Liturgy of the Hours/Breviary for Verbum??
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I agree as well. Universalis has figured out one way to do this. Verbum can surely find a way!
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Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake". I don't know precisely what they will deliver but I am worried that you are setting your expectations to "unrealistic".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake".
Interestingly, a search ( https://verbum.com/search?query=liturgy%20of%20the%20hours&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe ) gets "The complete, official four-volume English edition of the Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) presented in an easy-to-use digital interface for daily prayer." That text does not show up on https://www.logos.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:MJ. Smith said:
Before you get all carried away, Verbum committed to selling the prayer book as a resource They did not commit to selling a prayer app. Anything beyond being able to navigate the prayer book at a functional level equivalent to navigating the missal will be "frosting on the cake".
Interestingly, a search ( https://verbum.com/search?query=liturgy%20of%20the%20hours&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe ) gets "The complete, official four-volume English edition of the Liturgy of the Hours (Divine Office) presented in an easy-to-use digital interface for daily prayer." That text does not show up on https://www.logos.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite.
That does seem to be the “smoking gun” in this case
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Verbum Max0 -
There is a "Today's Readings" in the just released LOTH, but when I click on it, nothing happens.
Does this mean I still have to buy a yearly GUIDE?
Maybe it will work tomorrow. There's no Hyperlink from "Todays Reading".
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The "Today" link works for me today. We'll investigate.
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This one was expensive, even buying as a PrePub like I did. I wish there was some sort of functional dashboard guide for this. I'm happy to have it digitally, but honestly as it appears to me now, I'll NEVER use it. iBreviary is FAR easier and FREE. Honestly, the four volume set is FAR easier thanks to the ribbons, than what this presents. I couldn't see how Verbum could call itself the Catholic version of Logos without the Breviary and think the claim was legitimate. But now having the breviary in Logos I think they need to go the extra mile and actually make it functionally easy to use - particularly for a lay Catholic who would otherwise be totally intimidated. Honestly, to use the 4 physical volumes I need the annual little pamphlet guide for $2-3. Without something like a digital version of that little pamphlet at a minimum, the digital version of these 4 volumes is of limited to use to most lay Catholics.0
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The sometime functionality of "Today" is due to a lack of coverage in milestones.
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
The sometime functionality of "Today" is due to a lack of coverage in milestones.
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.
Maybe working some days is better than not working on any days?
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I disagree. I think if they can't get it to work reliably it's better to just remove it. Not spending the effort to make it a true home page item that would "pull together" a complete day by hour (office of readings, noon etc etc) really demonstrates a lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic of just what this prayer is supposed to be. Software developers who care about the authentic practice of the Catholic faith as opposed to just marketing gimmicks would use this license once acquired to do something at least as awesome as iBreviary. Otherwise it's truly just that - a marketing gimmick to show "catholicity"
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Patrick Fleischmann said:
lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic
Caution: please don't limit this to a Catholic issues, especially not just a Latin rite Catholic issue. The problem similarly occurs for the Anglicans, some Lutheran, and the Orthodox - Eastern and Oriental. Faithlife needs to implement the global solution, not just a Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Patrick Fleischmann said:
lack of understanding by those who ultimately are running logos but are not Catholic
Caution: please don't limit this to a Catholic issues, especially not just a Latin rite Catholic issue. The problem similarly occurs for the Anglicans, some Lutheran, and the Orthodox - Eastern and Oriental. Faithlife needs to implement the global solution, not just a Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.
On the other hand, this is the “Catholic Products” subforum and we are talking about a Catholic product that was released in a subpar condition compared to what we had been led to expect.
We can look at Patrick Fleischmann‘s opinion and ask whether it accurately explains why FL sees the LOTH release as mildly flawed instead of fatally. And I’m not opposed to your point either if FL’s approach impacts these other group. But I don’t think his wanting a fix is asking for a ”Latin-rite Catholic bandaid.”
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Verbum Max0 -
FWIW - I know I am not in the 'right' forum to say this, but in the spirit of good collaboration between the denominations, from the Anglican tradition I really hope we can see some traction on this.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.
Today may be the best example of a day (and a reason) why this will be impossible.
Today is the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church. This is a movable feast that occurs on the Monday after Pentecost on the Universal Calendar. Everyone praying LotH today, unless they happen to have a local feast that supersedes this Memorial, is obligated to pray the prayers of this Memorial. It's not even an Optional Memorial. This Memorial also isn't in the four-volume LotH, because this Memorial is decades newer than the four-volume LotH. (Not only that, but the English prayers and readings for this Memorial still haven't been released... and when they are released, they won't be magically added to the four volume breviary.) For now, the correct thing to do is to use the Prayers from the Common in the customary fashion for Memorials. That should be fun to code... and still more fun to figure out for people who aren't up on all the ins and outs of the liturgical calendar. And this Memorial is far from the only feast on the worldwide liturgical calendar that is not in LotH.
I expect that the most practical way to get what people are asking for--a near-iBreviary experience of praying LotH in Verbum--would be for Faithlife to license the annual guides for the Breviary, probably the national ones for the States. Otherwise, Faithlife would have to create one itself, much as it has done for Catholic Daily Readings, except with links to LotH rather than readings. In either case, you would be dealing with a Verbum resource--an ordo--that is not itself LotH.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
We recognize that this is confusing and we plan on removing it until we can get to a place where it works on all days.
Today may be the best example of a day (and a reason) why this will be impossible.
Today is the Memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church. This is a movable feast that occurs on the Monday after Pentecost on the Universal Calendar. Everyone praying LotH today, unless they happen to have a local feast that supersedes this Memorial, is obligated to pray the prayers of this Memorial. It's not even an Optional Memorial. This Memorial also isn't in the four-volume LotH, because this Memorial is decades newer than the four-volume LotH. (Not only that, but the English prayers and readings for this Memorial still haven't been released... and when they are released, they won't be magically added to the four volume breviary.) For now, the correct thing to do is to use the Prayers from the Common in the customary fashion for Memorials. That should be fun to code... and still more fun to figure out for people who aren't up on all the ins and outs of the liturgical calendar. And this Memorial is far from the only feast on the worldwide liturgical calendar that is not in LotH.
I expect that the most practical way to get what people are asking for--a near-iBreviary experience of praying LotH in Verbum--would be for Faithlife to license the annual guides for the Breviary, probably the national ones for the States. Otherwise, Faithlife would have to create one itself, much as it has done for Catholic Daily Readings, except with links to LotH rather than readings. In either case, you would be dealing with a Verbum resource--an ordo--that is not itself LotH.
If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there. (My Divine Office did have it).
I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment. But it needs the card like the lectionary has.
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Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there.
Presumably.
David Wanat said:(My Divine Office did have it).
As does iBreviary... using the Commons.
David Wanat said:I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment.
The trick with today's Memorial is that, even though FL can't provide (not-yet-existent) material specific to this Memorial, a "Today" button or Homepage card should bring the user to the Common because it would be wrong to send the user to the Monday of the Eighth Week in Ordinary Time. However, that would really confuse people who don't know that today is a Memorial (in the universal calendar).
I didn't even mention the difficulty that a Today button wouldn't solve the problem of people not knowing what sections they can (or must) take from the Common... something controlled, in today's case, by the rank of the day. The GILH does spell out what you can (or must) take from the Common for feasts of any given rank, but the LotH doesn't include today's Memorial at all, so you need an external information source in order to know that today is a Memorial, never mind which Memorial.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:David Wanat said:
If I recall correctly, FL said they had plans for the revised version once it was approved. Presumably the Memorial would be found there.
Presumably.
David Wanat said:(My Divine Office did have it).
As does iBreviary... using the Commons.
David Wanat said:I can understand if FL can’t provide material not found in the four volumes and suppliment.
The trick with today's Memorial is that, even though FL can't provide (not-yet-existent) material specific to this Memorial, a "Today" button or Homepage card should bring the user to the Common because it would be wrong to send the user to the Monday of the Eighth Week in Ordinary Time. However, that would really confuse people who don't know that today is a Memorial (in the universal calendar).
I didn't even mention the difficulty that a Today button wouldn't solve the problem of people not knowing what sections they can (or must) take from the Common... something controlled, in today's case, by the rank of the day. The GILH does spell out what you can (or must) take from the Common for feasts of any given rank, but the LotH doesn't include today's Memorial at all, so you need an external information source in order to know that today is a Memorial, never mind which Memorial.
Fair enough. I guess I was talking at a cross purpose.
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Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
I guess I was talking at a cross purpose.
But I still agree with your points. [Y] (Though I do think that the LotH home page card should point to the correct spot in whatever ordo FL licenses or creates for LotH.)
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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The current LOTH in Verbum is nearly useless to me. It needs a Yearly Guide or an entry in Daily Catholic Readings - like the Lectionary and Missal links to open up LOTH but also to open up LOTH in a linear way so it goes to the Invitatory then to the individual Hours, Morning Prayer, Daytime Prayer, Office of Readings, Evening Prayer, and Night Prayer, so I can open up today's Invitatory, if I wasn't able to pray the Morning Prayer, go to Daytime Prayer, or other, and continue on to the other Hours concluding with Night Prayer. What we have now is a useless mess.
I have to use my Yearly Guide and if I'm going to do that, it is much easier to just read from the printed volumes, Verbum's LOTH is far too burdensome and confusing for me. Obviously, it could be flawless, even better than iBrevery and other resources, but it isn't. Are there plans on correcting this?
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WHAT HE SAID!!!!!!!
EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID!!!!!!
Faithlife has a TOTAL FAIL on this one. I was so encouraged when this was announced - that Verbum was going to be a TRULY Catholic Rite ready resource. This makes it embarrassingly apparent it's a Protestant resource trying to cross market to Catholics.
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Patrick Fleischmann said:
Faithlife has a TOTAL FAIL on this one.
I understand what users want - an interactive for using the Liturgy of the Hours. But please keep in mind that Verbum has delivered what they advertised - a usable electronic facsimile of the 4 volume print copy. I am experimenting with various options for building a shareable daily/service liturgy tool - either like the lectionary tool that calls in the appropriate texts or a reading list that branches to them...I have some other projects to finish before I can seriously churn out the necessary text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Patrick Fleischmann said:
Faithlife has a TOTAL FAIL on this one.
I understand what users want - an interactive for using the Liturgy of the Hours. But please keep in mind that Verbum has delivered what they advertised - a usable electronic facsimile of the 4 volume print copy. I am experimenting with various options for building a shareable daily/service liturgy tool - either like the lectionary tool that calls in the appropriate texts or a reading list that branches to them...I have some other projects to finish before I can seriously churn out the necessary text.
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Verbum Max0 -
Thank You MJ. Smith for working on a liturgy tool that will make using the LOTH easier.
It would be nice if some of the staff at Logos would lend you a hand in this project.
Right now it seems that there is both disappointment and confusion with this product (understandably so).
I believe that to ease it's use would be of great benefit to Faithlife (ease of use is stated in their own advertisement of the product).
I think that it would be of benefit to Faithlife to assure their customers that they have heard their concerns and will be trying to do something in response to their request.
For Faithlife not to respond in some way (with action to improve the product) gives the customers the impression that they don't care.
I don't think that is the message that they really want to send? At least I hope not.
Pastor Jesse Blevins
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Jesse Blevins said:
For Faithlife not to respond in some way (with action to improve the product) gives the customers the impression that they don't care.
I don't think that is the message that they really want to send? At least I hope not.
perhaps their motto (after their response to the shopping cart icon) could be
et consueuerint ad eam [;)]
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Verbum Max0 -
This message is incorrect, I didn't scroll down far enough. Disregard, comments about things being removed, nothing has been removed, the remarks I post here are still on the description page. My other comments stand.
M.J. Smith,Unfortunately, that's not the description Verbum had earlier. What it used to say has been deleted.
This is what it used to say before it was changed. It was changed after I posted paraphrasing it on Saturday May 22, 2021. I know this because I checked to see what the wording was, and to be sure it said what I remember it said, which it did, so I posted my remark. It was there then but it's been removed. Thanks to archive.org the wording is preserved:This edition features the standard four volume presentation of the liturgy of the hours. The Verbum software aligns the prayers of each day in a single, easy-to-use interface. No ribbons or flipping back and forth between various sections of the book.
The four volumes are sold as a single resource and not as individual volumes.
I added the BOLD text.
You can see it here. https://web.archive.org/web/20200809164054/https://verbum.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite
Someone seems to have removed EXACTLY the words that would support our mutual recollections.I am disgusted that anyone from a supposed Christian organization would employ this type of deceit on it's customers.0 -
\David J. Ring, Jr. said:M.J. Smith,
Unfortunately, that's not the description Verbum had earlier. What it used to say has been deleted.
This is what it used to say before it was changed. It was changed after I posted paraphrasing it on Saturday May 22, 2021. I know this because I checked to see what the wording was, and to be sure it said what I remember it said, which it did, so I posted my remark. It was there then but it's been removed. Thanks to archive.org the wording is preserved:This edition features the standard four volume presentation of the liturgy of the hours. The Verbum software aligns the prayers of each day in a single, easy-to-use interface. No ribbons or flipping back and forth between various sections of the book.
The four volumes are sold as a single resource and not as individual volumes.
I added the BOLD text.
You can see it here. https://web.archive.org/web/20200809164054/https://verbum.com/product/188341/the-liturgy-of-the-hours-according-to-the-roman-rite
Someone seems to have removed EXACTLY the words that would support our mutual recollections. I am disgusted that anyone from a supposed Christian organization would employ this type of deceit on it's customers.It can still be seen here: https://verbum.com/search?query=liturgy%20of%20the%20hours&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe
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Verbum Max0 -
This message is incorrect, I didn't scroll down far enough. Disregard, comments about things being removed, nothing has been removed, the remarks I post here are still on the description page. My other comments stand.This is my earlier post, at which time the description was unchanged.
Posts 101
It only works if there's a feast day. It does not work for May 22, also for Saturdays the Evening Prayer for the next day, Sunday should be given.
Logos advertised this as something that would eliminate page flipping and ribbons (bookmarks), is this going to become available? Right now LOTH is not useful at all for me in Verbum.
LOTH is something to pray, I certainly understand why ribbons and page flipping are needed in a printed LOTH if it was printed in linear form the books would be tens of thousands of pages long. This is avoided in digital format but we don't have it, but we COULD have it, that is, it's possible, and I believe it's needed and that's what I paid for because that's what was advertised.
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This message is incorrect, I didn't scroll down far enough. Disregard, comments about things being removed, nothing has been removed, the remarks I post here are still on the description page. My other comments stand.
Helo David Wanat,No, the words have been changed, perhaps you're reading from your computer's cache. The words I mentioned "The Verbum software aligns the prayers if each day in a single, easy-to-use interface. No ribbons or flipping back and forth between various sections of the book." do NOT appear in the link you just gave.
Clear your cache, or use another browser and you will see the words above, the very words that support some of our recollections are missing. I believe they have been removed.
It would be nice to have what they advertised, a SINGLE easy to use interface.
We don't have that.
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David J. Ring, Jr. said:
This message is incorrect, I didn't scroll down far enough. Disregard, comments about things being removed, nothing has been removed, the remarks I post here are still on the description page. My other comments stand.
Helo David Wanat,No, the words have been changed, perhaps you're reading from your computer's cache. The words I mentioned "The Verbum software aligns the prayers if each day in a single, easy-to-use interface. No ribbons or flipping back and forth between various sections of the book." do NOT appear in the link you just gave.
Clear your cache, or use another browser and you will see the words above, the very words that support some of our recollections are missing. I believe they have been removed.
It would be nice to have what they advertised, a SINGLE easy to use interface.
We don't have that.
Should have been more clear. What I meant was, using the search for Liturgy of the Hours, the landing page for the search shows they are promising the "easy to use interface." (quote). No, it's not in the product description now, but one could (and I do) argue that they still have it promised.
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Verbum Max0 -
Morning Prayer for today is missing the Scriptural Reference for the Canticle (Jer 31:10-14).
Please note: this is for Volume III >> Four Week Psalter >> Thursday, Week 1 >> Morning Prayer.
(The correct reference appears in volumes 1, 2, and 4 on Thursday, Week 1 Morning Prayer)
Is the best way to report issues like this the Report Typo function in Verbum or is it worth posting them to the forums as well?
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