Breath of life

Hi Graham,

Sorry I can't directly answer your question. I have been learning some Greek, but no Hebrew so far. Maybe a later date ...

I wanted to comment, as you seem to be saying it yourself: Someone saying "this" equals "that" based on a translation, may not in fact hold true once someone studies the underlying original language.

So your question is a good example of why Logos4 is so useful to me. Its easy for me to search by Greek lemma and compair verses, rather than based on the English translation. I know Hebrew has a related idea, but there is something new I have yet to get my head around: the "root" concept I have seen spoken of; so until I get some clues on Hebrew, for me, I would not assume I know if two "base" words are the same or different.

Graham, my Hebrew is rusty, but I can at least direct you to resources and features in Logos which should help you understand the range of meanings of these two related words. Looking in commentaries that discuss the underlying Hebrew words is also helpful, if you have any of those in your Library. What base package are you working with?

The Hebrew word in Gen 2:7 is נשׁמה (nsmh). You can look that up in a Hebrew lexicon by right-clicking the English word "breath" in the ESV, then you'll see Lemma among the tabs on the right of the popup menu. Make sure this tab is selected and you'll see the following options on the left side of the menu:

The three most useful options on the left for you will be "Look up," "Search this resource," and "Bible Word Study."

Look up does a basic Lectionary Lexicon lookup. It will depend on which lectionary lexicon or lectionaries lexicons you have available in your library and how you have them prioritized, but I've got Enhanced BDB as my preferred lectionary lexicon, so this is what I get if I click on Look up:

As you can see from the four possible definitions, this can mean breath (either of God, of man, or of every breathing thing) or spirit of man.

If you have multiple lexicons and you want to see what other ones say about this word, you can click on the + tab to the right of your lexicon tab and it will open up a list of all your lexicons that have entries for this word. You can work your way through each of them and see what you learn from that exploration.

The next useful command is "Search this resource" which will find all the other occurrences of that lemma in your ESV (Old Testament). You can look through the various ways it has been translated by the ESV Scholars and get a better idea in context of its range of possible meanings. That won't necessarily tell you what it means in Genesis 2:7, but it gets you partway there.

The "Bible Word Study" sort of combines the best of both of those commands and then some:

Up at the top you'll see a brief summary of glosses (short definitions) of your word:

You can click "more" to show more lexicons (if you have more) and if you hover over a blue highlighted lexicon name, it will pop up the beginning of the entry for that word in that lexicon:

The next section below (Definition) has this nifty exploding wheel that shows you all the different ways that Hebrew word is translated:

If you click on one section of the ring, it will expand out and show you all the verses in the ESV where that Hebrew word is translated by the English word the segment is labeled with. Here it's easy to see that spirit is only used to translate one of the occurrences of nsmh:

All of this is very interesting, but if you don't know Hebrew well, you can't really learn why the translators might have chosen breath for the translation in Gen 2:7. Here's where looking in commentaries is helpful. Here's a brief excerpt from the Word Biblical Commentary volume that covers that part of Genesis. WBC has good discussions of the meanings of Hebrew words and how they relate to the overall meaning of the verse.

The UBS Handbook on Genesis also has some good information on 2:7: "The breath of life is to be understood as 'the breath that gives life' or 'the breath that causes the man to live.'"

If you want to search through your whole library looking for any other places where Genesis 2:7 is discussed, use this search syntax

<Gen 2:7>

Then do all the same stuff I've just described for Gen 1:30, and you should be well on your way to understanding these subtle differences in more depth.

MJ. Smith said:

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Rosie Perera said:

Look up does a basic Lectionary lookup.

Is this a new feature? Lectionaries usually deal with lections; lexicons deal with lexemes.

Oops, I should go to bed! [:)]

EDIT: I just fixed my other post. You know, it kind of made sense to my sleep-deprived brain. I must have conflated lexicon + dictionary = lectionary. [:P]

Here I go again, replying to my own post..........

Matthew C Jones said:

This is a great example of why we need the new resource "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew" featured in today's blog. http://blog.logos.com/

Or we could all cancel our Pre-Pub orders and let Rosie (with a little help from MJ) teach us how to benefit from our Logos tools.

Seriously, I think that is partly what this new reource will help teach me. I got a little of this instruction at Camp Logos but haven't put it in to practice.

Really cool to see it demonstrated so clearly. Thanks Rosie.

JimT said:

So, this solution needs two steps:

1) We help fund Rosie to have EVERY possible resource that is in Logos format (and maybe some dead-tree ones that are not), then

2) We ask Rosie and she does a complete study for us and posts it back here.

I expect she would welcome (1) but not (2) ...

If you could arrange some way to get my sleep for me (so that I actually benefit from it) then I might be more open to #2. [:P]

Um - If I write something here, Rosie will read it ..

If I don't write something here, Rosie will stay up in case I do, so she can read it.

So, as I expect you will read this, Please Rosie, go sleep and read the rest of any message much later or tomorrow, or the day after that.

Take care of yourself please.

Speaking on a different matter, Paul tells the readers that the body is a temple for the Holy Spirit, and to Glorify God with our body.

I understand from Genesis 2  7 that God formed man from earth (I learn from commentaries in Logos that dust doesn't necessarily mean dry powder).  But man was not yet alive.  So God breathed into his nostrils breath (neshamah, not ruah, as I had been told and believed till I read the original) and so gave him life.  i.e. we have life from God's own breath, unlike animals.  "thus man became a living soul/being".  We can model a man from clay - but can't make it live - only God can do that.  I understand that the tree of life, which they were not forbidden, would have given them eternal life.  So, instead of eating from that tree, they chose to follow the suggestions of the snake and eat from the one tree God in his love had forbidden them, and thus they were cut off from the tree of life.

I wouldn't necessarily advise people to take the years I needed to learn enough Hebrew for it to help me with my Bible study.  But, having put in that time, I feel bereft if I don't have a Hebrew testament to hand.  Now I take that on computer with Logos if I'm away just for a few days.

So, although I'm not ordering it for myself, I do recommend that people think hard about getting the Logos Greek and Hebrew language software if they don't have a reasonable knowledge of Greek and Hebrew.  And I'm not being paid for making this recommendation!!!

Graham Criddle said:

or is what I have done above sufficient?

It would seem that the "original text" in an interlinear ( also in Logos exegetical guide) is directly tied to a particular translation. In Genesus 1:30, the word "breath" occurs in the ESV, but not in the NASB, KJ, or NKJ. So in those translations...it would appear that it never was in the original.

How do we know which translation/interlinear is closest to the ACTUAL original text? The inclusion, or exclusion of that one word dramatically changes this discussion.[:)]

 Nevermind

nicky crane said:

When helping semi-literate Albanian villagers who have a limited vocabulary

Thanks;

I hope this doesn't end up being a double post. I posted these thoughts some time ago...and as of yet, they have not appeared.

I was just overwhelmed to have to admit that the interlinears and the exegetical guide were that unreliable. Though I love the KJV, i have long been aware of errors in the translation. I just didn't realize that errors/deletions in a translation, are mirrored in the interlinear for that particular translation. Being semi-literate,  i just ASSUMED that the "original text" we see in the interlinear held more or less to the actual original...Live and Learn.

kjv interlinear does have the Hebrew nephesh hayyah  (נֶ֣פֶשׁ חַיָּ֔ה) in the interlinear at the bottom.  Also at +, highlighted, if you pass your mouse over it, it says  Heb. a living soul.  I'm learning lots about Logos 4 by following this up!

Milford Charles Murray said:

Peace Indeed, Rosie.  I'd like to echo William's thoughts.   Your post was fantastically beautiful and helpful.  I also have communicated with God through our Lord Jesus Christ a number of times about you and your welfare; and I will again, I'm sure.

           But, sharing takes it's toll.          How often care givers "burn out"!      Let God help you not do that, Rosie.  I can say -- with so many others -- that you are truly appreciated and -- I am pleased to say -- even "loved" by many in this Logos Community.

Two things I'd like to say:

One:  I think Logos should provide a Forum Channel for this kind of sharing.  How helpful it is!

Two:  Rosie, remember the instructions by the airline attendant before taking off:      In case of trouble, use the oxygen for yourself first.  Then you will be capable of taking care of your child.               In other words ............   TAKE CARE!          *smile*

Thank you, and all the others who responded in like fashion. I got 12 hours of sleep last night. Very good. I will try to be more mindful of my health and not get into these massive long sessions of answering posts here. It's fun, and I learn a lot as I go, and I love knowing that I'm helping people. But I do value my long-term ability to keep it up and don't want to burn out. Plus I do have other things in my life that I need to be working on (which I'm, ahem, procrastinating on). Blessings.

Abi Gail said:

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Rosie Perera said:

Plus I do have other things in my life that I need to be working on

Would it help if you knew that there are other insomniac excessive compulsive seekers who will guard the ship while you catch up on your procrastinations?

Yes, that does help. But I've also got a competitive streak which can be useful but can also be my downfall at times. I want to be the first one to reply and give a better response than others. That is something that I need to regularly repent of. Backing off to let others answer questions is a good discipline.

Rosie Perera said:

But I've also got a competitive streak

I was just pondering.  How wide does the streak have to become before the person is reduced to a streak on the competitive force?

Graham Criddle said:

I am reading a book on the work of the Holy Spirit and came across a discussion of the meaning of "breath of life" in Genesis 2:7.

It states that "breath of life" cannot mean an immortal human soul because the same words have been used in Genesis 1:30 to describe animals and birds.

I don't want to start a theological debate here but just trying to use Logos SW to validate whether this is an accurate statement.

Using the RI feature in the ESV it shows that the Lemma in 1:30 for "breath" is 'nps' whereas in 2:7 it is 'nsmh'.

Furthermore, It does appear that the phrase "breath of life" in 1:30 is actually equivalent to "living creature" in 2:7.

Graham,

Your conclusions are correct. Humans do not have an immortal human soul. Nothing in scripture indicates they do...that is primarily a Greek infusion from the so-called Early Church Fathers. Nephesh means essentially "breather", i.e. one that has simple spirit-breath (which is not materially different from that which dogs, mice, or grasshoppers have, even if YHWH personally imparted it.)  moving through them and providing life. It is surprisingly close to the Greek psuchei, which means virtually the same thing. A "soul" is a living creature. The "dust" was fashioned into a human form, advanced brain design and all, and then YHWH "breathed into it" and it "BECAME a living soul". Humans do not have inherent eternal life, for the soul that sins shall die. As David said, their is no awareness of Elohiym in the grave. When you die, you are dead. The spirit, like a "memory stick" leaves the body and returns to Him, but is non-functional like a battery that has "potential" but is incapable of imparting "life" unless inserted in a mechanical "body". All departed spirits are non-functional while their former bodies return to dust, awaiting their resurrection. That's kind of the whole point of a resurrection. If you are flapping around in heaven after death, why would you need or even want to be resurrected?

On this point, when it says "life is in the blood"--it ISN'T saying life IS the blood. It is the "air", specifically the oxygen in air, and which is "breathed in" and "infused in" the blood that imparts life to mortal creatures. The oxygen is akin to the spirit of life, a la John 3. Regarding "nephesh" which breathe in and rely upon oxygen for life, then it is a result that even bacteria, etc. are nephesh.

While I'm on the subject, Enoch and Elijah both died, just like every other human that has ever lived...they didn't get whisked away to heaven. Their "translations" were no different that the one that Phillip underwent when he was "taken" from the Ethiopian and dropped in Caesarea. The souls under the altar are "figurative language"--kind of obvious considering that it would otherwise get mighty cramped under there. Forget "how many angels on the head of a pin"--rather, "how many souls can you cram under the altar"? Y'shua Himself said that no one had ascended into heaven except the One who came down from heaven. The disobedient are destroyed, they are not roasting in eternal torment. Human ARE "mortal souls"...they do not have "immortal souls". This is precisely why is talks about humans who can "destroy the body" but the God can "destroy both body and soul". The obedient who are resurrected receive their "lives"--their "souls"--back when their personal human spirits, juiced up on the Holy Spirit (I'm speaking metaphorically) are plugged into "spirit bodies" and thus receive eternal life, which the Bible calls a gift. Eternal life is inherent in YHWH alone. Even hassatan will be destroyed eventually.

Keep studying...you'll be amazed at how much of what you learned in Sunday school is unbiblical.

David, there are many devout and well-educated theologians who take different sides or are agnostic on the point of whether the wicked are annihilated after death or are sent to everlasting punishment. It is an open debate. There is biblical support for both positions. Your supercilious tone is unlikely to change anyone's mind who sees it the other way.

My I also remind you of the forum guidelines, which you can find linked from the upper right of the home page:

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MJ. Smith said:

Ah, the discussion is at the "he started it" stage? It does not matter who started it. What matters is that we play by Logos' rules in Logos' forums. Even if that is an English-law Greek-logic mindset.

I noticed that you missed the whole point...resources are great but mindset is better.  Lexicons are great but mindset is better..do you want me to go on...?  How lame, mr. m.j., this is not about "rules", the whole context of this thread is about how to use L4  to understand the original language...ie mindset.  So as long as we play along in (conform to) this "greek" utopia we are within the "rules".  You missed the whole point dude.

I think we can allow ourselves some latitude with asides, e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software?  I think it's important to show respect for those with whom we differ and not rubbish those who think differently or hurl insults at one another.

Rosie, I too have appreciated your help so often.  Incidentally it took me a long time to realise that your photo showed a dog sitting on your shoulder - at first I thought it was either a zoom lens or a telescope!  To have one of my dogs looking over my shoulder, he'd have to have his feet on the ground and his head over his paws on my shoulder!  Must work on it.

Incidentally, (?Martha?) how do I find the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit?  How can I search in a single book?

nicky crane said:

e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software?

I tried to make an Icon on the Toolbar for the command "Ask Rosie to see if she can find an answer" but could not get it to save.

After trying everything I could, I decided that its not a supported comand, and maybe Rosie just helps when she likes ...

(Thanks Rosie - just teasing in what I hope you understand is a fun way [:)])

nicky crane said:

I think we can allow ourselves some latitude with asides, e.g. concern for Rosie's health - or does she count as an integral part of Logos Bible Software?  I think it's important to show respect for those with whom we differ and not rubbish those who think differently or hurl insults at one another.

Rosie, I too have appreciated your help so often.  Incidentally it took me a long time to realise that your photo showed a dog sitting on your shoulder - at first I thought it was either a zoom lens or a telescope!  To have one of my dogs looking over my shoulder, he'd have to have his feet on the ground and his head over his paws on my shoulder!  Must work on it.

Incidentally, (?Martha?) how do I find the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit?  How can I search in a single book? 

A dog?  I thought she was holding a camera with one hand on top of the body and the other under the lens (the way I hold a camera for a vertical shot).  Considering the mountain in the background I thought the camera was most likely.  

Perhaps you could be a bit more explicit regarding "the reference in Torah thro time to speaking spirit" since I'm not sure what you're asking.