Reformed theology, Logos, and the rest of us.

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

As a Catholic, I'm a longways from TULIP. It all depends on what you call "balanced". Logos, like any company, gives preferential treatment to products that sell well. However, they do make an effort, especially through partnerships, to cover the broader Judeo-Christian market. With some of the user-driven selection of works to go into production, one doesn't need a large number of people to get resources for other theological schools - only enough to meet production costs. In addition users can create and share resources (in L3 but coming soon in L4) to add specialty resources.

Given the number of Messianic Jews on the forums, I think you are safe in assuming that there is enough benefit for you to risk the investment.

Fred Chapman

I have been thoroughly enjoying the Logos program and resources. Little by little, I have been noticing the slant of the program is toward the Reformed-Calvinist theological postion. Is this true?

I am a spirit filled Jewish believer in my Messiah and have recently redicated myself to ardent study.

While I am interest in all areas of theological and biblical studies, I have no intention at the age of 60 in becoming a Calvinist.

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

I would say the slant toward one theological or doctrinal position over another depends on what you have in your library and what resources you turn to during your studies. I have the platinum library with a number of additional resources. My experience has been that the commentaries and other resources in my library usually reflect the position of the writers and contributors of those resources.

I would add that, in terms of the range of products logos offers, I do not really see a slant or bias either way . If that is what you are seeing, can you provide an example of where you are seeing the an unbalanced approach by Logos?

Dan Sheppard

Shmuel-

An orthodox Lutheran here (Missouri Synod).

Much of the reason I came to Logos, was due to the fact that my previous Bible software did not provide the availability to the Lutheran resources, which Logos does. There is scant little, which they DON'T have.

But there is definitely a slant I would say, to both Calvinist and Arminian.

Thankful that I found the Lutheran doctrine adequately represented here.

Mark Smith

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

I can't speak for Logos but you are right about the mass of new Reformed-oriented material being published in Logos format. Having been a Logos customer for many years I would have to say this is all rather recent.

Much of what has recently been offered is older stuff. It has been requested by users for years, so Logos may only be interested in giving the users what they have asked for.You'll note that much of it has not gathered enough interest to go into publication.

I suspect some of what you are seeing may have to do with the vast number of volumes dedicated to Reformed theology that have been published. Reformed theologians have written a lot of books. Some other theological viewpoints simply don't have the number of theological works in print that the Reformed view does.

Reformed theology also has a few active evangelical authors with major followings that Logos has responded to, as they should (Piper and Sproul come to mind).

There has been a bit of a Reformed theology resurgence of late in American evangelical churches and that may explain some of it as well.

I haven't noticed any tendency on Logos' part to promote a single point of view. Far from it.

Please make use of the Suggestions section of the forum to propose any works you feel would help 'balance' the current flow.

I guess I was especially awakened to this when I notice the recent book that is being promoted that presents a critique of Keswick Theology, "Let Go and Let God" by Andy Naiselli.

I was not aware of this term. However, when I researched it a bit, I found that the "Keswick" movement was of the Arminian postion and included people such as Finney, Moody, Andrew Murray, Hudson Taylor, etc. I was a bit concerned, because it has always been my goal to be in quest of God's fire and the salvation of others.

I am willing to study what the new Reformed movement people are saying, but I doubt that I will abandon a fresh pursuit of God for a sovereignty of God theological position.

While I am in favor of reading books written by someone like Naiselli, is Logos also promoting others books that include the Arminian-Weslyean- free will emphasis?

Thank you. What you just said is helpful.

Mark Smith

I guess I was especially awakened to this when I notice the recent book that is being promoted that presents a critique of Keswick Theology, "Let Go and Let God" by Andy Naiselli.

I suppose you're referring to the Logos Blog on this book. I see that not as a promotion of the content of the book but of the way it was produced and is being published.

is Logos also promoting others books that include the Arminian-Weslyean- free will emphasis

As I suggested you may want to make numerous suggestions of works from the Arminian-Wesleyan perspective you feel would help balance this perceived bias. I don't see the promotion (in the sense of trying to sell a certain theological focus) that you are referring to.

J. Morris

I'd say you've noticed correctly. The slant has seemed to pick up since the L4 release IMO.

I have been thoroughly enjoying the Logos program and resources. Little by little, I have been noticing the slant of the program is toward the Reformed-Calvinist theological postion. Is this true? I am a spirit filled Jewish believer in my Messiah and have recently redicated myself to ardent study. While I am interest in all areas of theological and biblical studies, I have no intention at the age of 60 in becoming a Calvinist. Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

You are not the first person to raise questions about theological "leanings" & "balance" in resources offered by Logos. I will grant you there have been many Calvinist & Reformed works published lately. But there have also been many that are not "in the TULIP direction." There are a couple different ways of looking at this fact.

First, Logos has been around for many years and just recently got around to Calvin, Spurgeon and their buddies. So someone with an aversion to TULIPs [W] can claim Logos held off as long as they could until the Reformers stormed Bellingham's gates. [6]

Second, I am not a Calvinist either but I bought both the Calvin 500 Collection http://www.logos.com/products/details/5170 and The Spurgeon Collection http://www.logos.com/products/details/4793 and many others "in the TULIP direction." So maybe Logos is just concentrating on what will sell the most copies and use the profits to fund those titles (& alternate persuasions) that don't have the broad appeal yet merit publishing.

Third, I doubt Logos is trying to convert you away from your present beliefs & practices. They do offer extensive resources right in line with your interests. Here are search results for "Messianic" http://www.logos.com/search?q=messianic and for "Jewish Collection" http://www.logos.com/search?q=jewish+collection . You will see there are a LOT of great titles.

I am just happy Logos goes much broader than just Pastoral, or Ministerial, or Theological, or Academic. It really is going to be the Bible software for everyone.

One last thought :Many of us forget how many resources Logos offers because we only view the Pre-Pub page, Community Pricing page and Logos announcements of new releases. Whenever you have a few HOURS go over to http://www.logos.com/products/groups/list/allitems and scan through everything to see what is already published. It is kind of depressing if you don't play the lottery...........So many cool books, so little money!

Floyd Johnson

is Logos also promoting others books that include the Arminian-Weslyean- free will emphasis?

I have been a strong promoter of Wesleyan-Arminian works (see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/6387/49594.aspx). A number of years ago I suggested a number of books from this perspective - over the last three or four years I have seen about half of the books either being offered through pre-pub or community pricing. About two thirds of those have moved into development or actually been produced for purchase. There are still a couple of works/sets on pre-pub - there are currently no Wesleyan-Arminian works in community pricing. A number of works from the Wesleyan Publishing House have been included in the pre-pub offerings - some are still there.

I hope that helps you identify some material from this perspective.

is Logos also promoting others books that include the Arminian-Weslyean- free will emphasis?

Here are some:

Wesleyan–Arminian Collection (81 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/1915
Wesleyan Bible Commentary Series (18 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/4747
Keith Drury Collection (6 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/4883
Systematic Theology by John Miley (2 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/4300
Holiness Collection (8 Vols.) http://www.logos.com/products/details/4879

But there is definitely a slant I would say, to both Calvinist and Arminian.

Thankful that I found the Lutheran doctrine adequately represented here.

[:)] Of course it really helps when Logos has very cooperative third parties to help bring the resources to publication. Concordia House & Fortress Press have been stellar in their performance. That is why Lutheran material is so well represented.

Thank you. I have also been tremendously blessed by reading the books offered by EM Bounds on prayer.

Years ago, as a bible college student, I remember being exposed to a basic but often stimulating commentary called Beacon. I checked and noticed a few volumes of this commentary, now called New Beacon, are available.

The slant has seemed to pick up since the L4 release IMO.

Who knows? Maybe an anonymous benefactor bequeathed a million dollars towards the publication of Reformed resources. I have noticed Reformed seminaries across the USA have been offering greatly reduced tuition or even FREE education lately.

But do consider some of my observations. I could point out several new Catholic titles in Pre-Pub. It has been a long time coming. Now, if I can only get some Stone-Campbell resources in Pre-Pub. [;)] And don't forget Fred & I want Mennonite works.

Jeremy

Companies make products that they think their customers want or else they will be out of business soon enough. The Neo-Reformed movement is getting very popular. Time magazine two years ago said that it was one of the ten leading movements shaping the world. But you will find plenty of material from multiple theological perspectives on Logos. I don't think Logos is trying to secretly change the theological leanings of their customers by putting out more Driscoll and Piper material. They are just producing what the demand is.

John Wesley and Adam Clarke Collection (85 Vols.)

I never thought thay anything was being done secretively. I just began wondering whether they have a theological board that oversees what products are produced and promoted.

I have not really kept up with current theological movements (especially in the US). I live in Israel and have been just seeking to seek and serve God among my people.

I have always been both fascinated and baffled by the doctrines of bothe Calvinism and Arminianism and was taught to "oscillate" between them but not vaccillate! I respect sincere men of faith and theology on both sides.

J.R. Miller

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

You may want to purchase these Wesleyan items.

Currently Available:

Wesleyan–Arminian Collection (81 Vols.)

Wesleyan Bible Commentary Series (18 Vols.)

Systematic Theology, by John Miley (2 Vols.)

Holiness Collection (8 Vols.)

Eerdmans Wesleyan Bible Commentary (7 Vols.)

Thomas C. Oden's Systematic Theology (3 Vols.)

Classical Pastoral Care (4 Vols.)

Under Development

Compendium of Christian Theology, 2nd ed., by William Burt Pope (3 Vols.)

In Prepub (will go live when there is enough interested buyers)

Wesleyan Ministry Collection (5 Vols.)

Eerdmans Wesleyan Bible Commentary (7 Vols.)

Keith Drury Collection (6 Vols.)

Wesleyan Ministry Collection (5 Vols.)

Keith Drury Collection (6 Vols.)

Stan Toler Collection (6 Vols.)

Cyclopaedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature (12 Vols.)

Also, there are a variety of Pentecostal and Charismatic reference work which is certainly not a "TULIP" resource:

Foundations of Pentecostal Theology

The Century of the Holy Spirit : 100 Years of Pentecostal and Charismatic Renewal, 1901-2001

Spirit-Filled Life Study Bible

Words of Light and Life Collection (7 Vols.) [DOWNLOAD]

The Holy Spirit: Works & Gifts

Hayford's Bible Handbook

These just came up in a few minutes of searching. There may be more if you search the 14,000 books in our Library. If there is somehting specific you want, send your suggestion to us suggest@logos.com.

J.R. Miller

I just began wondering whether they have a theological board that oversees what products are produced and promoted.

No.. we publish what our users ask for and where the demand lies.

Blessings

Bohuslav Wojnar

The Century of the Holy Spirit : 100 Years of Pentecostal and Charismatic Renewal, 1901-2001

Wow, Joe, how have you found this one? I never knew it exists in Logos. Thank you [Y]

EDIT: downloading the resource [:)] thanks again.

Mike Childs

I am firmly in the evangelical Wesleyan-Arminian theological camp. I am a United Methodist pastor and graduate of Asbury Theological Seminary.

However, I benefit from many Calvinist theologians. I love Spurgeon and even benefit from Calvin's commentaries. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is another of my favorites. I can sift out the Calvinist theology and benefit greatly from the insights of these men of God. I hold to what is good and let the other go. I have more in common with a Calvinist who loves God's Word than a Wesleyan-Arminian who is liberal.

There are a number of great biblical scholars of the Wesleyan-Arminian persuasion in Logos. John Oswalt's commentaries on Isaiah in the NICOT series, for example. He also is in the Cornerstone Commentary set. Bill Arnold also has some great stuff in Logos. They both are great evangelical scholars of the Wesleyan-Arminian school.

Wesley's works are available, but they are the old Jackson series. I do wish the new more scholarly series edited by Albert Outler would be released by Logos. That would be a tremendous asset for those of us in the Wesleyan-Arminian camp.

Thank you Joe. I appreciate hearing this.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my experience with Logos since I purchased it in August. I just started noticing all these new items by the Reformed side. I am not sorry that I brought up the subject, but even more grateful for the clarification.

As for charismatic publications, I have grown used to not even expecting material on this subject! Thanks for letting me know.

J.R. Miller

The Century of the Holy Spirit : 100 Years of Pentecostal and Charismatic Renewal, 1901-2001

Wow, Joe, how have you found this one? I never knew it exists in Logos. Thank you

EDIT: downloading the resource thanks again.

I bought it many years ago when I was researching for my books on early Pentecostalism and Baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Blessings

http://www.logos.com/search?q=fruchtenbaum

we publish what our users ask for and where the demand lies

I am not "Pentecostal" or "Charismatic" but I really like this one:

It is hard to find outside of Swaggart's website. I believe Jimmy is Assembly of God. I like his singing too. [C]

Roger Feenstra

Little by little, I have been noticing the slant of the program is toward the Reformed-Calvinist theological postion.

If you use the word "slant" as a viewpoint of Logos, I'm not sure that's the case. I would use the word more in the sense that many of their titles are weighted toward a Reformed viewpoint. In the end Logos is a bookstore. They need to sell books. I am certain that they will sell what their customers desire (so long as the title is orthodox in nature).

I am a spirit filled Jewish believer in my Messiah and have recently redicated myself to ardent study

You are already aware of these titles, but others may want to check out some of the great works of my friend Arnold Fruchtenbaum.

Friedrich

Shmuel,

Some resources people have NOT mentioned that are not so Calvinist are:

The Socio-Rhetorical Commentary series. I can't vouch for the whole series, but Ben Witherington III, a major contributor, is Wesleyan, I believe.

Also, a "non-Calvinist" and clearly communicating theologian is Dr. Jack Cottrell. His "The Faith Once for All" is a systematic theology, and Logos also has his two-volume series on Romans.

Blessings to you, brother!

Garth Aderholt

Just wondering which prevails? The "users ask" or the users "demand"? My reasoning is that as the reformed users increase, the demand shifts increasingly toward reformed doctrine. I do not know what products the users have been suggesting, but it definately seems that those who are asking for free will/choice, unlimited atonement, grace toward all men... and/or dispensational, pre-tribulational theolygy, texts and authors are not making the list very often. especially in the area of Logos theology choices. Does this suggest that if the "users ask" is not desired by the majority of "users" , that the "users ask" will not be granted?

I am not saying that Logos has been unfair, only noting that the as the user base changes, the demand changes, and those of us users in the minority could suggest a product, and their "ask" will not be a "demand" by majority of users and thus be ignored. I do not know this to be true, just wondering.

I would like to suggest a few Text books I have been looking for that I have not been able to find compatible with Logos. "Basic Bible Interpretation" by Roy B. Zuck; "Basic Theology" Charles Ryrie; "Lectures in Sysematic Theology" by Henry C. Thiesen. Norman Geisler's four volume theological Set.

Logos has provided me with so many of the books, rescources and authors that I desire to have in my library. Just want to find some more of the authors and books I read and study.

Oh, one other question. What is up with the addition of the Catholic books, rescources, theology and teachings being added to Logos? what is the Logos boards justification of placing the Catholic doctrine and teachings into the pool with the rest of the Logos rescources?

Not sure you wanted all of this, but hope you can help me understand,

Garth

Donn Arms

This one is easy. Calvinists buy books and Logos sells books. Did you notice how quickly Dagg moved into production on CP?

David Kirk Davis

Donn Has it correct. Just to add that Calvinists, Lutherans and academic Roman Catholics have produced the vast majority of scholarship throughout the years. Not a critique of other traditions but just a statement of fact.

Ben

"Calvinists, Lutherans and academic Roman Catholics have produced the vast majority of scholarship"

Uh, Jews have been known to write a little bit here and there... Or are we being NT-centric and ignoring the other half of the Bible?

Uh, Jews have been known to write a little bit here and there..

Right on ... but the Anglicans and Orthodox have also held up their end of scholarship.[;)]

Wes Saad

Did you notice how quickly Dagg moved into production on CP?

While unfortunately, John Gill continues to languish.

Donn Arms

Did you notice how quickly Dagg moved into production on CP?

While unfortunately, John Gill continues to languish.

So what do we have to do to get Gill moving?

While unfortunately, John Gill continues to languish.

For Logo's to mention the debate about Gill's role as the father of Baptist hyper-Calvinism, without mentioning this debate is over one statement in all his works, isn't a great selling tactic.The fact that during his lifetime, Gill and his church backed the preaching and ministry of George Whitefield, should be proof he wasn't a hyper-Calvinist.

So what do we have to do to get Gill moving?

Have Logos remove mentioning the debate or explain why the debate started.

Lynden O. Williams

While I am interest in all areas of theological and biblical studies,

We share this in common. Logos even has material for my beliefs. Run a search for Seventh-day Adventists. If users ask for it, or a publishing house asks Logos to publish it, then it will be done. We even have a study Bible. "Andrews University Study Bible."

Blessings.

Mike Childs

Most of us would always like more resources that reflect our own point of view. It always seems that they slant to the other point of view.

However, as an evangelical Wesleyan - Arminian - Methodist, who has used Logos for at least 15 years, I have concluded that they honestly try to serve the entire Christian community. And they do a pretty job of it. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Now, if only they would publish ___________ . (Fill in the blank with whatever favorite resources that you are waiting on.)

JT (alabama24)

I have concluded that they honestly try to serve the entire Christian community. And they do a pretty job of it. Of course, that is just my opinion.

Now, if only they would publish ___________ . (Fill in the blank with whatever favorite resources that you are waiting on.)

[Y][:)]

Most of us would always like more resources that reflect our own point of view.

Given that I started all but one of the threads on fgh's list and that I put St. Vladimir's and Logos in touch with each other, am I a closet Orthodox ... so deep in the closet that even I don't know I am?[H]

Mike Childs

Most of us would always like more resources that reflect our own point of view.

Given that I started all but one of the threads on fgh's list and that I put St. Vladimir's and Logos in touch with each other, am I a closet Orthodox ... so deep in the closet that even I don't know I am?

MJ, I cannot imagine you a "closet" anything. I do imagine you as a person who loves God and Christ, and who is wonderfully honest and transparent. Thanks for your good and sometimes witty contributions to the forums.

David Kirk Davis

MJ, thanks for the recommendation. I have been reading him on the web the last few days. Great writer. I especially liked the sermon he gave on utopia and escapism found on his page.

Luigi sam

to save you the effort in worrying about TULIP.

romans 8 & 9 should be read in perspective of Christian salvation vs Jewish 'law' forgiveness.

I realize this is a fast summary. but the point is that extreme Calvinist summaries such as TULIP didn't really think through the context of various verses.

The best starting point I can give is that: romans 8 & 9 refer to Christian salvation in contrast to Jewish 'law focussed' forgiveness. This conclusion can be gained by understanding that the purpose of Romans has a large focus on Christian salvation in conrast to Jewish law based forgiveness.

you can find this out manually by counting the number of "Christ" and "Jesus" based verses and comparing to the "Jew" & "law" based verses __Surrounding___ Romans 8 & 9.

Thanks for your time.

Tex.P

Luigi sam

p.s And this is stuff that most ppl have overlooked in published commentaries!

Has Anyone else come to this understanding before reading my post? (im interested because i've not read anything [ZERO] concerning a person with significant insight in published commentaries)

or references?

kind thanks. (sorry for slight boastfullness in my helpfullness but it's one of those days im happy to help & being slightly cheeky in realizing that almost no one is willing to publish a contextual insight into this subject

Tex.

Alan Charles Gielczyk

p.s And this is stuff that most ppl have overlooked in published commentaries!

Has Anyone else come to this understanding before reading my post? (im interested because i've not read anything [ZERO] concerning a person with significant insight in published commentaries)

or references?

kind thanks. (sorry for slight boastfullness in my helpfullness but it's one of those days im happy to help & being slightly cheeky in realizing that almost no one is willing to publish a contextual insight into this subject

Tex.

One should be careful in thinking one has come to the proper conclusion of a text that everyone else, in all times, everywhere has missed. It might be that ones conclusion may be faulty, not everyone else's.

One should be careful in thinking one has come to the proper conclusion of a text that everyone else, in all times, everywhere has missed. It might be that ones conclusion may be faulty, not everyone else's.

[Y]

Ted Hans

One should be careful in thinking one has come to the proper conclusion of a text that everyone else, in all times, everywhere has missed. It might be that ones conclusion may be faulty, not everyone else's.

[Y]

Brent Hoefling

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

As a Catholic, I'm a longways from TULIP. It all depends on what you call "balanced". Logos, like any company, gives preferential treatment to products that sell well. However, they do make an effort, especially through partnerships, to cover the broader Judeo-Christian market. With some of the user-driven selection of works to go into production, one doesn't need a large number of people to get resources for other theological schools - only enough to meet production costs. In addition users can create and share resources (in L3 but coming soon in L4) to add specialty resources.

Given the number of Messianic Jews on the forums, I think you are safe in assuming that there is enough benefit for you to risk the investment.

please don't take this negatively. my comment - "like" (for lack of a better, FB-style process)

Luigi sam

As a Catholic, I'm a longways from TULIP

No surprise here, seeing you dont believe salvation is by grace alone.

Brent Hoefling

As a Catholic, I'm a longways from TULIP

No surprise here, seeing you dont believe salvation is by grace alone.

please check your quote tags. I did not say that.

You may also want to ask and check before you make assumptions about any doctrinal stand someone might have - especially if you are basing your assumption with a broad-brush-stroke in pigeon-holing someone's personal beliefs. mi-dos centavos.

As a Catholic, I'm a longways from TULIP

No surprise here, seeing you dont believe salvation is by grace alone.

You erroneously attributed my comment to Brent. I hope he doesn't mind.

And you're right, I hedge my bets a bit more: I believe salvation is by God alone ... in fact, I believe I exist by God alone. I'm more a
Lex orandi, lex credendi kind of girl than a works vs. grace kind of girl.

Sean McIntyre

I have been thoroughly enjoying the Logos program and resources. Little by little, I have been noticing the slant of the program is toward the Reformed-Calvinist theological postion. Is this true?

I am a spirit filled Jewish believer in my Messiah and have recently redicated myself to ardent study.

While I am interest in all areas of theological and biblical studies, I have no intention at the age of 60 in becoming a Calvinist.

Does Logos offer a balanced theological menu or is the balance weighed heavily in the TULIP direction?

I am of the Arminian persuassion but I do suspect that the slant is due more to availabilty of material. Calvinism and Arminianism are not so far apart that a commentary written by a Calvinist has no value to an Arminian. I am eagerly awaiting the completion of the Spurgeon collection. We ought to have a variety of viewpoints reflected in our library.

I did notice an interesting product page which I posted here: [View:http://community.logos.com/forums/t/52070.aspx:550:0]

(‾◡◝)

I'll bet that if I independently quizzed each of the posters in this thread as to their definition of 'Calvinist', I would get widely divergent responses. And, without a mutually agreed upon definition of terms, discussions such as this are totally pointless.

Sean McIntyre

discussions such as this are totally pointless.

And yet here you are

Seriously! Why is there so much Bible stuff on this site?[:P]