Touch Screen Support Still Missing
In regards to the Logos 8 Desktop app for Windows:
The new look and feel has been modernized and appears great overall.
However, I noticed the home screen and some other screens (i.e. program settings) still do not fully support touch screen input. Specifically lacking is touch scrolling. This was an oft requested feature in prior versions and in the Logos 8 wish list so it's highly disappointing to see the touch interface is still crippled in Logos 8. The only way to scroll the home page is with a mouse or to touch and drag the tiny area of the scrollbar. This is very annoying.
Also is there a way to see which list items from the Logos 8 wish list actually made it into the initial release of Logos 8? Is there a wiki page that has this information?
Comments
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That is disappointing to hear. Does touch work for highlighting and for the context menu?
I was particularly hoping for active pen use for highlighting.
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Thanks for your feedback. We do offer touch support on app.logos.com.
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Harry Hahne said:
That is disappointing to hear. Does touch work for highlighting and for the context menu?
I was particularly hoping for active pen use for highlighting.
I can hold down my finger to bring up the context menu and it highlights the whole verse which can then be highlighted with shortcuts. The context menu is responsive to touch. Cannot do word selection or partial verse selection with just my finger.
As far as active pen, on my tablet it was working with highlighting in L7 and still works in L8. Also with my pen I can do word and partial verse selection.
It would be very nice to see gesture support such as pinch and zoom to resize the content of a window.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
Thanks for your feedback. We do offer touch support on app.logos.com.
Thanks Daniel but I don't use app.logos.com.
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William Walker said:
As far as active pen, on my tablet it was working with highlighting in L7 and still works in L8. Also with my pen I can do word and partial verse selection.
That is good to hear. I gave up using the pen in Logos 7 in Windows because I found it could do some things, but not others. They must have improved these things along the way. I will revisit it, because I prefer to use a pen for notes and highlighting when I am reading.
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Any news about improvements to touch input will be posted to this suggestion: https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/619605-focus-on-tablet-and-touchscreen-features
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Harry Hahne said:William Walker said:
As far as active pen, on my tablet it was working with highlighting in L7 and still works in L8. Also with my pen I can do word and partial verse selection.
That is good to hear. I gave up using the pen in Logos 7 in Windows because I found it could do some things, but not others. They must have improved these things along the way. I will revisit it, because I prefer to use a pen for notes and highlighting when I am reading.
Harry, let me know if you have a different experience with your pen or any specific questions about how I use mine.
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Any news about improvements to touch input will be posted to this suggestion: https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-6/suggestions/619605-focus-on-tablet-and-touchscreen-features
Thank you Bradley.
That suggestion thread has been around for a REALLY LONG time. Do you have any input as to whether this is actively being worked on or waiting for more votes? I'm a very happy Logos user, but at this point my perception is that FL is not listening to its user base about the need for a fully baked implementation of touch input. I would appreciate a reasoned response from FL regarding this issue instead of referring to the suggestion thread.
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William Walker said:
Harry, let me know if you have a different experience with your pen or any specific questions about how I use mine
I just gave it a try again. I can select text with a swipe of the pen, which is great. Long press to get context menu works.
Word selection is erratic -- sometimes a long hold selects the whole word (which I would expect), sometimes just part of the word or several words.
It is still clunky to highlight text, since I have to select, then do a long press and and find highlight in the context menu. This is easier on my Android tablet, but not as smooth as the Kindle app.
I could not find any way to select a tab and move it to a new panel. I expected to long press on the tab and drag it somewhere. That is a common task for me.
This is in Logos 7.19. Is it better in Logos 8?
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Harry Hahne said:
This is in Logos 7.19. Is it better in Logos 8?
Unfortunately, no changes to this were made in Logos 8. I would expect it to behave the same.
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I would just like to be able to scroll the home page with the touchscreen...with my finger. I just want to scroll, that's all. That can't be too hard. People have been asking for this for years, I'm very surprised it's not a part of Logos 8. People are used to interacting with touchscreens these days, it's not like it's new technology.
I just wanna scroll the home page with the touchscreen, is that too much to ask? Especially since you've moved to this new card interface, it seems like touchscreens conceptually go hand and hand with that type of interface.
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Alan Palmer (Faithlife) said:Harry Hahne said:
This is in Logos 7.19. Is it better in Logos 8?
Unfortunately, no changes to this were made in Logos 8. I would expect it to behave the same.
Harry, that is my experience as well that there is no difference between L7 and L8. Unfortunately the behavior you are experiencing in L7 is as good as it gets for now.
Alan, thank you for confirming that no changes were made. Can FL please give a reasoned response as to why this issue has not been fixed and what future plans are for fixing if any? Touch is a pretty common sense feature to support so not sure why it continues to be an issue. It's not like touch based computers are going away anytime soon. It was a common request in the Logos 8 wish list thread as well.
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Kiyah said:
I would just like to be able to scroll the home page with the touchscreen...with my finger. I just want to scroll, that's all. That can't be too hard. People have been asking for this for years, I'm very surprised it's not a part of Logos 8. People are used to interacting with touchscreens these days, it's not like it's new technology.
I just wanna scroll the home page with the touchscreen, is that too much to ask? Especially since you've moved to this new card interface, it seems like touchscreens conceptually go hand and hand with that type of interface.
Well said.
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As you've mentioned, people are using more touch devices than ever before.
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.
The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
As you've mentioned, people are using more touch devices than ever before.
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.
The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.
Out of interest Daniel
How do you collect data on touch screen usage? I have one, just wondered if your data would have captured that as I have never expressed an interest in touch screen support.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.
And yet it has been the #3 most voted request in User Voice for years. [;)]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
As you've mentioned, people are using more touch devices than ever before.
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.
The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.
Um...So nobody is buying Surface tablets (which can run the full desktop app)? No one but me is buying 2-in-1 laptops? They certainly have a lot of those for sale at Best Buy. One wonders why stores like Best Buy keep offering them if no one is buying them. The Windows displays at my seminary library are all Dell touch-screen displays. Windows 8 and 10 are completely designed to facilitate touch functionality, Microsoft Office has an actual Touch Screen Mode that makes the buttons easier to push with your finger. But I guess Microsoft is wasting resources because nobody is taking advantage of this functionality.
Sorry for the sarcasm but it's a bit frustrating to hear Logos say they're not investing in touch-screen functionality in this day and age. It seems out of touch (no pun intended) to me. I prefer to use my laptop to use Logos because of the full functionality (sans-touch) and the power of my laptop hardware. I have a 2-in-1 laptop with a touch screen and as I said above, if I could just scroll the home page with my finger that would make me happy. I can see if you don't want to totally redo the desktop app, but can't you just make the home page scroll-able with touch? That's all I ask.
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Look, here's a Logos user inquiring about Surface Pro specs to get for use with Logos just yesterday.
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Kiyah said:
But I guess Microsoft is wasting resources because nobody is taking advantage of this functionality.
I suspect that the Apple/Microsoft divide is alive and well in some circles. When (if?) Apple ever makes a touch-enabled MacBook, then Logos will magically start to see the need that so many of us have expressed for so long.
I find it especially ironic that the new canvas tool imitates touch interaction rather than actually incorporating touch/pen features
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:Kiyah said:
But I guess Microsoft is wasting resources because nobody is taking advantage of this functionality.
I suspect that the Apple/Microsoft divide is alive and well in some circles. When (if?) Apple ever makes a touch-enabled MacBook, then Logos will magically start to see the need that so many of us have expressed for so long.
I agree. Problem is I wonder if Apple doesn't want to make a touch-enabled MacBook because maybe they're afraid they would cannibalize iPad sales. But it would be interesting to know what percentage of Logos users are Mac users. I would think there would still be a ton of Windows users since Logos was historically only available on Windows, unless a lot of those historical users have switched to using their touch-less MacBooks or their iPads.
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What is most aggravating to me about the current implementation of touch support is that it is so inconsistent. Resource scroll and swipe pretty well. The home page, search results, reports, etc. do not support touch at all (except by tapping/dragging scrollbars). As a user, it forces me to keep track of what parts of the interface I can control with different input methods. Or, as more often happens, I forget and attempt to interact naturally with the interface, fail, grumble, and work around it. It's quite disruptive.
Windows tablets like the Surface Pro are outstanding companions for Bible study. They feel much more personal and immediate, especially when using a digital pen, than sitting at a desktop or laptop. I study in tablet mode almost exclusively, even despite Logos' current limitations. With a little spit and polish, Logos could really shine on these devices.
This is a missed opportunity - the next generation of promotional videos from Logos really should feature fewer Macbooks and shift toward users blending ancient analog and modern digital methods of study in a single tool: Tablet-enabled Logos 9. (Although 8.1 would be a better goal!)
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At the very end of Logos 4 pen support was working and that included the ability to write notes. I believe it was early in Logos 5 that it went away. Outside of the notes program I can scroll and get my virtual keyboard to pop up and use my pen to enter a new reference. This continues in Logos 8. Touch and pen support continues to be enabled in logos 8 when it comes to the use of resources.
It seems to be the addon programs that are the problem. For me the notes program is the biggest problem. Currently in the notes program I can still use touch to access menus. Now with 8 we lost the ability to scroll. I have taught for years scrolling through my sermon and commentary notes and will now have to add a mouse to continue.
With love and limited knowledge. I do not believe that it is a matter of investment but one of priority. I was disappointed with losing the ability to write notes with my pen years ago but to now not be able to scroll is really hard to digest.
What am I missing? Isn't this a background routine that is included with windows that needs to be accessed? Something like "on touch do" or "on pen do".
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Thank you for your response Daniel.
First off I want to stress that I'm a very happy FL user who is very frustrated about this issue. The following are my personal opinions only in regards to windows desktop touch support:
The touch issue is a blackeye on a great product. The desktop app is FL flagship product. The mobile and web apps keep improving and for now serve as "yes we can run on that platform too" products to fill a niche. I use the mobile app regularly and don't use the web app because it is online only as far as I know. I prefer to not have to be tethered to the internet to do my reading and studying.
FL seems to be out of touch with it's user base about this issue. I might be wrong but I would think your user base with windows touch devices is larger than you know. As far as those who actually use it regularly you may be correct that it's relatively small. But then again why would it be used regularly when it's broken.
Does FL have the goal to deprecate the desktop app and replace with the web app? If not then FL should either remove all touch support from the desktop app or fully implement it, but not leave it half-baked. What's frustrating is that it's a hit and miss as far as when we can use touch and when not. At least give us a consistent experience.
Another question that I'm curious about. How many FL staff use a windows touch device and how many in the L8 beta used a windows touch device? Have the touch inconsistencies gone unnoticed internally? Did they go unnoticed throughout the beta testing phase?
Curious about this as well. Does Bob (President) have and use a windows touch device for Logos? If he does not then I am offering to purchase a Surface GO tablet for him so he can join in our experience. [:)] (I'm serious about the offer)Kiyah said:
I would just like to be able to scroll the home page with the touchscreen...with my finger. I just want to scroll, that's all. That can't be too hard. People have been asking for this for years, I'm very surprised it's not a part of Logos 8.
I believe Kiyah and Bob express the common sentiment of expecting touch to work the same throughout the desktop app experience. It's very frustrating to have it work in some areas but not in others.Bob Schaefer said:
What is most aggravating to me about the current implementation of touch support is that it is so inconsistent. Resource scroll and swipe pretty well. The home page, search results, reports, etc. do not support touch at all (except by tapping/dragging scrollbars). As a user, it forces me to keep track of what parts of the interface I can control with different input methods. Or, as more often happens, I forget and attempt to interact naturally with the interface, fail, grumble, and work around it. It's quite disruptive.
Okay...Daniel Di Bartolo said:
The primary reason we have not invested in touch support for desktop is because a low percentage of our user base uses touch-enabled Windows devices. I'm sorry that we haven't been able to invest in this area yet.
I'm curious as well. Though I know it would not be all inclusive I will post another thread polling how many forum users have a windows touch device and whether or not they use or would use touch input for the desktop app if they know it's available. I think that would be good for all of us to know even if FL already has those numbers.Graham Owen said:
Out of interest Daniel
How do you collect data on touch screen usage? I have one, just wondered if your data would have captured that as I have never expressed an interest in touch screen support.
Can you please explain who the target audience is for touch support in the web app? The only serious option is windows touch enabled devices (tablets, laptops, desktops). The iOS mobile app covers the iPhone and iPad users. The android mobile app covers android phones and tablets. Let me know if I'm wrong and there is some other target device for web app touch support. If that is the case then FL is essentially making touch improvements for windows touch devices while ignoring their flagship desktop app. Am I missing something?Daniel Di Bartolo said:
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.
My hope is that FL would take this issue seriously and have it fixed by the L8.1 release.
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Daniel Di Bartolo said:
Thanks for your feedback. We do offer touch support on app.logos.com.
I spent the afternoon working with the web app. I honestly haven't used it in a while and wanted to give it a try to see if I'm missing out.
While the app has improved quite a bit since the last time I looked at it (maybe a year ago) it has a long way to go to have parity with the desktop app.
Here are some hurdles to get over for me with the web app:
- I don't like working with apps in web browsers. They just don't offer a nice UI experience compared to a desktop app and provide at best a generic UI.
- It needs to function offline as well as online. I go door to door with my tablet as my bible and I can't depend on having internet access.
- I work a lot with saved layouts and it does not appear to me that is a feature available in the web app.
There are more but those are the most important ones.
Web App Advantages:
- All resources stored online.
- No need for local resource indexing.
Those advantages are not compelling enough on their own and improvements could be made in the desktop app to have selective resource install per device to limit downloading and indexing.
In my opinion while it's nice for FL to offer a web app I'm not quite sure why anyone would want to use it on a regular basis for anything but simple reading and looking up scriptures. I'd be interested to know who FL sees as the target audience for the web app? I personally see it stealing away developer resources for sorely needed features and fixes to your flagship desktop app like search, touch, etc.
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I am a Surface Pro and Surface Book user who would love to see the touch interface improved as well even though I've never said anything about it before. It does surprise me when I use those devices how lacking the touch interface is compared to say my Ipad app or my phone app.
Because of the limitations of the web app I use it mainly when I am on a computer that is not my own, for example at work. It is great to have a straightforward way to access my whole library and some great tools but it is still far from the full program installed on Windows.
I too am a happy Logos 8 user and very thankful for all the great tools but again the touch interface surprises me in a negative way when I use it on my Surface devices. Almost like in my subconscious it doesn't quite fit with how good the rest of the software is.
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Also I think it is great the FL apologized for this, we know it is not as if the staff are sitting around doing nothing. Logos 8 must have taken a lot of effort and hours by all the staff to get to its current state. But perhaps this could be a higher priority than it currently is.
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I guess all I can do it voice my opinion in threads like this as well. I have been waiting in the wings for decent touch screen support for my Surface device for years. I thought it was coming in Logos 8. FL user metrics would never capture a lost sale like me. I wonder how many people like that are out there?
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William Walker said:
Can you please explain who the target audience is for touch support in the web app? The only serious option is windows touch enabled devices (tablets, laptops, desktops). The iOS mobile app covers the iPhone and iPad users. The android mobile app covers android phones and tablets. Let me know if I'm wrong and there is some other target device for web app touch support. If that is the case then FL is essentially making touch improvements for windows touch devices while ignoring their flagship desktop app. Am I missing something?Daniel Di Bartolo said:
We support users who prefer touch in a couple of different ways. We offer our native mobile apps, and we have our web application. In the last 6 months, we've made multiple touch support improvements to the web app.Who is the target audience for touch support in the web app? What kind of machines? OS?
William Walker said:My hope is that FL would take this issue seriously and have it fixed by the L8.1 release.
Daniel, is this is a realistic possibility that the desktop touch issues get fixed in L8 near or far future?
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My guess? No, it is not realistic that FL will address it in the near future.
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JT (alabama24) said:
My guess? No, it is not realistic that FL will address it in the near future.
Thanks JT. In your opinion why is this issue lingering for so long?
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