Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.
It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
Thanks Phil
This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.
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Phil,
I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the Logos 7 feature I find myself missing the most is that the version 8 Passage Guide does not generate a hyperlink to the passage you are studying as the version 7 did. I did not realize how much I used this until it disappeared. Sure I can click the back arrow in my bible, but sometimes my study has taken me a half dozen or more clicks away from my original passage.
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Graham Owen said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.
It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
Thanks Phil
This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.
Phil, this is indeed a very helpful list. I have looked carefully but don't see any mention of the movement of the parallel resources button from left to right (https://community.logos.com/forums/p/174324/1010110.aspx#1010110) The change means this frequently-used button is not available in narrow windows. Is a return to the much more usable position on the left hand side being considered? It's currently a reason for me not to upgrade.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
support article: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
The problem with the Saints card is not well described ... probably because my first reports hadn't figured out the fundamental problem.
LOGOS 8 Saint resources are treated essentially as Daily Devotionals - lacking the date control (and hence, saint list control) of Logos 7 ... this is useful for personal devotions
LOGOS 7 Used a specific resource to index saint resources into a sanctoral (worship) cycle that was used to plan liturgies and worships. Along side the lectionary it allows for a complete planning of the worship service.
Two very different uses which could be combined, but if there is a choice, bringing back the liturgical use is of primary importance.
Solution 1:
- make Logos 8 function that works like a Daily Devotional with its own resource type that can be created in a PB
- restore the Logos 7 liturgical saints function - dates handled as for a lectionary - make it possible for people to create their own PB to handle other churches
Solution 2: (my personal preferred)
- let Logos 8 continue to function much like a Daily Devotional with dates handled as for a lectionary. Resequence the Saints calendar resource to be in date order rather than alphabetic sequence. Allow users to create their own PB resource following the Saints pattern to handle other churches.
Solution 3: (my personal second choice)
- let Logos 8 continue to work as it does - a daily devotional
- move the liturgical function into lectionary format - no years required as the cycle is based on (secular) calendar date. Move the index into the resources for the saints into Factbook. All saints in the Lectionary would need factbook entries that at least included a complete list of saints resources in which they appear
- Deprecate the Saints resource, having moved all the data into Factbook.
If I know which direction you are taking, I will start building a test PB for the Lutherans (ELCA and LCMS)
In all cases, it would be best if the ritual books (missal) and lectionary were linked to the saints calendar.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.
It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
Phil, that is perfect. Thank you so much for putting together for everyone.
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William Walker said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.
It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
Phil, that is perfect. Thank you so much for putting together for everyone.
Indeed this is helpful Phil. Thank you.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Phil Gons said:
It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.
I copied this url into my excel sheet on L8, to have it handy. But, its not live. How can I make it live??
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My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
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JoshInRI said:
My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
Perhaps a deeper look would be in order. Logos 8 is the most significant improvement since Logos 4. Check out Phil's recent summary of changes - https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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JoshInRI said:
My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
My advice is to actually use it, don't just give it a quick glance. MANY things have improved.
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JoshInRI said:
My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
Have you upgraded yet or are you still on 7.
I would agree that some of the "missing" features and changes in behaviour are adding unnecessary complexity in this initial release so waiting for Faithlife to make a few updates could make sense if you are not already using 8.
I don't think that the finished product will be more complex than 7 though. The real issue here is that 8 was released before it was ready and with inadequate documentation. The latter has been fixed, at least in part. 8 has been described as an Early Adopter version and I'd say that is fair. It still has some rough edges.
There are definitely some happy users here most of whom seem to have been Beta testers so they have had some time to get used to the changes. That does at least offer hope for the future even if some of their gushing enthusiasm is a bit frustrating at times.
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Bruce Dunning said:JoshInRI said:
My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
Perhaps a deeper look would be in order. Logos 8 is the most significant improvement since Logos 4. Check out Phil's recent summary of changes - https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372
I agree with JoshRI. After all the gushy reviews, I wasn't sure ... until I read Phil's list of changes that I assume are to match the web app. Then Keyah's screen copies of reduced space. Dave's comments on the tabs. I concluded, no need.
This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.
I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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JoshInRI said:
My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler. They added even more complexity imho. Sigh.
As someone who's been using Logos 8 for a long time now (back to the Alpha), you couldn't be more wrong.
It's certainly true that some things that are different, and it's even true that one or two simple tasks are now slightly harder to perform. But very, very many things are simpler:
- It's much easier for a beginner to find specific titles in their library.
- It's much easier to added shared documents to Logos.
- It's much easier for a beginner to study the Bible where they don't know were to start (thanks to Workflows).
- It's much easier to use individual guide sections (you no longer need to create custom guides)
- It's somewhat easier to do some moderately complex searches (thanks to search templates)
There's probably other things as well. But #3 is huge.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Denise said:
This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.
I think living with things the way they are is admirable and certainly less complicated.
Denise said:I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.
I knew that you were not interested in many of the features of Logos but I didn't realize just how negative you were toward recent developments. Of course I don't generally agree with your perspective which you are totally entitled to have but it does make me wonder why you spend so much time weighing in on these issues on the forums.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Bruce Dunning said:Denise said:
This is my first no feature upgrade. After two years of being unimpressed as a not-Nower, followed by un-Connected, I've been trained to enjoy things just being fine as they are.
I think living with things the way they are is admirable and certainly less complicated.
Denise said:I think if I paid good money for the 'stuff' I'd be more than un-impressed. Another 2 years of over-complicated searches, etc. What planet do they live on? They say their market is mainly pastors. Really? And the ios app as an '8' ... that's hilarious. It barely can do basic reader things.
I knew that you were not interested in many of the features of Logos but I didn't realize just how negative you were toward recent developments. Of course I don't generally agree with your perspective which you are totally entitled to have but it does make me wonder why you spend so much time weighing in on these issues on the forums.
Bruce, you illustrate many of the issues that surround both Logos, and the forum.
I'll respond to your points:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church. Not just folks willing to spend hours and hours trying to learn it. I've no doubt pastors' use day in and out is fine. But JoshRI is by far a better representative of who I'm interested in helping. Or the folks that MJ tries to move forward. Or our Florida lady of enthusiasm and her brave warriors.
- Logos has spent umpteen dollars of customer funds to build data sets and more data sets, that remain of limited accessibility to normal folks .... certainly the pastors. Why? Search UI's have been around for decades. L4 was 2009. This is 2018. Do you see the problem?
- They delivered a changed UI, slightly faster, and a couple of major features, one of which 'may' have long term benefit to teaching. I'll bet you won't see the follow-up needed, either for Bible teaching, or the Catholic approach. Bet. They'll head for something else.
- And yes, I use a sardonic approach. But I'm beginning to see FL as the features company. It"s what they do. And maybe that's ok.
- Let me proceed a tiny bit more. Their number one advantage for a long time was their tagged library. But it's badly marketed, poorly organized, and minimally useful to the learning Bible student. Why? A good librarian could do far better.
So, yes, I agree with JoshRI. And I think something has gone wrong in River City. My guess is competition (labor cost pressures).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm a heavy user of the Passage Guide. Using the guide menu only opens up a blank passage guide that, when a passage is entered, all categories are expanded. In 7 and prior the guide menu would open up pre-populated according to the active passage window AND with categories expanded and collapsed according to the last use. I prefer all categories collapsed, and I expand them as needed. It's much cleaner looking and works faster. Now, to open up a passage guide that is 1)populated with the information from you active passage and 2)with categories collapsed and expanded the way it was last closed one needs to open it from within a passage (drag over passage and open a context menu, select the passage context, and select passage guide). It's quite a bit more clunky.
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Denise said:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.
Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.
So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Denise said:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.
Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.
So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.
I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.
And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:Bruce Dunning said:Denise said:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.
Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.
So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.
I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.
And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).
Isn't that kind of what the Faithlife Study Bible app is?
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Denise said:Bruce Dunning said:Denise said:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.
Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.
So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.
I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.
And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).
Those are reasonable suggestions.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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David Taylor Jr said:Denise said:
I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.
And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).
Isn't that kind of what the Faithlife Study Bible app is?
Not remotely. Nor is that FL's intent.
The easiest way to understand JoshRI's points is to sit in Bible classes, and literally watch the participants. Break it out by gender ... the two operate differently. I'm not FL, but I'd also encourage well-known teacher packages, again to ease the path of entry.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Matthew said:
I wish there was a "commentary picker" tool where I could easily pick my top five commentaries for each individual book of the Bible
I did this years ago by modifying Series settings. It took some time, but I can now have my top 4 commentaries on each book in a panel, and it follows (correctly) when I switch from book-to-book in the bible.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Matthew said:
I wish there was a "commentary picker" tool where I could easily pick my top five commentaries for each individual book of the Bible
I did this years ago by modifying Series settings. It took some time, but I can now have my top 4 commentaries on each book in a panel, and it follows (correctly) when I switch from book-to-book in the bible.
Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Mark Barnes said:
It's certainly true that some things that are different,
Just a side note, Mark, but one of the worst things you can do if you sell very complex software is to make things "different," especially if the software is a high-dollar investment that folks will hope to spend some hard time learning then use for years.
So "different" is a legitimate issue for many.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Bruce Dunning said:
Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.
Not easily. There was a thread with some detail, but it's been so long ago I may have trouble finding it. If I can, I'll post a link for you. If I can't, I'll try to write up a summary, hopefully able to remember all the details. [*-)]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Denise said:
Not remotely. Nor is that FL's intent.
The easiest way to understand JoshRI's points is to sit in Bible classes, and literally watch the participants. Break it out by gender ... the two operate differently. I'm not FL, but I'd also encourage well-known teacher packages, again to ease the path of entry.
Of course, I can't simply agree with Denise ... that would absolutely destroy my carefully cultivated reputation. [:P] I'm going to exaggerate the difference in "two schools" of Bible study. I'd say that when FL sits in a Bible class and watch, they need two very distinct types of Bible study classes - one that is sola scriptura, individual interpretation, hyper-literal and hyper-factual, guide for living ... one that is scripture/tradition/reason, interpretation within the church, Bible as narrative in the sense known at the time it was written, guide for spiritual growth.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Doc B said:
So "different" is a legitimate issue for many.
Whilst I 100% agree that "different" is a legitimate issue…
Doc B said:Just a side note, Mark, but one of the worst things you can do if you sell very complex software is to make things "different," especially if the software is a high-dollar investment that folks will hope to spend some hard time learning then use for years.
…I completely disagree with this.
Every single major developer of software has had to make significant changes to that software over its lifetime to keep it current (think Microsoft's Word's ribbon). If Faithlife hadn't done that, we'd still be using Libronix the Logos Library System on Windows 3.1. (Or you might be. I'd have jumped ship to Accordance, high-dollar investment or not.)
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.
Voicing disapproval, and appealing to Faithlife for change is perfectly legitimate, especially when a new major version has been released. But, once things have settled down, fighting against the system just isn't worth it. If we still want to be using Logos Bible Software in 2045 (and I'm planning to!), then just as Faithlife have to adapt, so do we.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Doc B said:Bruce Dunning said:
Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.
Not easily. There was a thread with some detail, but it's been so long ago I may have trouble finding it. If I can, I'll post a link for you. If I can't, I'll try to write up a summary, hopefully able to remember all the details.
Thanks Doc
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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