Supernatural being from the autocomplete menu.
So... by inference there is a Holy Spirit that is NOT a Supernatural being?
No, just as "Eve woman" does not infer that there's an Eve's who's a man. All Biblical People in Logos have identifiers such as this. It's usually "man or "woman", but you sometimes have "ethnic group", or "group of people", or "angel" or "supernatural being".
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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To clarify further what Phil and Mark wrote: the category helps to classify the item with other similar items in the same category (or at least to ascribe it some sort of classification).
So if you type "supernatural being" in the search field, wait for it to give you a list of suggestions and browse through it looking the "person" icon, you will find that there are others beside the Holy Spirit (e.g., demons a.k.a evil/unclean spirits, etc).
This in turn can be used in other tools, for instance, type "supernatural being" in the Bible Browser and look under people or other categories for possibilities.
In the case of Spirit/spirit, many passages that would appear to refer to the Holy Spirit do not necessarily use the full expression. Since the word spirit can have another referent beside a supernatural being (e.g., in the phrase, body, spirit, and soul), the tagging helps identify the passages interpreted as referring to the Holy Spirit and not to some other spirit (or just wind).
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Francis said:
Can you provide a couple specific examples of how harmonisation is proposed and what you think would be a better alternative?
Sorry I don't have a better list but it isn't as if I keep a list of such problems.
Example 1: Gen 1:27, Gen 2:7 and Adam the tagging hides the fact that all 3 refer to "adam/Adam/earth man" which makes it difficult to understand the Talmud and Philo references to the 2 Adams, to see Paul's Adam/Christ as part of a continuing tradition, or even understand the debate on the translation of the Nicene creed when framed in human=humus vs. man=mental. Solution is a simple parenthetical "earth-man".
Example 2: When incompatible genealogies are given in scripture, show both in the pop-up window with a pipe between them. As it is, you get a mouse over that provides information that contradicts the scripture you are reading. See SUGGESTION/DATA confusion - LXX vs. Masoretic
Example 3: LXX and Critical Text are tagged but apparently not a Masoretic text as this Jonathan is not represented in the LCV as far as I can tell:"7. (Jeremiah 40:8). 6th century B.C.E. Jonathan and his brother Johanan, sons of Kareah, were among the captains of the defeated army of Judah who came to Gedaliah, the Babylonian-appointed governor, to be assured by him that everything would be well if they served the king of Babylon." David Mandel, Who’s Who in the Jewish Bible (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society, 2007), 217.
Example 4: Shimeath is treated as male without noting the textual ambiguity re: gender DATA BUG: Good job tricking me with a female dressed as a male i.e. Shimeath There are other examples of where the text may be read either as referring to an individual or a group, where individuals are conflated against the practice of several major Bible dictionaries ...
Note this has nothing to do with denominational theological differences. It has everything to do with spending time with the text itself not with what others say about the text. These "piddling" difficulties in the Scripture are the training ground for how to handle the more serious ones.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks MJ for taking the time to detail these examples.
Makes one wonder if these examples represent deliberate choices from Faithlife as much as shortcuts. I am not sure who is responsible for tagging and whether they are aware in every case of the sort of ambiguities you listed. Much of what I read from your examples is that you want tagging to reflect the options presented by ambiguities and sometimes multivalence of the text. Seems fair enough. Chances are, however, that this would open a can of worm in terms of support: the many users who are used to read their Bibles at surface level and traditionally might complain that this is confusing or even blame Faithlife by reading too much theology in such an approach (e.g., historical Adam type of questions). I must confess that I don't have a clear view of what would be a better tomorrow as far these issues go. But given that you are a constant advocate concerning similar issues, I am sure that Faithlife monitors what you write and discusses it.
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Francis said:
I am not sure who is responsible for tagging and whether they are aware in every case of the sort of ambiguities you listed. Much of what I read from your examples is that you want tagging to reflect the options presented by ambiguities and sometimes multivalence of the text.
It is my impression from posts by Sean, that Faithlife made design decisions to not allow for contradictions without recognizing the quantity of ambiguity they were ignoring. However, they appear to be very inconsistent in their choices e.g. 1 Chr 2:29 they code Machbenah as a place and Gibea as a person. I find dictionaries/commentaries that take both as place names or both as person names but .... I also find it annoying that many records lack the NRSV spelling of names so I have to check the coding in the NRSV to find the tag I need for the dictionary. I can find no pattern in when they do/don't note alternative names/spellings.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Considering that some of the tagging has been implemented in stages and is still ongoing, it might also be the case that something akin to the original work of the Septuagint translation of the Hebrew is taking place: inconsistencies across different contributors.
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That is very likely part of it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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There’s also the issue that for most datasets, Logos use the same data for all Bibles (i.e. if there is a textual difference between two manuscripts the same tagging will be used for both). I think it’s only lemmas, roots, Louw-Nida and Strong’s numbers are version-dependent. (I could be wrong about that, I don’t think it’s been precisely confirmed by Faithlife.)
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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