Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?

Daniel Di Bartolo said:

We're considering making a command to "Set preferred Bible to____" in the Go Box, which you could then save as a shortcut. That way, you could set up several shortcuts to change your preferred Bible with just a click. Do you think that would meet your needs?

Yes!  That would work for me 100%. Yet, I think basic users also need something better.

Richard Wardman said:

Daniel Di Bartolo said:

In terms of providing a quick way for users to change their preferred Bible from the Homepage, I'd love your feedback on a solution we're kicking the tires on. 

• We're considering making a command to "Set preferred Bible to____" in the Go Box, which you could then save as a shortcut. That way, you could set up several shortcuts to change your preferred Bible with just a click. Do you think that would meet your needs?

That would work for me! 

Works for me as well, although I'm hoping the command itself wouldn't require the entry of a Bible version name--that it would just pull up a list of Bibles from which I could choose the desired Bible.  Ideally, the list would be based on my Bible prioritization order if I have Bibles listed there.  Otherwise it could just be a list of the Bibles in my library, presented in alphabetical order. 

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife) said:

Mark Barnes said:

I want to do so because I use a different Bible in church/academic/devotional contexts.

Matthew said:

For my own personal study I prefer Bible A. One congregation I attend prefers that reading and teaching be done from Bible B. Another congregation I visit prefers that Bible C is used. When I go to a nursing home, they prefer Bible D.

Do you find that you're changing just your preferred Bible, or would there be other prioritised resources you'd want to change at the same time (e.g., a different top commentary set, top lexicon, etc.)? That is, is changing preferred Bible sufficient, or would you like to switch in a whole new set of prioritised resources?

These answers seem to be "Protestant" answers - Change Bible only.  But what about someone that is changing from "Catholic" to "Orthodox" to "Protestant"?  May need to switch not only Bible but Cannon and Lectionary.   Maybe language also may need to change [Hebrew or Greek OT and which Greek for the NT?]    Maybe save prioritization to a file and then restore it from named file?   We could take that further with saving Settings also.   [Sometime I want footnotes and sometimes they get in the way]  

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Thanks Phil

This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.

Graham Owen said:

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Thanks Phil

This is a great asset for users who are upgrading.

Phil, this is indeed a very helpful list.  I have looked carefully but don't see any mention of the movement of the parallel resources button from left to right (https://community.logos.com/forums/p/174324/1010110.aspx#1010110) The change means this frequently-used button is not available in narrow windows.  Is a return to the much more usable position on the left hand side being considered?  It's currently a reason for me not to upgrade.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

I wrote a draft article tonight. We hope to publish it in the next day or two. If you'd like to review it and provide feedback before we publish it, send me a note on Faithlife Messages or via email at phil@faithlife.com.

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

Phil, that is perfect.  Thank you so much for putting together for everyone.

Phil Gons said:

It's now available here: https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360019175372.

I copied this url into my excel sheet on L8, to have it handy.  But, its not live.  How can I make it live??

JoshInRI said:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

Have you upgraded yet or are you still on 7.

I would agree that some of the "missing" features and changes in behaviour are adding unnecessary complexity in this initial release so waiting for Faithlife to make a few updates could make sense if you are not already using 8.

I don't think that the finished product will be more complex than 7 though. The real issue here is that 8 was released before it was ready and with inadequate documentation. The latter has been fixed, at least in part. 8 has been described as an Early Adopter version and I'd say that is fair. It still has some rough edges.

There are definitely some happy users here most of whom seem to have been Beta testers so they have had some time to get used to the changes. That does at least offer hope for the future even if some of their gushing enthusiasm is a bit frustrating at times.

JoshInRI said:

My quick glance of 8 shows that nothing has improved or made simpler.  They added even more complexity imho.  Sigh.

As someone who's been using Logos 8 for a long time now (back to the Alpha), you couldn't be more wrong.

It's certainly true that some things that are different, and it's even true that one or two simple tasks are now slightly harder to perform. But very, very many things are simpler:

1. It's much easier for a beginner to find specific titles in their library.
2. It's much easier to added shared documents to Logos.
3. It's much easier for a beginner to study the Bible where they don't know were to start (thanks to Workflows).
4. It's much easier to use individual guide sections (you no longer need to create custom guides)
5. It's somewhat easier to do some moderately complex searches (thanks to search templates)

There's probably other things as well. But #3 is huge.

Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?

I'm a heavy user of the Passage Guide.  Using the guide menu only opens up a blank passage guide that, when a passage is entered, all categories are expanded.  In 7 and prior the guide menu would open up pre-populated according to the active passage window AND with categories expanded and collapsed according to the last use.  I prefer all categories collapsed, and I expand them as needed.  It's much cleaner looking and works faster.  Now, to open up a passage guide that is 1)populated with the information from you active passage and 2)with categories collapsed and expanded the way it was last closed one needs to open it from within a passage (drag over passage and open a context menu, select the passage context, and select passage guide).  It's quite a bit more clunky.

Bruce Dunning said:

Denise said:

- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.

Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.

So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.

I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.

And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).

Matthew said:

I wish there was a "commentary picker" tool where I could easily pick my top five commentaries for each individual book of the Bible

I did this years ago by modifying Series settings.  It took some time, but I can now have my top 4 commentaries on each book in a panel, and it follows (correctly) when I switch from book-to-book in the bible.

Mark Barnes said:

It's certainly true that some things that are different,

Just a side note, Mark, but one of the worst things you can do if you sell very complex software is to make things "different," especially if the software is a high-dollar investment that folks will hope to spend some hard time learning then use for years.

So "different" is a legitimate issue for many.

John Goodman said:

Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?

Gotham.

John Fidel said:

Bruce Dunning said:

Mark Barnes said:

The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.

I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.

While I agree with this, it should be taken with a grain of salt. There are some who just refuse to even try to change, and that is not right either. I also agree with Mark that it is fruitless to keep fighting the system after the dust has settled. Some things we have won on (example: FL is actively working on restoring some of the old Homepage functionality) and some things we have lost on (Example: Note Titles). But if we are honest, many many MANY of the things are done in L8 the exact same way they were done in L7. The things that are different (aside from notes which is a complete overhaul but even then is not as much of a learning curve as some seem to make it out to be) are different to make things better if you take the time to sit down and try and understand why the tool has changed the way it has.

As a beta tester, I have heard accusations that those of us who had access to the software early aren't sensitive and have already had time to adapt. While it is true that we have had time to adapt, a key is that we TRIED to adapt, and, for the most part, succeeded. Keep a positive attitude, ask questions, watch the quickstart videos. The new software is well worth the effort and time.

Mark Barnes said:

…I completely disagree with this.

Every single major developer of software has had to make significant changes to that software over its lifetime to keep it current (think Microsoft's Word's ribbon). If Faithlife hadn't done that, we'd still be using Libronix the Logos Library System on Windows 3.1. (Or you might be. I'd have jumped ship to Accordance, high-dollar investment or not.)

The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Voicing disapproval, and appealing to Faithlife for change is perfectly legitimate, especially when a new major version has been released. But, once things have settled down, fighting against the system just isn't worth it. If we still want to be using Logos Bible Software in 2045 (and I'm planning to!), then just as Faithlife have to adapt, so do we.

Mark ...

1. Logos isn't adding machine software. Or typewriter software. Or send pictures to your mom software. The users (in theory) are concerned with sharing the hope of salvation with as many people as possible. Not spending hours on interesting changes and poorly planned interfaces.

2. Logos isn't a baby. And the developers aren't gods. They make mistakes, rush things, force things. And need to fix things.

3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.

4. It wasn't weeks ago, users were piling on, saying searches! Just fix the internals! Is that what they got? Of course not. Need another update. Or another. Or another.

5. I'll wait. 

John Fidel said:

I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.

This for me is the point that needs to be understood by Faithlife.

I needed the document that Phil Gons has just published when I installed the update, it would have save me a lot of time and frustration and I would have been a much happier customer. Most of the detail in the document was available before 8 was released so this being available on day 1 was possible it was just not a priority for Faithlife. My hope is that Faithlife will learn the lesson and communicate better in the future...

I totally get that software will change for many reasons and that some of the change will always involve the UI, I also accept that most of the time real progress is made as part of the change so personally I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.