Basic Library Marker Resource, what is it?

Hamilton Ramos

Hi Catholic power users:

I have a higher version of Verbum, but I noticed that Verbum 8 Basic has a live "add to car" button.

When I went to the page of "Verbum 8 Basic", it seems to indicate I am missing:

"Basic Library Marker Resource."

I have no clue what is it about, and the upgrade is free for me.

Do I need it?, Does anyone know what it is for?

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

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Comments

PetahChristian

I have a higher version of Verbum, but I noticed that Verbum 8 Basic has a live "add to car" button.

Verbum (and Logos) Basic are (re)purchasable, even if we already own their contents.

"Basic Library Marker Resource."

It shouldn't be visible. It's not an actual resource, but a way for FL to apparently keep track of what we own.

They've shown up in the past in certain packages, and were quickly "removed."

Craig St. Clair (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062288#Comment_1062288

Thanks for the question Hamilton Ramos and for the response PetahChristian.

It is correct that the Marker Resources aren't supposed to be displayed. I've fixed that.

The Marker Resources are more for our users to engage accurately with with logos.com or verbum.com, so the website knows when you own and what you don't when you need to purchase or install again. It's less for us to keep track of what you own.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062298#Comment_1062298

Thanks for the correction, Craig. For the website to know what we own, comes across much better.

I'm not sure what the intent is with respect to Basic (which are temporary, not permanent licenses). I just purchased the package again to ensure that the (new?) marker was associated with my account, but it's still purchasable.

By the way, the marker in the Logos Basic package needs to be hidden.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062288#Comment_1062288

Ok, thanks PetaChristian and Craig for the clarification.

A little off topic: Do you know of any good resource that describes varied curriculum in different areas?

E.g. Biblical studies, systematic / Biblical theology, Church history and Patristics, Moral theology / Christian ethics, Ministry / outreach, etc.

How do professors go about knowing what is important to know in an area? is there a resource that clarifies that?

Thanks ahead of time for the input.

Donald Antenen (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062335#Comment_1062335

Ok, thanks PetaChristian and Craig for the clarification.

A little off topic: Do you know of any good resource that describes varied curriculum in different areas?

E.g. Biblical studies, systematic / Biblical theology, Church history and Patristics, Moral theology / Christian ethics, Ministry / outreach, etc.

How do professors go about knowing what is important to know in an area? is there a resource that clarifies that?

Thanks ahead of time for the input.

Hamilton, I recommend spending time in bibliographies. Pick a resource that you respect in one of the subjects you mention, and look at the bibliography for a map of what resources are important to the author.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062379#Comment_1062379

Thank you Donald for the tip.

Many years ago there was a tv program made in Argentina called "Creencias" (something like "Beliefs").

In the program, a topic was chosen, and Jewish, Catholic, Hinduism, Islam, secular and other experts were invited to discuss the topic from the different perspectives.

Most of the time, the Catholic theologian blew people away with his answers. I was really impressed by how thoroughly the Catholic Priest had studied the subject, and nailed the key issues. I wonder where he studied, but was not able to find out.

I tried to find out with my Catholic lay leader friends about how to be able to study subjects so systematically. Most of the time the answer was the same:

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

I was surprised that even they as lay leaders did not have access to the awesome curriculum / systematic knowledge, even though they are involved in different ministries like youth, marriage, small group, etc.

I hope the situation is not the same in the U.S., as I know that curriculum for lay leaders is very advanced there.

I am surprised that no guidance on how to effectively study systematics, moral theology, etc. is easily found.

Logos is helping making good resources available, But world class curriculum is still lacking.

For a change, I decided to take a look at the Ultimate Collection product page, and look at the different categories there. Then to look at the resources in a particular area, and pick some that seem important to my context and interest. That way I can get some key elements (in my view) on that particular area.

Now with your advice, I will also look at the Bibliography to expand areas of interest, as curriculum does need to be contextualized.

Blessings.

Craig St. Clair (Faithlife)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062408#Comment_1062408

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

Yes, exactly. Systematic Theology is an advanced academic degree studied in a Catholic university. Even if one were to read "all of the books" one doesn't necessarily have the necessary understanding of those subjects without proper guidance.

But you, as a layperson, have other options.

Why not just use the Catechism as your guide? In Verbum, that Catechism is already connected to Church-approved resources in your library.

The apologetics resources from places like Catholic Answers and Ignatius Press are also good guides to get the answers you want.

Additionally, Fr. Luke Dysinger, a professor at St. John's Seminary in Los Angeles and a Benedictine monk at St. Andrews Abbey outside of LA, has a great website with a lot of his seminary course information. It's here: http://www.ldysinger.com/

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062552#Comment_1062552

Craig: thank you for a very constructive answer.

See I have high regard for true Catholics (devoted to God and Jesus Christ above all). The problem is that even if I am not a protestant, I do believe in the priesthood of all believers.

The gifts of the Spirit were given by Him to whoever He wanted, not to just some.

We are to teach people to obey what Christ has commanded and to help facilitate having them be Christlike.

If through God one has been able to have a useful understanding (very contextual by the way) of God's reality and the study of it, I understand from the Bible that we are to put the light high so the whole place is lit and darkness dispersed.

There are true sheep out there that God wants to be cognizant of the truth. And I would not be surprised if there are more outside than in secluded seminaries.

To me is not understandable that persons charged with the teaching of things of God, at times seem to make it difficult.

Faithlife in my view is doing a superb job, facilitating the availability of a huge library.

In my view now they only need to make a resource that touches upon the different curriculums and syllabi for different tracks, and for different traditions and / or denominations.

We are living more and more in an intercultural situation, and any person with a basic teaching background, knows that there is always the explicit, the implicit, and the ignored knowledge.

Many times some traditions are very good at something, they explicitly teach it, and at the same time are very ignorant of other areas relevant to the ministry.

Lay persons have a God given right to browse and study the full spectrum of traditions, and theological systems, so they are aware of the key points different views bring to the conversation. Such study is an undelegable responsibility of each individual believer, as salvation is individual, and we are expected to inquire about such important subject.

In theory one should at the very basic level do some research, as we may be getting theological constructs incompatible with the revealed truth of Scripture, or with the nature and character of God.

Denying the sheep the tools and information needed to do a rational inquiry to see if "things are so" is unethical and do not jibe with the Bible or the intent of God as transmitted by Jesus.

All of the above is of course an opinion from a non-expert sheep, that truly thinks that we were given rationality to inquire into things of God for salvation, for edification, and for helping with the Kingdom work, regardless of our status with respect of human made institutions.

Bonhoeffer seems to have thought that face to face instruction was needed for effective religious education. Then some modern thinkers think that platforms like Logos Bible software are useful to try to spread the Word and facilitate ministry work, is there a third option? is there a middle ground?

Change to have more technical support but within a local church setting would seem to fit the times, yet few sheep are encouraged to think about it and get involved:

https://faithlife.com/lexham-survey-of-theology/activity

http://www.cc-amesdsm.org/download/paradigmPapers/1_Creating%20a%20New%20Paradigm.pdf

https://faithlife.com/7506257/topics/7613?groupId=7506257&offset=0#latest

Like someone said before: Are we going to be part of the solution? are we going to get involved?

Pentecostals seem to be taking the lead:

https://faithlife.com/bible-engagement-project/activity

Resources plus curriculum, plus local church... seems like a winning combination.

Thanks for the input and the link. Peace and grace.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062552#Comment_1062552

In their view, one had to become a Priest, and particularly a theologian to be able to do such studies.

Yes, exactly. Systematic Theology is an advanced academic degree studied in a Catholic university. Even if one were to read "all of the books" one doesn't necessarily have the necessary understanding of those subjects without proper guidance.

Hate to break it to you two but there are Catholic theologians who are (a) female and hence not priests and (b) lay persons. Aptitude, interest, education, and effort are required. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_philosophers_and_theologians

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062605#Comment_1062605

Hi MJ:

Totally agree with the facts you presented. I do think that anyone can become a theologian (even if amateur), and contrary to my Catholic lay leader friends (not sure where they got the info), females can also study. [they may not be ordained as Priest, but not sure if they can serve as Chaplains).

And my original question stands: can Logos Bible software help persons in their quest to become a(n) [amateur] theologian?

If so, why isn't someone making a detailed curriculum (together with the individual syllabus), to aid in the process?

To my understanding the world will eventually be filled of the Glory of God, and many if not all will know about God. Hopefully that time is arriving soon.

I did look at the At seminary curriculum you posted elsewhere. I could not find the details of the courses. I did find a Thomas Aquinas college (seems to be different), and they focus more on liberal arts education, and use a wide array of secular books.

Secular books are to me like auxiliary ones, but I would like to see some of the fine resources in L8 as the primary texts in courses.

John Kelly and Paul Costa in their book "End Time Warriors" made an analogy to US Special Forces. That got me thinking:

US Special Forces (Green Berets), do have working knowledge on weapons, demolitions, engineering (combat), medical, intelligence, etc.

They are not experts like an engineer in the Corps of Engineers would be, but know enough to get the job done in a mission.

Same for medical knowledge, not a MD, but more of an advanced paramedic, that can save lives in real life.

So in the "priesthood of all believers" something similar can be paralleled:

Leaders that while not experts in original languages the way an academician is, can have sufficient knowledge to get to propositional truth, etc.

While not a fully systematic theologian, can take into consideration the whole counsel of God, and see the Diachronic relations and the intertextuality of concepts.

While not a fully fledged counsellor, can detect when a case is solvable, and when needs further referral.

While not a civic action expert, can organize and support community to achieve worthy goals (chosen by the community itself), while at the same time evangelizing.

While not a Liturgical / worship expert, can plant and help with healthy growth of a congregation.

While not an enthusiast, enough knowledge, experience with God and anointment, to wage basic spiritual warfare with spiritual forces of evil when needed...

And so on, so forth.

Peace and grace.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062621#Comment_1062621

And my original question stands: can Logos Bible software help persons in their quest to become a(n) [amateur] theologian?

While Logos can certainly help a seminarian, their seminary already provides the curriculum and syllabi.

Studying with Logos alone won't be equivalent to an advanced degree program.

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062629#Comment_1062629

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

We are not all called to be formally qualified and recognised theologians but we are all called to open our heart, mind and sole to reflect upon, speak of, talk about and write down the things of God we discover in the world around us and the scriptures and weigh up the words and writings on same things of those gone before us and those of our time. So yes in a sense we can all consider ourselves theologians without the need to pursue a formal academic degree.

Hamilton in a sense FL has begun what you are suggesting, not just quite in a structured, organised, directed, formalised, methodic approach as you might desire, They have done so through mobile Ed courses. There are of course many areas not yet covered but hopefully will one day have appropriate courses offered. Part of the difficulty in trying to build a one size fits all study program through Logos is many are fixed in their traditions and beliefs. Mobile Ed courses won’t make us formally trained theologians but are stepping stones to dig deeper into topics through our libraries and the scriptures so that we might be better informed amateur theologians or at least bringing us closer to being so.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062629#Comment_1062629

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Since this is the Catholic Products forum, I will give the Catholic answer: No.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062629#Comment_1062629

PetaChristian:

A degree is one thing, actually achieving the goals of a Christian education is another.

Many men of God were self-learners, and lo and behold Apostles (like no one in the modern world) had no studies at all and they all put us all to shame.

Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia had a curriculum module, you could browse the different curriculums available and they would indicate what articles from the encyclopedia to go to. It even had an area where you could gather the info including websites visited.

If secular systems can help humanity learn a bit, should not a Christ following one?

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom, it is like if secular systems have more hope for humanity than religious institutions themselves (how un Jesus like).

Amateur theologian? Can a person consider themselves a theologian without (pursuing) a theological degree?

Again, there have been men and women of God that could put us all to shame and never visited a seminary, college, etc. think about it.

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

Small minds, equals very restrictive paradigms. God has the hugest mind, and He does not restrict us, but encourages us to learn more.

Kind Regards.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062648#Comment_1062648

Disciple II:

Hear you loud and clear and totally agree.

Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia just listed the different curriculums available, and one was free to choose what to choose or even combine.

Likewise, I am beginning to copy paste per area info from the highest Logos 8 packages in different traditions, and even Ultimate. Then I will make a list of the best looking resources and the topics that appear per area and per tradition, so that I can make my own curriculum.

One can get an idea by visiting Seminary webpages on how they put together the curriculum, and the way they go about doing particular classes in the syllabus.

What I prefer is that the resources chosen are in Logos 8, as that would facilitate making a collection, searching, etc.

If you look at a given area for all the different higher packages per tradition, you will come with gem resources for the area. once you have identified 5 or 6, you can start exploring.

When one takes a closer look at the packages Logos has created, then one is really appreciative of the effort and quality of the work done to make such packages available. Incredible labor, very commendable, and becoming of the highest standards of Christlike work of love and service.

One can also take a closer look to certain bundles:

https://www.logos.com/product/32816/zondervan-textbook-bundle

Themes, topics, and the like may be easy for those with formal training under their belt. For the not so fortunate, have to depend on what we can discern and receive from the unselfish guidance that people at Logos provide.

I really like Logos, even if I am just a plain sheep, and amateur theologian. It is a true blessing for those of us that cannot do formal training for varied reasons.

I hope God uses Logos to help fill the Earth with the knowledge of our creator and Savior.

Peace and grace.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062743#Comment_1062743

With all due respect SineNomine:

tell that to Peter, John, James, Jesus, Stephen the deacon, etc.

The Holy Spirit bestows gifts as He wants and to who He wants. Was St. Francis a theologian by training? or was the power of the Holy Spirit moving in his life?

Kind regards.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062769#Comment_1062769

lo and behold Apostles (like no one in the modern world) had no studies at all

They were not completely uneducated.

Luke was a physician. Paul was taught by Gamaliel. Others were probably synagogue-trained.

The disciples (meaning students, learners, followers) received years of education from their Master and Teacher.

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

While there is no written account of this, do you think that His Jewish education stopped at 18? I imagine that He could quote and teach the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, because He (being fully human as well as fully divine) learned from other teachers, as we do.

The local church’s job is not to educate theologians. Other theologians teach them.

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.

We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Those people who teach us likely attended a seminary or bible college. They didn’t learn theology or exposition or original languages on their own.

Not dismissing Godly people who never went to seminary. But the flip side is that we shouldn’t dismiss the value of a seminary education.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062778#Comment_1062778

If we take some of the Scripture literally, then in order to be Jesus like, all we need is home training and local church, because He never went to college.

While there is no written account of this, do you think that His Jewish education stopped at 18? I imagine that He could quote and teach the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings, because He (being fully human as well as fully divine) learned from other teachers, as we do.

The local church’s job is not to educate theologians. Other theologians teach them.

But is it part of the local churches role to equip it’s Christian members to be ready to serve, whether it be ministry within the church or outside the church with unbelievers. Peter calls us to be ready to give an answer for our faith. For some laity in the church this might look like basic theological and apologetic training provided by the local Church.

That mentality that sheep cannot learn on their own is part of the problem with people leaving Christendom

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.

We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Do you truly believe what you just said ? That we can not learn on our own? If you do then what are you doing using Logos Bible Software and mobile Ed courses? Since you can not learn on your own what is the point? Are you saying that the fire within some lay people to learn and understand more deeply of theological topics and issues than can be done via the Sunday sermon / homily can not be of the Holy Spirit’s leading and is in fact wrong because they are wanting understanding beyond their station in life?

Yes we all need guidance from the formally called and recognised leaders within the church, but to sit back and say we shouldn’t make an effort to educate ourselves, to say we can not learn on our own then how does that fit in with the fact that we are all God’s image bearers ? Humanity does not have an issue with sef-learning as much as we do have a sin issue. An in order to become more Christ like, to become more like the image bearer that God intended us to be self-learning is a part of what each of us here on the forums are doing when we study the scriptures using Logos Bible Software. And I believe this is what Hamilton is trying to get at rather than suggesting we do not need those who are called to be Theologians or that the Church should be training such people. If you have read questions and posts Hamilton has written in the past what comes through strongly is he has a real desire, real passion to be honour God, to be all that God intended him to be, to follow his Word and to encourage and help others to do so and is always looking for ways to do these things bette in order to become more Christ-like,

Ultimately all our self learning efforts should be done under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Even those who are called to lead us in the church need this guidance for they struggle as much as the laity with the sin issue.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062792#Comment_1062792

There is a reason that the Orthodox (mentor) and the Catholics (spiritual friendship or spiritual director) insist that learning be a communal act ... at least in the sense of having someone further along the path than you, listen, correct, and keep you honest. Furthermore, there is a reason the Jewish and Medieval Traditions have a tradition of "student partner"/"debate opponent" to keep one sharp in one's facts and logic. The same observation could be made of the Buddhists. Remember "pride cometh before the fall" (Proverbs 16:18 ... to be sure the topic is Logos). Better to have others call you a theologian than to assume the title for yourself to your own ruin.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062792#Comment_1062792

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.
We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Do you truly believe what you just said ? That we can not learn on our own?

What I wrote was apparently ambiguous. Sorry. That’s not what I meant.

Of course we can learn on our own, but we would miss out on the richer experience of hearing and discussing other insights, perspectives, questions, etc.

For example, I started learning Hebrew on my own, but also attend a Hebrew class at synagogue. I learn much more from questions and discussions that come up during the class, and insights and explanations that the Rabbi provides.

Would I have learned as much simply on my own? No, I’d have missed out on what the classroom setting offers.

I appreciate Logos and love the opportunity that Mobile Ed provides (because I wouldn’t be going to seminary so late in life), but I don’t consider self-study a replacement for or equivalent to a seminary education.

Thanks to all who did attend, who have used their formal education in so many different ways to help others.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062795#Comment_1062795

Interesting discussions. And Yes, we get further along with a guide. [Mentor / Spiritual adviser]

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062778#Comment_1062778

PetaChristian:

For the first two comments you make: my pont indeed. We should explore ways to allow greater acquaintance with theological subjects. Maybe at home with the help of Logos, or in the Local Church (small groups, lay leader training, etc).

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.

There is a difference between shepherding, and indoctrinating into wrong doctrine.

Want an example of good watch overs:

Noble Synagogue Bereans: they took a proposed theological construct (Paul's) and searched the Scriptures to see if things were so. {note that the leaders did not reject the proposed constructs just because "it was not developed / invented here".

How can a sheep develop enough critical thinking that can tell when someone is trying to brain wash them vs. really empowering to find the truth for themselves?

To me Faithlife through Logos seem to be wanting to foster sheep's individual exploration to see if things are so.

Most experiences I have had with groups / traditions, lean more into authoritarian imposition of beliefs, that unfortunately most of the time do no jibe with the thrusts of the Bible nor with the Character and nature of God.

Then there are some groups that are solid doctrinally, but then want to rule your life like if they owned you (but did not pay the ultimate price for one's life like Jesus did).

A good watch over person understands that the sheep are not the Church's, nor Pastor's but God's, so we can only empower them to see the light for themselves, as salvation is individual responsibility, and each person will have to give account of what they understood of the Bible, not of what a group or supposed watch over person indoctrinated them in. Luke 10: 25 - 27.

Is it not curious that Jesus did not ask the person: What does Gamaliel think, what is the accepted doctrine of the Pharisees? have you checked the creed of the Saducees? etc.

We now have the doctrine of the Apostles, but if you take a look closely to what it entails, you will see far difference to what is taught now.

Just one example of the difference in focus that a true watch over person should have when teaching:

Church Members Outreach Disciples

Committed to the church Committed to Christ

Managing committees Deploying missions

Holding offices. Doing hands-on ministry
Making decisions Making disciples

Trained for membership On a life-long quest for quality

Serving at the church Serving in the world

Preoccupied with raising money Preoccupied with rescuing people

Doing church work Finding personal fulfillment

Retiring from church work Pursuing constant personal growth

Surveying internal needs Sensitized to community

Eager to know everyone Eager for everyone to know God

Loyal to each other Drawn to the unchurched

Building faith on information Build faith on experience with Christ

Perpetuating a heritage Envisioning a future

Thanks to David Mulder in "Outreach discipleship" for opening my eyes to the above.

Is there a subtle sheep abuse in the system ? consider:

HOW TO EMPOWER OTHERS HOW TO EXPLOIT OTHERS

allow them to function give them functions

believe in them make them believe in you

delegate authority require submission

further God’s plan for them make them part of your plans

invest in them use them

love them, and say so love the task more than the people

give them what you have take what they have to give

discuss with them preach at them

freely spend time with them require appointments

give them the keys now make them wait until you retire

serve them let them serve you

praise them accept their praise of you

transfer masterhood demonstrate masterhood

Simson, W., & Barna, G. (2015). The house church book: rediscover the dynamic, organic, relational, viral community jesus started. Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale.

Critical thinking of things about God (theology) is very important, and mostly at the sheep level, because God wants us to be informed so we can make correct decisions.

Watch over people? yes, but look at the fruit they produce. If they are on the left of the above comparison charts, stay away.

If they are to the right, (like I think Faithlife does), stick with them.

Peta, this is not the place to be talking about this. I do it out of genuine concern for the common sheep (like myself), and I write with the hope people will further research, reflect and constructively comment, not to start polemics.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062797#Comment_1062797

What I wrote was apparently ambiguous. Sorry. That’s not what I meant.

Of course we can learn on our own, but we would miss out on the richer experience of hearing and discussing other insights, perspectives, questions, etc.

For example, I started learning Hebrew on my own, but also attend a Hebrew class at synagogue. I learn much more from questions and discussions that come up during the class, and insights and explanations that the Rabbi provides.

Would I have learned as much simply on my own? No, I’d have missed out on what the classroom setting offers.

I appreciate Logos and love the opportunity that Mobile Ed provides (because I wouldn’t be going to seminary so late in life), but I don’t consider self-study a replacement for or equivalent to a seminary education.

Thanks to all who did attend, who have used their formal education in so many different ways to help others.

Totally agree with this, but some are not so fortunate to have the chance to be allowed to study with certain groups / persons, unless you are considered a bird of a feather.

Closest I can get? Logos Bible software with all the different packages into different denominations and traditions.

You see I firmly believe into checking all and retaining what is good, I find that all traditions represented in Logos have something good to add to some conversations.

The parts that I perceive as not jibing with the Bible or with God's nature and character I dismiss or study further to see where it could have come from.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062811#Comment_1062811

Interesting discussions. And Yes, we get further along with a guide. [Mentor / Spiritual adviser]

Yes, but the right kind of mentor / spiritual advisor.

There comes a point when persons flee from perceived indoctrinators. We are in the 21st century, people want to be empowered to be able to decide and act for themselves.

It seems that the command was to make all believers (not just a few seminarians) into the image of the firstborn Jesus Christ, and that seems something that some groups seem to not grasp.

Do I admire the theology, research, language abilities of posters here? of course, they are like role models.

Do I approve of authoritarian, indoctrinating type input that does not jibe with the thrusts of the Bible or the Character and nature of God? no way. I prefer to fly solo than to submit to persons that are on the left in the contrast lists in a previous post.

No human is perfect, but those that are humble enough to change and accept when mistaken, specially when the heart of the matter is presented to them, are the ones I can see as good mentors, watch overs, etc.

We are all under particular contextual understanding of God and His reality, the only fully Orthodox Being in the Universe is God. So we should proceed humbly, kindly cooperating in the elucidation of Truth, and thanking the fellow pilgrims helping us in the way to such.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062792#Comment_1062792

Disciple II:

Agree with what you say, we are in similar wavelengths. Thanks for your kind words.

So that there is no misunderstanding, at the beginning I mentioned that a Catholic Theologian in a Argentinina tv series was superb at getting to the heart of the matter in particular topics, and very well explained why they had reach such conclusions.

Verbum has amazing resources: Catholic topical index, CCC, moral theology resources, etc.

I am just suggesting that such fine minds that put such together, could also do a superb resource with curriculums, and syllabi, that can be used to enrich Christianity in general.

Thomas Aquinas seminary and college has magnificent curriculums, only that some of the resources found in Logos that are also good regardless of what tradition they were produced, are not included.

The enemy is not the different traditions / denominations, but the devil that wants common Christians to be ignorant of important principles, and precepts for good life.

Peace and grace.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062795#Comment_1062795

Totally agree MJ that theology is to be in community, and I don’t intend that self-learning be otherwise. And I don’t think what is being spoken of in this conversation is about running around with a puffed up chest saying “I am a Theologian”. If one is doing this then one has not been impacted at all by their studies and is merely accumulating knowledge for knowledge‘s sake. These are points that add great value to the conversation so appreciate you raising them.

This conversation is not about disrespecting or degrading the role or place of formally trained and recognised theologians but about answering can / are we all be theologians in some sense of the word. I respect some people’s faith traditions will not enable them to answer in an affirmative way and others will be able to do so with cautions attached.

There is a reason that the Orthodox (mentor) and the Catholics (spiritual friendship or spiritual director) insist that learning be a communal act ... at least in the sense of having someone further along the path than you, listen, correct, and keep you honest. Furthermore, there is a reason the Jewish and Medieval Traditions have a tradition of "student partner"/"debate opponent" to keep one sharp in one's facts and logic. The same observation could be made of the Buddhists. Remember "pride cometh before the fall" (Proverbs 16:18 ... to be sure the topic is Logos). Better to have others call you a theologian than to assume the title for yourself to your own ruin.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062797#Comment_1062797

If sheep could merely learn on their own, they wouldn’t need a shepherd to watch over them.
We don’t simply learn on our own. We sit under more knowledgeable people, be it priests, pastors, professors, and learn from their teaching, knowledge, and experience.

Do you truly believe what you just said ? That we can not learn on our own?

What I wrote was apparently ambiguous. Sorry. That’s not what I meant.

Of course we can learn on our own, but we would miss out on the richer experience of hearing and discussing other insights, perspectives, questions, etc.

Would I have learned as much simply on my own? No, I’d have missed out on what the classroom setting offers.

Thanks to all who did attend, who have used their formal education in so many different ways to help others.

It is always great if we can attend a class, but those don’t make us theologians in the formal sense of the word. i have studied a number of classes through bible colleges to add to my independent learning. But for those of us not called to be formal Theologians , most of us at least, can not possibly attend all of the classes we would need to do so due to time, money and availability of classes. That does not mean we should stop our learning efforts and sell our Logos libraries to formal theologians. I don’t know if I will ever get to attend in person a Greek or Hebrew course but I have a vast wealth of material available to me that I can educate myself about the basics of these languages in order that I am better able to engage with commentaries and theilogical articles in area of interest that I am drawn to study. What I do learn about the languages and other theological topics only serves to keep me honest and remind me there is so much more for me to learn not only about the topic, but about myself, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, particularly those of a different fairh tradition to mine, but also those within, and so much more to learn about God.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1062840#Comment_1062840

It is always great if we can attend a class, but those don’t make us theologians in the formal sense of the word. i have studied a number of classes through bible colleges to add to my independent learning. But for those of us not called to be formal Theologians , most of us at least, can not possibly attend all of the classes we would need to do so due to time, money and availability of classes. That does not mean we should stop our learning efforts and sell our Logos libraries to formal theologians. I don’t know if I will ever get to attend in person a Greek or Hebrew course but I have a vast wealth of material available to me that I can educate myself about the basics of these languages in order that I am better able to engage with commentaries and theilogical articles in area of interest that I am drawn to study. What I do learn about the languages and other theological topics only serves to keep me honest and remind me there is so much more for me to learn not only about the topic, but about myself, my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, particularly those of a different fairh tradition to mine, but also those within, and so much more to learn about God.

Even though the above not written for me, I agree, like, cherish, etc.

Maybe if some of the books in Faithlife were deliverable to my region, I would not need to bother people in the forums:

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/167480/the-bible-and-the-university

Peace and grace.