Breath of life

Hi Graham,

Sorry I can't directly answer your question. I have been learning some Greek, but no Hebrew so far. Maybe a later date ...

I wanted to comment, as you seem to be saying it yourself: Someone saying "this" equals "that" based on a translation, may not in fact hold true once someone studies the underlying original language.

So your question is a good example of why Logos4 is so useful to me. Its easy for me to search by Greek lemma and compair verses, rather than based on the English translation. I know Hebrew has a related idea, but there is something new I have yet to get my head around: the "root" concept I have seen spoken of; so until I get some clues on Hebrew, for me, I would not assume I know if two "base" words are the same or different.

However, my knowledge of Hebrew is non-existent so I could easily be misinterpreting this.

Is anyone able to comment on how this could best be validated or is what I have done above sufficient?

Very interesting question. The only answer I could offer is what others have told me. I'm not familiar with hardly any Hebrew yet.

This is a great example of why we need the new resource "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" featured in today's blog. http://blog.logos.com/

Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5876 is available for the Pre-Pub price of $159.95 until it ships Friday. It will then be $499.95.

There are enough tools in Logos to give an answer to the first statement. If the Hebrew scholars who told me what it says are correct, your deduction is on target. But I wouldn't want to debate the issue without deeper investigation. I'm sure somebody else can give you an educated answer. Just be sure to check out the Pre-Pub before it ships.

Graham, my Hebrew is rusty, but I can at least direct you to resources and features in Logos which should help you understand the range of meanings of these two related words. Looking in commentaries that discuss the underlying Hebrew words is also helpful, if you have any of those in your Library. What base package are you working with?

The Hebrew word in Gen 2:7 is נשׁמה (nsmh). You can look that up in a Hebrew lexicon by right-clicking the English word "breath" in the ESV, then you'll see Lemma among the tabs on the right of the popup menu. Make sure this tab is selected and you'll see the following options on the left side of the menu:

The three most useful options on the left for you will be "Look up," "Search this resource," and "Bible Word Study."

Look up does a basic Lectionary Lexicon lookup. It will depend on which lectionary lexicon or lectionaries lexicons you have available in your library and how you have them prioritized, but I've got Enhanced BDB as my preferred lectionary lexicon, so this is what I get if I click on Look up:

As you can see from the four possible definitions, this can mean breath (either of God, of man, or of every breathing thing) or spirit of man.

If you have multiple lexicons and you want to see what other ones say about this word, you can click on the + tab to the right of your lexicon tab and it will open up a list of all your lexicons that have entries for this word. You can work your way through each of them and see what you learn from that exploration.

The next useful command is "Search this resource" which will find all the other occurrences of that lemma in your ESV (Old Testament). You can look through the various ways it has been translated by the ESV Scholars and get a better idea in context of its range of possible meanings. That won't necessarily tell you what it means in Genesis 2:7, but it gets you partway there.

The "Bible Word Study" sort of combines the best of both of those commands and then some:

Up at the top you'll see a brief summary of glosses (short definitions) of your word:

You can click "more" to show more lexicons (if you have more) and if you hover over a blue highlighted lexicon name, it will pop up the beginning of the entry for that word in that lexicon:

The next section below (Definition) has this nifty exploding wheel that shows you all the different ways that Hebrew word is translated:

If you click on one section of the ring, it will expand out and show you all the verses in the ESV where that Hebrew word is translated by the English word the segment is labeled with. Here it's easy to see that spirit is only used to translate one of the occurrences of nsmh:

All of this is very interesting, but if you don't know Hebrew well, you can't really learn why the translators might have chosen breath for the translation in Gen 2:7. Here's where looking in commentaries is helpful. Here's a brief excerpt from the Word Biblical Commentary volume that covers that part of Genesis. WBC has good discussions of the meanings of Hebrew words and how they relate to the overall meaning of the verse.

The UBS Handbook on Genesis also has some good information on 2:7: "The breath of life is to be understood as 'the breath that gives life' or 'the breath that causes the man to live.'"

If you want to search through your whole library looking for any other places where Genesis 2:7 is discussed, use this search syntax

<Gen 2:7>

Then do all the same stuff I've just described for Gen 1:30, and you should be well on your way to understanding these subtle differences in more depth.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137041#Comment_137041

Look up does a basic Lectionary lookup.

Is this a new feature? [;)]Lectionaries usually deal with lections; lexicons deal with lexemes.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137047#Comment_137047

Look up does a basic Lectionary lookup.

Is this a new feature? Lectionaries usually deal with lections; lexicons deal with lexemes.

Oops, I should go to bed! [:)]

EDIT: I just fixed my other post. You know, it kind of made sense to my sleep-deprived brain. I must have conflated lexicon + dictionary = lectionary. [:P]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137052#Comment_137052

Gen 2:7
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV

Note that it says that man became a living soul. Consider the possibility that it is the combination of the physical being that God created and the spirit, or breath of life that he breathed into him, that caused man to BE a soul. Hence the theology that man is a soul...rather than man has a soul.

Happy Pondering

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137037#Comment_137037

Here I go again, replying to my own post..........

This is a great example of why we need the new resource "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" featured in today's blog. http://blog.logos.com/

Or we could all cancel our Pre-Pub orders and let Rosie (with a little help from MJ) teach us how to benefit from our Logos tools.

Seriously, I think that is partly what this new reource will help teach me. I got a little of this instruction at Camp Logos but haven't put it in to practice.

Really cool to see it demonstrated so clearly. Thanks Rosie.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137062#Comment_137062

So, this solution needs two steps:

1) We help fund Rosie to have EVERY possible resource that is in Logos format (and maybe some dead-tree ones that are not), then

2) We ask Rosie and she does a complete study for us and posts it back here.

I expect she would welcome (1) but not (2) ... [:)]

And of course, Bob won't welcome the cash-flow impact that results from the above plan ...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137073#Comment_137073

So, this solution needs two steps:

1) We help fund Rosie to have EVERY possible resource that is in Logos format (and maybe some dead-tree ones that are not), then

2) We ask Rosie and she does a complete study for us and posts it back here.

I expect she would welcome (1) but not (2) ...

If you could arrange some way to get my sleep for me (so that I actually benefit from it) then I might be more open to #2. [:P]

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137083#Comment_137083

Rosie Perera wrote the following post at Today 10:32 PM:

It is about 2.5 hours now......Go to Bed!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137052#Comment_137052

Oops, I should go to bed!

But its 7-8 hours to bedtime in your timezone [:D] I suspect that your conflation theory proves you're still coherent.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137090#Comment_137090

Oops, I should go to bed!

But its 7-8 hours to bedtime in your timezone I suspect that your conflation theory proves you're still coherent.

In my timezone, I haven't had any sleep for 36 hours. So I could hardly be coherent. You people have to stop asking so many questions! I can't ignore them! I'm totally addicted. Help. Pray for me. Really, seriously, I mean it. And yes, that might mean I won't be able to answer as many questions if your prayers are answered.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137097#Comment_137097

Um - If I write something here, Rosie will read it ..

If I don't write something here, Rosie will stay up in case I do, so she can read it.

So, as I expect you will read this, Please Rosie, go sleep and read the rest of any message much later or tomorrow, or the day after that.

Take care of yourself please.

Speaking on a different matter, Paul tells the readers that the body is a temple for the Holy Spirit, and to Glorify God with our body.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137097#Comment_137097

I haven't had any sleep for 36 hours.

I had a friend at Oklahoma State University that would remain awake for 72-120 hours. When he slept he did it for 24 hours. Are you like my friend Rosie?

I am praying for you (really). Rosie, I care for you sis.....Peace in Christ our Lord and Savior. One God now and forever.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137101#Comment_137101

I understand from Genesis 2 7 that God formed man from earth (I learn from commentaries in Logos that dust doesn't necessarily mean dry powder). But man was not yet alive. So God breathed into his nostrils breath (neshamah, not ruah, as I had been told and believed till I read the original) and so gave him life. i.e. we have life from God's own breath, unlike animals. "thus man became a living soul/being". We can model a man from clay - but can't make it live - only God can do that. I understand that the tree of life, which they were not forbidden, would have given them eternal life. So, instead of eating from that tree, they chose to follow the suggestions of the snake and eat from the one tree God in his love had forbidden them, and thus they were cut off from the tree of life.

I wouldn't necessarily advise people to take the years I needed to learn enough Hebrew for it to help me with my Bible study. But, having put in that time, I feel bereft if I don't have a Hebrew testament to hand. Now I take that on computer with Logos if I'm away just for a few days.

So, although I'm not ordering it for myself, I do recommend that people think hard about getting the Logos Greek and Hebrew language software if they don't have a reasonable knowledge of Greek and Hebrew. And I'm not being paid for making this recommendation!!!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137104#Comment_137104

An interesting different suggestion from a Logos resource:

Onkelos, the second-century convert to Judaism, also converted the Torah into the common language of his day, Aramaic. He translates/interprets Gen. 2:7 as Adam becoming a speaking spirit rather than as the NJPS translation has it, a living being.
Shai Cherry, Torah Through Time: Understanding Bible Commentary from the Rabbinic Period to Modern Times, 92 (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society, 2007).

or is what I have done above sufficient?

It would seem that the "original text" in an interlinear ( also in Logos exegetical guide) is directly tied to a particular translation. In Genesus 1:30, the word "breath" occurs in the ESV, but not in the NASB, KJ, or NKJ. So in those translations...it would appear that it never was in the original.

How do we know which translation/interlinear is closest to the ACTUAL original text? The inclusion, or exclusion of that one word dramatically changes this discussion.[:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137115#Comment_137115

the Hebrew has nephesh hayyah. Hayyah means living, if my memory serves me right. Below dictionary definitions for nephesh. A free translation might well make do with just life to translate the 2 words. I tend to translate the Bible very freely so that people can understand it, taking care to be true to the meaning of the original as I understand it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137120#Comment_137120

Nevermind

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137124#Comment_137124

you wrote to me but not on the page:

So you are verifying that the word, nephesh, is in the Hebrew text we know as genesis 1:30?

If so...Can you explain why the NASB, KJ, And NKJ chose not to include it in their translations?

yes, nephesh is in the Hebrew text of gen 1 30, both in my fairly ancient Hebrew Bible and in the Logos Stuttgart edition.

Without being able to answer for the translations you ask about, if you have breath you are presumably alive, so breath of life could be a tautology. I sometimes translate has the breath of life by breathes. It's impossible to translate 100% from one language into another. Hence the advantage of comparing different translations if you don't hAVE A USEFUL KNOWLEDGE OF gREEK AND hEBREW. NKJV would naturally follow KJV, I imagine.

When helping semi-literate Albanian villagers who have a limited vocabulary to understand and learn to reproduce what the Bible says, I need to simplify into words and thought forms that make sense to them. I think life in Gen 1 30 is probably an adequate translation of breath of life. Being of a pedantic turn of mind, I want to know for my own benefit what the original says. But I only tell others what the original says if our Albanian translation has a horrific mistranslation. Or misunderstanding. Like Matthew 2 where the magi found Mary and the child and bowed down before/worshipped HIM/HER. The Albanian word could mean either him or her, and our women understood it as that the Magi bowed down to Mary, which was very logical as it's contrary to Albanian culture to show respect to an infant! So I agreed that the translation could mean either him or her, but the original definitely said him!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137135#Comment_137135

When helping semi-literate Albanian villagers who have a limited vocabulary

Thanks;

I hope this doesn't end up being a double post. I posted these thoughts some time ago...and as of yet, they have not appeared.

I was just overwhelmed to have to admit that the interlinears and the exegetical guide were that unreliable. Though I love the KJV, i have long been aware of errors in the translation. I just didn't realize that errors/deletions in a translation, are mirrored in the interlinear for that particular translation. Being semi-literate, i just ASSUMED that the "original text" we see in the interlinear held more or less to the actual original...Live and Learn.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137102#Comment_137102

I haven't had any sleep for 36 hours.

I had a friend at Oklahoma State University that would remain awake for 72-120 hours. When he slept he did it for 24 hours. Are you like my friend Rosie?

I am praying for you (really). Rosie, I care for you sis.....Peace in Christ our Lord and Savior. One God now and forever.

Peace Indeed, Rosie. I'd like to echo William's thoughts. Your post was fantastically beautiful and helpful. I also have communicated with God through our Lord Jesus Christ a number of times about you and your welfare; and I will again, I'm sure.

But, sharing takes it's toll. How often care givers "burn out"! Let God help you not do that, Rosie. I can say -- with so many others -- that you are truly appreciated and -- I am pleased to say -- even "loved" by many in this Logos Community.

Two things I'd like to say:

One: I think Logos should provide a Forum Channel for this kind of sharing. How helpful it is!

Two: Rosie, remember the instructions by the airline attendant before taking off: In case of trouble, use the oxygen for yourself first. Then you will be capable of taking care of your child. In other words ............ TAKE CARE! *smile*

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137190#Comment_137190

kjv interlinear does have the Hebrew nephesh hayyah (נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֔ה) in the interlinear at the bottom. Also at +, highlighted, if you pass your mouse over it, it says Heb. a living soul. I'm learning lots about Logos 4 by following this up!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137253#Comment_137253

Yes...me too...Praise God. I was very confused. I now see the original text as i hoped it would be...not affected by the translation.The KJV just translated it "life", as opposed to "breath" in the ESV. You mentioned that you considered "life" to be an adequate rendering. It certainly didn't solve the OP's question...but it sure brought new light to my eyes....Thanks

Did you notice that in verses 21 and 24, it was translated "living creatures"?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137204#Comment_137204

Peace Indeed, Rosie. I'd like to echo William's thoughts.   Your post was fantastically beautiful and helpful. I also have communicated with God through our Lord Jesus Christ a number of times about you and your welfare; and I will again, I'm sure.

           But, sharing takes it's toll.          How often care givers "burn out"!      Let God help you not do that, Rosie. I can say -- with so many others -- that you are truly appreciated and -- I am pleased to say -- even "loved" by many in this Logos Community.

Two things I'd like to say:

One: I think Logos should provide a Forum Channel for this kind of sharing. How helpful it is!

Two: Rosie, remember the instructions by the airline attendant before taking off:      In case of trouble, use the oxygen for yourself first. Then you will be capable of taking care of your child.               In other words ............   TAKE CARE!          *smile*

Thank you, and all the others who responded in like fashion. I got 12 hours of sleep last night. Very good. I will try to be more mindful of my health and not get into these massive long sessions of answering posts here. It's fun, and I learn a lot as I go, and I love knowing that I'm helping people. But I do value my long-term ability to keep it up and don't want to burn out. Plus I do have other things in my life that I need to be working on (which I'm, ahem, procrastinating on). Blessings.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137281#Comment_137281

Plus I do have other things in my life that I need to be working on

Would it help if you knew that there are other insomniac excessive compulsive seekers who will guard the ship while you catch up on your procrastinations?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137326#Comment_137326

Plus I do have other things in my life that I need to be working on

Would it help if you knew that there are other insomniac excessive compulsive seekers who will guard the ship while you catch up on your procrastinations?

Yes, that does help. But I've also got a competitive streak which can be useful but can also be my downfall at times. I want to be the first one to reply and give a better response than others. That is something that I need to regularly repent of. Backing off to let others answer questions is a good discipline.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137330#Comment_137330

God isn't finished with us.[:P]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137330#Comment_137330

I want to be the first one to reply and give a better response than others.

I have a perfect solution! You post the hours you intend to sleep and we'll promise not to answer questions posed in that time period. Now you'd have to promise to rotate you sleeping hours in a manner that ensured no geographic area took more that its fair share of the delay.

Another option if you didn't want to make your sleep schedule public, would be for Logos to bring the forums down any time you need to sleep. This might be a hard sell for such a customer-oriented company. But you're friends with people in high places, right?

A less than optimal solution would be a new hide feature - all posts that were made during your sleep would be permanently hidden from your view. This is obviously simply a simulation of the better solutions provided above.

Another sub-optimal solution for the forums but probably more optimal for you, is to enroll in the MJ Center for Recovering Logos Forumists. The rates for this program are admittedly quite high (in order to enhance my research of the addiction via the addition of several high priced items to my Logos library). But the success rate is stellar (at least there have been no failures although the long term studies are not completed). However, this solution would probably be bad for the forums 'cause you wouldn't be posting any more.

But trust me, I'm here to help you.[H]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137334#Comment_137334

I have a perfect solution! You post the hours you intend to sleep...

Good idea, only I always intend to sleep from about 11am or midnight (Pacific time) to about 8am. But I never follow through with my intentions. Maybe I'm messing up the time zones. I'm sleeping from midnight Pacific time until 8am GMT and getting precisely 0 hours of sleep each night. [;)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137330#Comment_137330

But I've also got a competitive streak

I was just pondering. How wide does the streak have to become before the person is reduced to a streak on the competitive force?

Suzy

Thank you to everyone who has contributed some of their knowledge to this thread. I have found it very valuable and it has helped me to better understand some Logos features and their application (especially in this case within the framework of a very interesting subject). Your contributions are highly valued and of great benefit to us 'L platers' in L4.

Thank you to all and please look after yourselves.

God bless

Sue

David Paul

I am reading a book on the work of the Holy Spirit and came across a discussion of the meaning of "breath of life" in Genesis 2:7.

It states that "breath of life" cannot mean an immortal human soul because the same words have been used in Genesis 1:30 to describe animals and birds.

I don't want to start a theological debate here but just trying to use Logos SW to validate whether this is an accurate statement.

Using the RI feature in the ESV it shows that the Lemma in 1:30 for "breath" is 'nps' whereas in 2:7 it is 'nsmh'.

Furthermore, It does appear that the phrase "breath of life" in 1:30 is actually equivalent to "living creature" in 2:7.

Graham,

Your conclusions are correct. Humans do not have an immortal human soul. Nothing in scripture indicates they do...that is primarily a Greek infusion from the so-called Early Church Fathers. Nephesh means essentially "breather", i.e. one that has simple spirit-breath (which is not materially different from that which dogs, mice, or grasshoppers have, even if YHWH personally imparted it.) moving through them and providing life. It is surprisingly close to the Greek psuchei, which means virtually the same thing. A "soul" is a living creature. The "dust" was fashioned into a human form, advanced brain design and all, and then YHWH "breathed into it" and it "BECAME a living soul". Humans do not have inherent eternal life, for the soul that sins shall die. As David said, their is no awareness of Elohiym in the grave. When you die, you are dead. The spirit, like a "memory stick" leaves the body and returns to Him, but is non-functional like a battery that has "potential" but is incapable of imparting "life" unless inserted in a mechanical "body". All departed spirits are non-functional while their former bodies return to dust, awaiting their resurrection. That's kind of the whole point of a resurrection. If you are flapping around in heaven after death, why would you need or even want to be resurrected?

On this point, when it says "life is in the blood"--it ISN'T saying life IS the blood. It is the "air", specifically the oxygen in air, and which is "breathed in" and "infused in" the blood that imparts life to mortal creatures. The oxygen is akin to the spirit of life, a la John 3. Regarding "nephesh" which breathe in and rely upon oxygen for life, then it is a result that even bacteria, etc. are nephesh.

While I'm on the subject, Enoch and Elijah both died, just like every other human that has ever lived...they didn't get whisked away to heaven. Their "translations" were no different that the one that Phillip underwent when he was "taken" from the Ethiopian and dropped in Caesarea. The souls under the altar are "figurative language"--kind of obvious considering that it would otherwise get mighty cramped under there. Forget "how many angels on the head of a pin"--rather, "how many souls can you cram under the altar"? Y'shua Himself said that no one had ascended into heaven except the One who came down from heaven. The disobedient are destroyed, they are not roasting in eternal torment. Human ARE "mortal souls"...they do not have "immortal souls". This is precisely why is talks about humans who can "destroy the body" but the God can "destroy both body and soul". The obedient who are resurrected receive their "lives"--their "souls"--back when their personal human spirits, juiced up on the Holy Spirit (I'm speaking metaphorically) are plugged into "spirit bodies" and thus receive eternal life, which the Bible calls a gift. Eternal life is inherent in YHWH alone. Even hassatan will be destroyed eventually.

Keep studying...you'll be amazed at how much of what you learned in Sunday school is unbiblical.

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137367#Comment_137367

I am reading a book on the work of the Holy Spirit and came across a discussion of the meaning of "breath of life" in Genesis 2:7.

It states that "breath of life" cannot mean an immortal human soul because the same words have been used in Genesis 1:30 to describe animals and birds.

I don't want to start a theological debate here but just trying to use Logos SW to validate whether this is an accurate statement.

Using the RI feature in the ESV it shows that the Lemma in 1:30 for "breath" is 'nps' whereas in 2:7 it is 'nsmh'.

Furthermore, It does appear that the phrase "breath of life" in 1:30 is actually equivalent to "living creature" in 2:7.

Graham,

Your conclusions are correct. Humans do not have an immortal human soul. Nothing in scripture indicates they do...that is primarily a Greek infusion from the so-called Early Church Fathers. Nephesh means essentially "breather", i.e. one that has simple spirit-breath (which is not materially different from that which dogs, mice, or grasshoppers have, even if YHWH personally imparted it.) moving through them and providing life. It is surprisingly close to the Greek psuchei, which means virtually the same thing. A "soul" is a living creature. The "dust" was fashioned into a human form, advanced brain design and all, and then YHWH "breathed into it" and it "BECAME a living soul". Humans do not have inherent eternal life, for the soul that sins shall die. As David said, their is no awareness of Elohiym in the grave. When you die, you are dead. The spirit, like a "memory stick" leaves the body and returns to Him, but is non-functional like a battery that has "potential" but is incapable of imparting "life" unless inserted in a mechanical "body". All departed spirits are non-functional while their former bodies return to dust, awaiting their resurrection. That's kind of the whole point of a resurrection. If you are flapping around in heaven after death, why would you need or even want to be resurrected?

On this point, when it says "life is in the blood"--it ISN'T saying life IS the blood. It is the "air", specifically the oxygen in air, and which is "breathed in" and "infused in" the blood that imparts life to mortal creatures. The oxygen is akin to the spirit of life, a la John 3. Regarding "nephesh" which breathe in and rely upon oxygen for life, then it is a result that even bacteria, etc. are nephesh.

While I'm on the subject, Enoch and Elijah both died, just like every other human that has ever lived...they didn't get whisked away to heaven. Their "translations" were no different that the one that Phillip underwent when he was "taken" from the Ethiopian and dropped in Caesarea. The souls under the altar are "figurative language"--kind of obvious considering that it would otherwise get mighty cramped under there. Forget "how many angels on the head of a pin"--rather, "how many souls can you cram under the altar"? Y'shua Himself said that no one had ascended into heaven except the One who came down from heaven. The disobedient are destroyed, they are not roasting in eternal torment. Human ARE "mortal souls"...they do not have "immortal souls". This is precisely why is talks about humans who can "destroy the body" but the God can "destroy both body and soul". The obedient who are resurrected receive their "lives"--their "souls"--back when their personal human spirits, juiced up on the Holy Spirit (I'm speaking metaphorically) are plugged into "spirit bodies" and thus receive eternal life, which the Bible calls a gift. Eternal life is inherent in YHWH alone. Even hassatan will be destroyed eventually.

Keep studying...you'll be amazed at how much of what you learned in Sunday school is unbiblical.

Dear David Paul,

You have posted enough to know that it is offensive to the members of this Logos Community, and against the Logos Forum Guidelines to post this kind of theological drivel. You seem to want to deliberately upset many humble, trusting believing Brothers and Sisters.

You know better or at least should know better. What is your motive? What are you trying to prove by this "Shock" posting. I am not one of the so-called Logos MVP "star" dear brothers and sisters, so I do not have the authority to officially rebuke you and ask you to desist. But! I do find this post and your attitude quite offensive.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137375#Comment_137375

David, there are many devout and well-educated theologians who take different sides or are agnostic on the point of whether the wicked are annihilated after death or are sent to everlasting punishment. It is an open debate. There is biblical support for both positions. Your supercilious tone is unlikely to change anyone's mind who sees it the other way.

My I also remind you of the forum guidelines, which you can find linked from the upper right of the home page:

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https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137367#Comment_137367

Your conclusions are correct. Humans do not have an immortal human soul. Nothing in scripture indicates they do...that is primarily a Greek infusion from the so-called Early Church Fathers.

David,

Thank you so much for your post, it is refreshing! I get so tired of this "greek mindset" drivel that infuses every aspect of mainstream theological thinking! I seriously do not understand why people take offense to thought and conjecture! A little drash is good for the breath of life! SERIOUSLY! I think you make the whole point of biblical word study...! You MUST consider contextual mindset (ie Hebraic), you cannot just look at all of your beautiful resources, use your greek mindset and come to a nifty, and hasty conclusion! Oh BTW David did not start this "Theological" debate.... Graham did... Resources are good, but mindset is better, thanks David.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137404#Comment_137404

Hi everyone

Thanks for the responses and insight - sorry for not re-engaging sooner, it was a busy day in college yesterday including a Greek exam [:)]

Rosie - many thanks for your initial response (though I do share the concern others have expressed for your continual health!) - the comment on the use of lexicons was helpful but particularly pointing me back to the commentaries. I guess I was trying to "work this out for myself" but with my (lack of) knowledge of Hebrew that wasn't very likely! As you point out the WBC comments on this usage in 2:7 and seems to be saying that God indeed breathed into man - making him alive - with the consequence that he became alive. It goes on to say that this is not what distinguishes man from animals as animals are described in the same terms (going back to my earlier comment that the phrase translated as "living creature" in 2:7 is the same as that translated as "breath of life" in 1:30).

So - from the commentary and lexicon - the fact of God breathing into man is what made him live but it isn't what constitutes him different to the rest of the "animal world". This difference (again according to WBC) is initially that man alone is made in God's image but it does accept that man alone receives the breath of God directly which was picked up in the first post which Nicky made where she commented that 2:7 shows God breathing into man's nostrils gives us life from God's own breath, unlike animals.

M.J. - thanks for the insight from Onkelos - just not quite sure what to make of it!!

I found the discussion between Nicky and Abi very useful and it clarified some useful points about the RIs and went from there to look at "Andersen-Forbes Phrase Marker Analysis" and "Andersen-Forbes Analysed Text" for some useful insight on how the original language was laid out.

I then thought I should look at some dictionaries.

The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery argues that human breath is equated with the divine breath:

"Breath is an image that links God with humanity in creation, salvation, prophecy, faith and judgment. At the creation of Adam, “the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being” (Gen 2:7 NASB). Human breath, equated with the divine breath, is an allotment of life, a portion of the divine spark and a gift (Job 27:3).

Leland Ryken, Jim Wilhoit, Tremper Longman et al., Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, electronic ed., 119 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000)."

and that:

"Every living thing has the breath of life in its nostrils, but only man has the breath of God in his nostrils."

Leland Ryken, Jim Wilhoit, Tremper Longman et al., Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, electronic ed., 597 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000).

The Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch states:

"God is the Creator of all life: physical, animal and human (Gen 1–2). Both the creation accounts distinguish humanity from the rest of creation as created in the *image of God (Gen 1:26–27) and as receiving the divine “breath of life” (Gen 2:7). "

T. Desmond Alexander and David W. Baker, Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch, 533 (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2003).

Overall the thrust of what is being said here is that while all animal life has the breath of life it is only man who received the breath of God directly in him and that this is part of man's uniqueness with another significant part being that we are created in God's image and likeness.

However (back to my original post), to say that

"breath of life" cannot mean an immortal human soul because the same words have been used in Genesis 1:30 to describe animals and birds.

is not correct because different Hebrew words are used for "breath of life" in 1:30 and 2:7. This doesn't - of course - mean that it is necessarily correct to infer from "breath of life" in 2:7 that man does have an immortal soul. We find that elsewhere but that's a different discussion!

Thanks again

Graham

EDIT: I started this reply before seeing Nathan's response so shouldn't be seen in any way as a response to what he posted

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137460#Comment_137460

Oh BTW David did not start this "Theological" debate.... Graham did...

Ah, the discussion is at the "he started it" stage? It does not matter who started it. What matters is that we play by Logos' rules in Logos' forums. Even if that is an English-law Greek-logic mindset.[:)]

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137466#Comment_137466

Ah, the discussion is at the "he started it" stage? It does not matter who started it. What matters is that we play by Logos' rules in Logos' forums. Even if that is an English-law Greek-logic mindset.

I noticed that you missed the whole point...resources are great but mindset is better. Lexicons are great but mindset is better..do you want me to go on...? How lame, mr. m.j., this is not about "rules", the whole context of this thread is about how to use L4 to understand the original language...ie mindset. So as long as we play along in (conform to) this "greek" utopia we are within the "rules". You missed the whole point dude.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137476#Comment_137476

I noticed that you missed the whole point...resources are great but mindset is better. Lexicons are great but mindset is better..do you want me to go on...? How lame, mr. m.j., this is not about "rules", the whole context of this thread is about how to use L4 to understand the original language...ie mindset. So as long as we play along in (conform to) this "greek" utopia we are within the "rules". You missed the whole point dude.

That would be "dudette". "Martha" puts the M in MJ. [:)]

Having established that, Martha and Rosie's point is that theological debate is not permitted in the forums. These are forums on how to use Logos software to their fullest extent. If we can keep the breath of life discussion within that realm - we can continue it and live within the Forum guidelines which Rosie posted.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137518#Comment_137518

I think we can allow ourselves some latitude with asides, e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software? I think it's important to show respect for those with whom we differ and not rubbish those who think differently or hurl insults at one another.

Rosie, I too have appreciated your help so often. Incidentally it took me a long time to realise that your photo showed a dog sitting on your shoulder - at first I thought it was either a zoom lens or a telescope! To have one of my dogs looking over my shoulder, he'd have to have his feet on the ground and his head over his paws on my shoulder! Must work on it.

Incidentally, (?Martha?) how do I find the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit? How can I search in a single book?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137037#Comment_137037

Here I go replying to my own post again. (Getting to be a bad habit.)

There are enough tools in Logos to give an answer to the first statement. If the Hebrew scholars who told me what it says are correct, your deduction is on target

After reading a few of the "there is no literal hell" posts I think I may have misunderstood your final deduction "living creature." This is why it is necessary to go to the original language. English can be so vague. I refuse to mud wrestle in theological debate today. (One day at a time, right?)

My point of clarification is: Those Hebrew scholars have told me there is a difference between animal life and human life based on this verse.

My recommendation is to jump on that Pre-Pub before it starts shipping today. http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5876

And study for yourself. The world is full of false doctrine and erroneous opinions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137524#Comment_137524

e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software?

I tried to make an Icon on the Toolbar for the command "Ask Rosie to see if she can find an answer" but could not get it to save.

After trying everything I could, I decided that its not a supported comand, and maybe Rosie just helps when she likes ...

(Thanks Rosie - just teasing in what I hope you understand is a fun way [:)])

Nathan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137518#Comment_137518

That would be "dudette". "Martha" puts the M in MJ.

My "mindset" was Gender Neutral....

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137524#Comment_137524

I think we can allow ourselves some latitude with asides, e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software? I think it's important to show respect for those with whom we differ and not rubbish those who think differently or hurl insults at one another.

Rosie, I too have appreciated your help so often. Incidentally it took me a long time to realise that your photo showed a dog sitting on your shoulder - at first I thought it was either a zoom lens or a telescope! To have one of my dogs looking over my shoulder, he'd have to have his feet on the ground and his head over his paws on my shoulder! Must work on it.

Incidentally, (?Martha?) how do I find the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit? How can I search in a single book?

A dog? I thought she was holding a camera with one hand on top of the body and the other under the lens (the way I hold a camera for a vertical shot). Considering the mountain in the background I thought the camera was most likely.

Perhaps you could be a bit more explicit regarding "the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit" since I'm not sure what you're asking.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137524#Comment_137524

Edit: I changed my mind, so deleted what I had here before.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137524#Comment_137524

how do I find the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit? How can I search in a single book?

If you open a book, you can select "Find in this panel" from the resource menu or CNTRL +F will bring up the search window.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137613#Comment_137613

A dog? I thought she was holding a camera with one hand on top of the body and the other under the lens (the way I hold a camera for a vertical shot).

I think Rosie said it was her camera in an old post. If it is her dog,maybe she is about to toss him vertically...........[&]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/137476#Comment_137476

I noticed that you missed the whole point...resources are great but mindset is better.

Actually I didn't miss your point; I agree with it. My educational background is philosophy and South Asian languages (Sanskrit, Pail, Vedic, Avestan and such). As such, my own mindset is far more catholic than most (pun intended, I am also Catholic). I am always pressing for more resources from the Greek and Eastern churches because I get frustrated at the mindless assumption that Christian worldview=Western worldview.

However, I think that the original poster was asking how to research a theological idea that he had heard rather than his promoting belief for or against that stand. Therefore, I think that he stayed within the guidelines and felt it important that he not be left with the feeling he'd done something inappropriate. That was the complete purpose of my response. I suspect that it was my humor (English-law, Greek-logic) that made you think I disagreed with your comments on mindset. I apologize. They referred back to a discussion that many on the forums probably did not follow - I need to remember to think more by thread than by forum.