Essential reference works
Comments
-
Hamilton Ramos said:
Is funny that you reference Globalsecurity (I just think is hilarious). Did not see that coming from you.
I deliberately use a variety of sources so that forum users know I am not pushing a Catholic position/vocabulary but a broader position. Think of this choice as being in honor of my daughter-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor in Killeen, Tx (Fort Hood).
Hamilton Ramos said:because that is the feeling that Catholic Charismatics have.
How many Charismatic priests have you taken to lunch? How much of the leadership of the state Charismatic Catholics organization have you managed in their role(s) of liturgical ministers? How much training in Catholic healing prayer do you have? (Think Jan Aikire and Leo Thomas's Healing Ministry: A Practical Guide. Yes, I have a sculpture by Fr. Leo Thomas.) See web excerpt on prayer for healing from a non-Dominican source.
Hamilton Ramos said:I have shown to you what the core of Orthodox is by the link that Christopher posted:
Christopher Grant said:
MJ's note ends with a quote that sums up the Orthodox view on theology very nicely (and riffs of Evagrius of Pontus):
Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
Hamilton Ramos said: I am in all good will trying to point out the underneath key spiritual principles behind it all.
Please don't. It violates the no theology request of the guidelines and illustrates that your understanding is so different that you frequently misunderstand my posts. Your misrepresentation of the Catholic position verges on libelous - and again has no place in a thread on essential Orthodox reference works.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
Which reference works would you list?
I found an interesting list at https://www.ocf.net/resources-for-bible-study/
[quote]
- The Orthodox Study Bible: If you’re not already using it, the OSB has some helpful, basic articles and footnotes throughout the text.
- An Interlinear or Side-by-Side Bible or New Testament: Using both the Greek and/or Hebrew text alongside the English text can really help when you get stumped on a passage or everyone has really different translations. Plus, it brings up other interesting questions as you go along. There are a few online sources like BibleHub or BibleStudyTools or you can find them on Amazon (here’s one suggestion). For this and other books, I suggest purchasing one or two OCF copies that can be passed down rather than having everyone in the chapter get one.
- A Concordance: This nifty little book is basically a fancy index for the Bible, letting you find passages by topic. Again, there are some online tools on BibleStudyTools or you can go for Strong’s Concordance in print.
- A Bible Dictionary: Ever come across a word and wonder the history of that word, idea, or object? A Bible Dictionary is a step up from Wikipedia. Try Vine’s.
- Commentaries: There are about a million of these you could try, but the best, of course, are the Orthodox patristic commentaries, but certainly modern Orthodox (and non-Orthodox) authors have some things to add, too. Probably your local parish has a few of these you can borrow or might be willing to purchase them for the parish. Here are just a few:
- Ancient Christian Commentary Series: This gives you just little snippits from a number of Fathers, East and West, on each passage. This is great for hearing from the cloud of witnesses and getting to know which Fathers you connect with the best.
- The Bible and the Holy Fathers for Orthodox: Similar to Ancient Christian Commentaries in that it gives brief patristic passages, but compiled by an Orthodox author to be used with an Orthodox daily lectionary.
- St. Theophylact: St. Theophylact’s commentaries on Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Ephesians, Galatians are available on Amazon.
- St. John Chrysostom: Of course, St. John’s homilies are incredibly useful! You can find many of them for free in somewhat archaic English from Christian Classics Ethereal Library or you can order a volume such as this one. St. John has homilies on Genesis, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and Hebrews. Whew. I think that’s it.
- The Orthodox Bible Study Companion Series: Written by Fr. Lawrence Farley, these offer some simple and helpful reflections on the entire New Testament and are meant to be especially helpful if you are reading in the OSB.
- Fr. Paul Tarazi: A biblical scholar from St. Vlad’s, Fr. Paul has written on Genesis, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John (including his letters), Paul’s letters (with full volumes on Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Romans, I Thessalonians, and Galatians.
- ExeGenius: Have you seen this really cool tool put out by the GOA’s Y2AM team? Go through the Sunday Gospel readings word by word with this interactive commentary which pulls together interesting portions of Bible dictionaries, concordances, and commentaries as well as adds a few thoughts geared specifically toward youth and young adults.
- OrthodoxYouth: These resources from the Antiochian Archdiocese include study guides, quizzes, and mp3s on the books of the New Testament for youth and young adults.
- Orthodox Scripture Study: Thanks to the ACROD seminary Christ the Saviour, you can tune in to live lectures on the Gospel of John or the Gospel of Matthew. They also archive video and audio versions of the lectures.
- Your Spiritual Advisor: You can never go wrong with having a priest helping you walk through the words of the Bible.
"Illumine our hearts, O Master Who lovest mankind, with the pure light of Thy divine knowledge. Open the eyes of our mind to the understanding of Thy gospel teachings. Implant also in us the fear of Thy blessed commandments, that trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living, both thinking and doing such things as are well-pleasing unto Thee. For Thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen."
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Hamilton, I would caution against trying to understand the Orthodox (or Catholic) Church from books. It's a bit like trying to experience the Grand Canyon by looking at a map of Arizona. You see the territory, but you miss the point.
Returning to the original question, I would suggest the Septuagint, which was the version of the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles quoted, and differs markedly in places from the Masoretic texts: https://www.logos.com/product/16106/brentons-septuagint-english-translation
While it's not an "Orthodox" translation (such a beast doesn't exist in English), I like the Douay-Rheims https://www.logos.com/product/5202/douay-rheims-bible if for no other reason than that it has all (or at least most) of the old testament intact.
For those preferring the KJV, there is also the Cambridge Paragraph Bible https://www.logos.com/product/24557/the-new-cambridge-paragraph-bible-with-the-apocrypha-rev-ed
Going back to my original list These Truths We Hold is available on Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/42491/these-truths-we-hold-the-holy-orthodox-church-her-life-and-teachings
Catena Aurea contains some non-orthodox resources, but is otherwise a good commentary https://www.logos.com/product/5216/catena-aurea-commentary-on-the-four-gospels
Probably the biggest bang for the buck in terms of Patristic Resources is The Early Church Father's https://www.logos.com/product/7832/early-church-fathers-special-catholic-edition
With Logos' ability to index and search all of these resources, some of the value of Catena is diminished, but not all of the resources Aquinas used are in the other series, so there is still value there.
While missing the Menaion, Pentecostarion, and the Octoechos, The St. Tikhon's Orthodox Service Books bundle is a good reference for putting together or just reading the services: https://www.logos.com/product/42351/st-tikhons-orthodox-service-books
In extreme need, the Menaion can be replaced with the General Menaion (https://www.logos.com/product/32968/the-general-menaion), and the Sunday Octoechos is available here https://www.logos.com/product/33096/octoechos-or-the-book-of-eight-tones
Note that these are horrible translations, and that the General Menaion lacks a lot of the value of the full Menaion, as the general verses in praise of a saint can't compare to the specific verses written about that saint. It's better than nothing, but I'll still visit my jurisdictional website for the verses rather than rely on either of these resources. As an example:
The Sticheras of the Resurrection from the Octoechos, Tone 1.
ACCEPT our vespertine prayers, O Holy Lord, and grant us the remission of sins, for Thou alone hast made manifest unto the world the resurrection.
The Most Holy Governing Synod of Russia. (1898). Octoechos or The Book of Eight Tones: A Primer Containing the Sunday Service in Eight Tones. (N. Orloff, Trans.) (p. 1). London: J. Davy & Sons.
While I wouldn't use it as a general reference book, there is much value in being able to refer to the Ladder of Divine Ascent (And Hamilton, if you're looking for a systematic path to God, that's a great example) https://www.logos.com/product/120191/john-climacus-the-ladder-of-divine-ascent
As an aside, I don't think the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as understood by the average Pentecostal quite matches the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as understood by the average Orthodox. For one thing, one of the chief dangers for us is pride, and the gift of miracles without sufficient humility is a surefire way to inflame that particular passion. Miracle working Saints are common in the Orthodox church, but the average layman (or Priest, for that matter) is more likely to engage in simple intercessory prayer than to be directly given the gift of miracle working.
0 -
How could I have forgotten the Ancient Christian Commentaries Series?! That's a great resource. St.Theophylact's commentaries are also highly regarded, and sadly missing from my shelf. I have concerns with Fr. Paul Tarazi (see http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/fr-paul-tarazi-from-study-to-heresy.aspx).
And of course, every Orthodox Christian should turn to his spiritual father for guidance. But that's not a resource I can put on a bookshelf, or download to Logos.
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
I have concerns with Fr. Paul Tarazi (see http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/fr-paul-tarazi-from-study-to-heresy.aspx).
Thanks for the link. Has there been a response? I was left with an uneasy feeling re:the author expressing concern: was he reading the text as the average intended reader would or was he reading with the intent to find fault? When I next find myself reading Tarazi, I will pay closer attention to the perceived issues.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
While it's not an "Orthodox" translation (such a beast doesn't exist in English)
What about the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint (SAAS), the OT translation in the Orthodox Study Bible? It’s not perfect, but it is definitely an Orthodox translation of the LXX and the most readable of any LXX translation in my experience.
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
I like the Douay-Rheims https://www.logos.com/product/5202/douay-rheims-bible if for no other reason than that it has all (or at least most) of the old testament intact.
The Ecumenical canon NRSV includes the complete canon for both the Greek and the Slavic Orthodox. In Logos, using the NRSV as your highest priority Bible is the only way to get the entire ecumenical canon treated as canonical.
Christopher Grant said:Ladder of Divine Ascent (And Hamilton, if you're looking for a systematic path to God, that's a great example) https://www.logos.com/product/120191/john-climacus-the-ladder-of-divine-ascent
This book has been requested/suggested as traditional Lenten reading plan multiple times. Thinking of Lent (or the Great Fast)? Traditional reading schedule for John Climacus; What do you read repeatedly ... or seasonally; . . .
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Thanks for the post Ken.
I do not want to start a theological discussion type exchange here. Let it be enough to say that for some groups the Bible has more authority than any writing by any believer.
John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.
If what any Bishop does or says goes against the expressed will of Jesus, His nature and character, I am not to follow, submit, take.
A true Bishop appointed by God (not an institution out of alignment with God's revealed revelation), I can follow. But you must understand that salvation is an individual thing. I am responsible to make sure that the persons that wants to be in charge of my growth is truly pointing me to the one and only savior: Jesus Christ.
Not all the Bishops have the individual persons salvation as top priority, in ideal life they should, but many times they do not.
Ken McGuire said:and so our lives as Christians are wrapped up in and around the divine life of God.
We can perfectly agree about this one. But in real life it does not happen, or people fall short of what restored Koinonia with God throgh the baptism of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be.
So that we are clear of what I mean by the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" see:
I could not get the page number to make a reference so:
Note that I am not promoting division, etc, Any one believer in any denomination can actually seek for that baptism of the Holy Spirit, which by the way was the second mission that Jesus (Lord and Savior) came to do: to baptize us with the Holy Spirit so that we can restore g:koinonia with God.
The experience of the Holy Spirit as depicted above, is what Orthodox devotees like the article posted http://www.pravoslavie.ru/47866.html go through I suppose, and is independent of denomination, group, tradition, etc.
Now getting more back in topic:
Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?
If not, which ones would you include?
Are there any systematic theologies that you find compatible with the Orthodox faith?
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/22623/truth-aflame
What are your favorite systematic theologies and the like both Orthodox and non-Orthodox if you care to share?
Thanks for the input, and thanks for Christlike exchange, thoughtful, tactful, respectful...
Kind Regards.
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
I deliberately use a variety of sources so that forum users know I am not pushing a Catholic position/vocabulary but a broader position. Think of this choice as being in honor of my daughter-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor in Killeen, Tx (Fort Hood).
I think is great, do not get me wrong, I think all true truth comes from God who is the bestower of all good things.
MJ. Smith said:How many Charismatic priests have you taken to lunch? How much of the leadership of the state Charismatic Catholics organization have you managed in their role(s) of liturgical ministers? How much training in Catholic healing prayer do you have?
Remember that in my country the majority is Catholic. I was born a Catholic. I have many friends well involved in all kinds of Catholic endeavors, and we talk a lot about different things.
I listen to what their concerns are. I try to help them out to develop more their spirituality. Many times they find barriers for what they want to do.
I tell them not to give up, to keep working where God has put them, and to learn more about different parts of faith in Christ, even from different groups.
To many of them the situation is frustrating.
MJ. Smith said:Your misrepresentation of the Catholic position verges on libelous
Do you think I feel not bad when scandals with the clergy in the Catholic Church happens, and the leaders seem to not act decisively? Do you know how much it has affected normal Catholics here?
My concern is: can a system be developed, so that by the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit persons not suited for clergy are not permitted from getting to positions where misconduct can happen?
In one of the articles that you mention the term "word of knowledge" is used. Why is not such concept used to prevent abuses by clergy?
From an independent perspective an independent Christian can see in the Bible: "by their fruits you will know them", are abuses fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is there a major problem going on?
Recently a Catholic Priest in a neighbor country fled to ours because of a victim denouncing abuse, is that what Christianity is supposed to be?
Why is the Church not doing a more proactive system to check what the clergy is doing? why not develop systems of overwatch to prevent problems?
Do I hate Catholics? Are we quick to point fingers to other believers before looking into our own problems?
After high school graduation I was invited by a friend to join Benedictines (he did), I told him that I would only join Franciscans, but I did not feel I had what it takes to be a monk.
Do you know how many Catholics we have helped? and want to continue helping?
I see a lot of good things happening with the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church, but then I also hear what problems those in such go through.
MJ. Smith said:"To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
Best quote, I have mentioned before. and if you see even though it probably was uttered in a particular context, it actually applies to any Christian believer in any denomination.
Being connected to God is independent of denomination. Now if when that happens, then the denomination rejects you, that is another thing.
0 -
Thanks Christopher for the recommendations.
True Christians, receiving the true Holy Spirit experience, are the same as there is only one Holy Spirit.
In many Pentecostal / Charismatic denominations, there are fake persons, portraying as the legit thing. I do think that all true sheep should pray for the gift of discernment of Spirits, to be able to tell who is who.
One of the misunderstanding that I have found (on many traditions, groups, denominations), is the concept of the miracle worker.
The Miracle worker is Jesus alone! He is the vine, without Him, nothing happens ever. Any persons that thinks that is a miracle worker is out of whack.
We are vessels chosen for honorable use, but we are the recipient of the Holy Spirit (the remedy), not the remedy.
Being a living stone part of the new temple of God (body of Christ), does not mean that we are the Holy Spirit that indwells that new temple.
Big difference.
I have much respect for Orthodox believers, because they are crystal clear that theosis does not imply that we will eventually get self-existence (aseity).
So true baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same for Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc. This concept is the one I am trying to push.
Now, do you know about a Book of saints for the Orthodox tradition, just like the one that Catholics have?
Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?
If not, which ones would you include?
Are there any systematic theologies that you find compatible with the Orthodox faith?
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/22623/truth-aflame
Thanks ahead of time for your input.
0 -
There are several books of saints, one of them is even available on Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/173681/a-daily-calendar-of-the-saints
I would also suggest the Prologue of Ochrid. It's not on logos, but can be accessed at the wayback machine, conveniently linked by day here: http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=925
St. Dimitri of Rostov did a monumental "Lives of the saints", but it is, sadly, not completely available in English.
One of the books I suggested was Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, and I stand by that recommendation. A search of other resources suggested Orthodox Theology: An Introduction by Vladimir Lossky (warning, he is dense). The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus, The Mystery of Faith by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev.
Regrettably none of these are on Logos, but I know that An Exact Exposition is available on Kindle.
- A Daily Calendar of the Saints by Lawrence Farley
- Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky
- Orthodox Theology: An Introduction by Vladimir Lossky
- The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware,
- The Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov,
- An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus,
- The Mystery of Faith by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev
I don't think anyone would argue that Jesus Christ is the true Wonderworker, but to say that is to miss the point being made about the saints.
0 -
Also, you may find value in Reading Augsburg and Constantinople. It was a series of letters between the Lutheran theologians at Tubingen University in Germany, and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople. While there are likely significant theological differences between Lutherans (especially immediately after the reformation) and modern day Pentecostals, it is, in a sense, where all things Protestant began.
If you prefer, you can read excerpts here: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/jeremiah.aspx
You've mentioned Renewal Theology and Truth Aflame a couple of times, and while they may be worthwhile (I'd have to read them), I would be hesitant to recommend either. The fundamental assumptions are likely to be different. Protestant Theology was a direct reaction to Catholic problems. The East has had its share of problems, but they were different (especially by that time, several hundred years after the schism of 1054). As a result the Protestant answers didn't make sense to the Orthodox questions.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Do you think I feel not bad when scandals with the clergy in the Catholic Church happens, and the leaders seem to not act decisively? Do you know how much it has affected normal Catholics here?
I know how it effects all Catholics ... and the various ways they have found to deal with it ... and its harm ... and a number of Catholics who have sought shelter in other ACELO churches. I also know of other denominations in the US have have similar problems. However, true Christians do not allow their beliefs and worship to be destroyed by men who have to some degree succumbed to Satan.
I also can see in your post (a) nothing that relates to the topic of the thread - essential Orthodox Bible study resources; (b) nothing that relates to Logos, it's products, the use of its products; (c) nothing that shows a serious effort to understand responses to your questions. Therefore, I am reporting you for abuse. Whether or not Logos chooses to respond is irrelevant to me.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
R. Mansfield said:
What about the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint (SAAS),
There are a couple of projects to create English language versions of the Bible from Orthodox sources, but none that has received any official backing or liturgical use (at least that I'm aware of). As a study bible, that may well be a very good option, though.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?
From the documentation:
[quote]
Group: Patristic
• Augustine of Hippo, Saint Augustine: Christian Instruction; Admonition and Grace; The Christian Combat; Faith, Hope and Charity
• John Damascene, Saint John of Damascus: Writings
• Roberts, Alexander; Donaldson, James; Coxe, A. Cleveland; Tertullian; Minucius Felix; Commodianus; Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers 4: Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second
• Roberts, Alexander; Donaldson, James; Coxe, A. Cleveland; Tertullian; Minucius Felix; Commodianus; Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers 4: Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second (Catholic Edition)
• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.3: St. Augustin: On the Holy Trinity, Doctrinal Treatises, Moral Treatises
• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.3: St. Augustin: On the Holy Trinity, Doctrinal Treatises, Moral Treatises (Catholic Edition)
• Augustine of Hippo, Seventeen Short Treatises of S. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, Translated, with Notes and Indices
• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.2: St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine
• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.2: St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine (Catholic Edition)
• Schaff, Philip; Wace, Henry; Hilary of Poitiers; John Damascene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9: St. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus
• Schaff, Philip; Wace, Henry; Hilary of Poitiers; John Damascene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9: St. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus (Catholic Edition)
Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).
[quote]
Group: Modern Orthodox
• Yannaras, Christos, Elements of Faith: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology
Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Thanks for the input Christopher.
Christopher Grant said:As a result the Protestant answers didn't make sense to the Orthodox questions.
In your view what are some of the principal questions that have dominated Orthodox theology?
For reference:
Jewish: Who is in control? (God of course)
What is God's nature? God is one.
Most western christian worldview based groups:
Origin, Purpose, ways n means (method), n destiny. Only later due to deviation from Apostle's doctrine and the development of heresies: Authority (in the here and now).
Different groups then focused on certain aspects at different times.
Wesley: perfection... Relative perfection is different from absolute perfection. Jesus Christ is, was and will always be absolutely perfect.
We as humans (created) can only aspire to relative perfection:
Enoch (walked with God), Daniel, Joseph of Egypt, John the loved Apostle, etc. had relatively more perfection than David, Moses, Jacob, etc.
Then cessation of gifts: it seems that Augustine was the first one to suggest such, and he had to take it back because of the amount of miracles happening in the place where he congregated.
Calvin seemed not to know that was so, and kept pushing cessation of HS gifts with the resulting over rationalistic groups found now.
What in your opinion have been some thrusts in the Orthodox Church?
From what I have read, they had such problem with varying interpretations of the Scripture, that they focused more in the indwelling of the Spirit of God.
I am not sure how you go about ascertaining that some believer is legit.
Finally a resource in Spanish gives some tests to check the legit status of Churches:
1) what do they think of Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior, hypostasis of God is the most accepted view).
2) how is their morality?
Can a tree of a kind reproduce a different tree? not quite. True Church and true believers, try to stumble up the Holiness highway with the help of the Holy Spirit. and is because of that Spirit they will make it.
3) Social action?
Catholic social doctrine is advanced, and if was followed closely, a lot of unwanted events and situations could be mitigated. The use of cooperatives is a good way to help with the economics of family. Catholics have always wanted to help, and have done so. Here in my country, they came to help a lot of persons with cooperatives. But what surprises me is that the Jesuits that were so gung ho, and helpful, even have a forbidden book list that they are not allowed to read. That is strange, and I do not understand it.
4) I would add: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the identification and development of the gifts He bestows.
Are any of the points above dealt with in the systematics of Orthodox groups, are there others?
Thanks for the input.
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
However, true Christians do not allow their beliefs and worship to be destroyed by men who have to some degree succumbed to Satan.
Exactly, and this is commendable of the sheep, and the uninvolved priests. But, what is the responsibility of the high level leaders? Are they so quick to have strict norms and rules about doctrine, and then fail in the control of the morals.
MJ. Smith said:Therefore, I am reporting you for abuse. Whether or not Logos chooses to respond is irrelevant to me.
Your call. you must do what your conscience compels you to.
I do think that the conversation is helpful in that problems, questions, situations can be brought to the light, and comments can be made by members of the Orthodox Church that may have ideas and / or recommend resources.
There are a lot of resources that can be browsed to get a glimpse of the problem:
But I do not know if the Orthodox brothers have gone through similar situations and what their solutions have been.
Remember, Paul was a master blaster Bible student, tradition follower, law abiding, etc. and he was out of whack until met resurrected Jesus Himself, who set him aright.
Kind of the point I am trying to make... Bible, resources, books, interacting may help us to an extent, but until we meet Him, we will not be significantly changed.
Quoting a very wise believer:
Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
You started questioning me, without knowing my story, my background, my intentions, I did not report you for that. I know this medium lends itself to many misunderstandings, you have to understand that I am not attacking you.
I am pointing that there are flaws in systems (mostly in all groups, and traditions), and part of it I see as leaving on the side the gifts of the Holy Spriit.
I do not want to think that many groups move away from that because is the Holy Spirit the one in control of such.
Orthodox Church may give some insight on how they have organized and operated in the realm of the Holy Spirit, maybe there are huge lessons for all the western traditions.
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Group: Modern Orthodox
• Yannaras, Christos, Elements of Faith: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology
Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).
Thank you MJ.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Are there any systematic theologies that you find compatible with the Orthodox faith?
Orthodox theology is highly apophatic. No matter how you word the question, Orthodoxy still does not have a tradition of systematic theology. Look instead for dogmatic theology, apophatic theology, and liturgical theology.
- Dogmatic:
- Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky's Orthodox Dogmatic Theology has long been regarded as a standard source of Orthodox theology. Since its publication in Russian in 1963, it has been used as the main theology textbook at Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary in Jordanville, New York; and since the publication of the first English edition in 1983, it has come to be regarded throughout the English-speaking world as one of the best introductory books on Orthodox theology
- Vladmir Lossky's Dogmatic Theology: Creation, God’s Image in Man, & the Redeeming Work of the Trinity In this book, a revised, annotated, and expanded second edition of Théologie dogmatique, edited in the French by Olivier Clément and Michel Stavrou, readers encounter Lossky’s classroom lectures on dogmatic theology. Lossky confronts the great questions of theology: How can we know God? How is the Creator related to his creation? What is the vocation of human beings, created in God’s image?
- Vladmir Lossky's The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church. In his classic exposition of the theology of the Church, Lossky states that the Eastern Tradition..."has never made a sharp distinction between mysticism and theology; between personal experience of the divine mysteries and the dogma affirmed bu the Church." The term "mystical theology" denotes that which is accessible yet inaccesible' those things understood yet surpassing all knowledge.
- Dumitru Staniloae's 3 volume Orthodox Dogmatic Theology The Experience of God (1) Revelation and Knowledge of the Triune God (2) The World: Creation and Deification (3) The Person of Jesus Christ as God and Savior
- Apophatic:
- Carabine, Deirdre (2015), The Unknown God: Negative Theology in the Platonic Tradition: Plato to Eriugena, Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock Publishers
- https://orthodoxwiki.org/Apophatic_theology
- Pseudo-Dionysius. Pseudo-Dionysius: The Complete Works. Edited by John Farina. Translated by Colm Luibheid and Paul Rorem. The Classics of Western Spirituality. New York; Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1987.(Logos)
- Gregory of Nyssa. Gregory of Nyssa: The Life of Moses. Edited by Richard J. Payne. Translated by Abraham J. Malherbe and Everett Ferguson. The Classics of Western Spirituality. New York; Mahwah, NJ: Paulist Press, 1978. [Logos]
- Liturgical:
- Alexander Schmemann's Introduction to Liturgical Theology is a masterful historical and critical introduction to the study of modern Orthodox liturgics and theology. There is scarcely a student of Christian worship who has not been stirred by the brilliant mind of the late Orthodox theologian Alexander Schmemann.
Alexander Schmemann was deeply stimulated by modern movements and figures in Western Christian thought. He brings into the Western discussion of Christian unity, the relation of the Church to the world in revolution, the question of papal supremacy, and the effort to commend the gospel to a post-Christian world'a worldview at once Orthodox, patristic, and realistic. His sacramental realism and wholeness is exciting and refreshing for those, both Protestant and Roman Catholic, who have been reared on scholastic categories.
Back to the issue of the primacy of liturgy, this is an Eastern Rite Catholic's take on the topic - applied to Orthodoxy (from https://frted.wordpress.com/tag/liturgical-theology/) It should be self-evident that when worship is participation in the heavenly worship, it has enormous theological import.:
[quote]
The late great liturgical scholar Robert Taft summarized the Orthodox Liturgy this way:“In the cosmic or hierarchical scheme, church and ritual are an image of the present age of the Church, in which divine grace is mediated to those in the world (nave) from the divine abode (sanctuary) and its heavenly worship (the liturgy enacted there), which in turn images forth its future consummation (eschatological), when we shall enter that abode in Glory. Symeon of Thessalonika (d. 1429), last of the classic Byzantine mystagogues, has synthesized this vision in chapter 131 of his treatise ON THE HOLY TEMPLE:
The church, is the house of God, is an image of the whole world, for God is every where and above everything. . . . The sanctuary is a symbol of the higher and super-celestial spheres, where the throne of God and his dwelling place are said to be. it is this throne which the altar represents. … The bishop represents Christ, the church [nave] represents the visible world. . . .
I mention the apostles with the angels, bishops and priests, because there is only one Church, above and below, since God came down and lived among us, doing what he was sent to do on our behalf. And it is a work which is one, as is our Lord’s sacrifice, communion, and contemplation. And it is carried out both above and here below, but with this difference: above it is done without any veils or symbols, butt here it is accomplished through symbols. . . .
In the economic on anamnetic scheme, the sanctuary with its altar is at once: the Holy of Holies of the tabernacle decreed by Moses; the Cenacle of the Last Supper; Golgotha of the crucifixion; and the Holy Sepulchre of the resurrection, from which the sacred gifts of the Risen Lord — His Word and His body and blood — issue forth to illumine the sin-darkened world. . . .
In the iconography and liturgy of the church, this twofold vision assumes visible and dynamic form. From the central dome the image of the Pantocrator dominates the whole scheme, giving unity to the hierarchical and economic themes. The movement of the hierarchical theme is vertical: ascending from the present, worshiping community assembled in the nave, up through the ranks of the saints, prophets, patriarchs, and apostles, to the Lord in the heavens attended by the angelic choirs. The economic or ‘salvation-history’ system, extending outwards and upwards from the sanctuary, is united both artistically and theologically with the hierarchical. ” (THE BYZANTINE RITE: A SHORT HISTORY, pp 69-70)
There is no "Biblical theology" because that distinction would make no sense in the Orthodox understanding of Scripture. From the Orthodox Church in America web site:
[quote]
Question
We have not talked much about the Church itself. For example, what about the Bible? Do the Orthodox use the Bible as other Christians do?
Answer
For the Orthodox, the Bible is the book of the Church, written by and for those who believe in God and constitute His People. The Four Gospels are the center of the Bible, just as Christ is the center of the Church. For this reason the Four Gospels are always enthroned on the altar in the Orthodox Church building.
The Orthodox generally interpret the Bible in terms of Christ. In this sense, the Old Testament is partial in that it prepares for the time of Christ, the Messiah, who fulfills its message and history.
The New Testament writings are also centered around Christ and tell of His action in the world and in the Church through the Holy Spirit.
Thus the Orthodox position about the Bible, would be that the New Testament is prefigured in the Old, and the Old Testament is fulfilled in the New.
The Bible is central in the life of the Church and gives both form and content to the Church’s liturgical and sacramental worship, just as to its theology and spiritual life. Nothing in the Orthodox Church can be opposed to what is revealed in the Bible. Everything in the Church must be biblical.
The Bible itself, however, not only determines and judges the life of the Church, but is itself judged by the Church since it “comes alive” and receives its proper interpretation and significance only within the life of the Church as actually lived and experienced by the People of God.
This would be the basic Orthodox approach to the Bible. Very sadly however, it must be mentioned that the knowledge of the Bible among Orthodox is not very great. There is a conscious attempt being made today to renew the reading and meditation of the scriptures by the faithful of the Church.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0
