Pentecostal and Charismatic Should be Seperated
Comments
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Kendall Sholtess said:
That looks like a good book, Graham. Sadly, it doesn't look like it's sold.
It's been out of print for a while, it does turn up from time to time when bookshops do a stock check. I managed to replace the copy that I loaned to someone who later claimed it was theirs and was not sure how my name got written inside in my handwriting!
Kendall Sholtess said:I have 4,800 electronic books of many denominations
My library also covers many denominations, I even have and read John MacArthur who would definitely be off limits for many of my pentecostal colleagues. For me the combining of Pentecostal and Charismatic into a single collections does two things:
- it masks the limited availability of classical pentecostal works in Logos something that I don't think is Logos' fault but ironically is unlikely to change while the two are included in a single collection as this grouping will influence the way that pentecostal publishers perceive Logos
- it shows a lack of understanding of some very clear differences in beliefs, practices and origins, it is true that the pentecostal attraction to celebrity has led many to embrace some of the Charismatic teachers and it is definitely ironic that in a period when we encourage our own to publish more substantive academic and theologically grounded books many are indeed drawn to the less substantial Charismatic authors
From a personal perspective, I'm happy that Logos now has enough good quality Pentecostal resources to enable me not to buy real books, I do wish there was more, Stephen Jack Land for example, but on a day to day basis thinks are so much better than say 10 years ago.
Agree on the dogmatism btw, for me dogmatists insist on sitting on opposite sides of the table and in my experience the best conversations occur when we sit on the same side of the table, no matter how hard that might seem at the beginning.
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You're right Graham. I have strong opinions about doctrine. But a dogmatist would refuse to hear other sides. That's what I meant and I think that's what you mean as well.
I just wish that a package could be assembled which would be convenient for pastors and other ministers in Pentecostal denominations, in which they wouldn't have to spend $20,000 to build a decent library.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
Hopefully Faithlife will be aware of these major differences and consider doing something about them.
My assumption is that they are aware. They often employ people from a variety of traditions (Reformed, Catholic, Orthodox, etc) and those people are often integral to base package creation. As MJ notes above, a lot of the mixing of resources has to do with market and upgradeability of packages. I had a couple ideas and thoughts in my head as I read the thread:
1. Perhaps within P&C packages, they could create subcategories like they already do when they will distinguish "NT Studies" vs "OT Studies" or "19th Century Theology" from "20th Century Theology. Accordingly they might distinguish "Pentecostal" from "Charismatic" or "1st Wave" from "3rd Wave." My guess is, however, that in some cases there would be resources that are gray areas. But this would be one way to delineate the two. Delineating the two would also have a built in accountability to assess how much balance of the movements Logos is bringing to the BP: are they only offering 3 Pentecostal works while offering 23 Charismatic ones? (por ejemplo) As a non P or C person, I would be helped by that delineation.
2. Be careful about assumptions that other base packages really reflect denominational unity. I'd imagine Lutherans from the Wisconsin Synod would take exception to Lutheran works from the ELCA. On the one hand, they have a common tradition/roots, on the other hand, a wide-divergance. Even Catholic packages likely don't reflect the wide divergance of thought as say, between the Benedictines and the Jesuits, etc. When you're an outsider, it's all the same ("motor oil is motor oil" ...referencing an old commercial). but to insiders: WHOA BABY, WE'RE NOTHING ALIKE!!!"
3. I think it was Graham Owen who said many Pentecostals do not get into Logos and stick with their Pentecostal publishing arms. I assume that means they are hardcopies and not really digitalized (except perhaps some ebooks?). If true, I imagine that is partly due to the lack of offering of Pentecostal material within Logos (and is that related to difficulty in getting contracts with those publishers or more about perceived market). But I wonder if it is also partly due to their own preferred work and study methods: 1) are they open to electronic study on a mass scale 2) do their study habits differ from methods at which Logos shines?
4. Interestingly, I come from the "Restoration" movement that Denise seems to reference above (if I understood your reference to be to what is also referred to by outsiders as "Campbellites"). Not nearly as large as P or C or other denominations, but at least at one time was the largest indigenously generated movement/denomination in the US. We have no base package. We likely are as close to the Baptists as any, but I own by far fewer Baptist base packages. I own more Verbum, Anglican, and P&C than I do Baptist. (we also have roots with the Presbyterians and Methodists). I wish we had more resources directly from our roots (early documents, etc). I wish some of the commentaries that are distinctively ours were more affordably placed within base packages. And, frankly, I don't care for some chunks of our published stuff and would not buy it if it WAS in Logos...unless part of the fluff that makes up packages.
5. As a non P or C person, and from a tradition that, generally speaking, is a more cognitively-based tradition that shuns the more "charismatic" faith and practice traditions (ie, cessationists), I love getting resources, no-matter their P or C origins, that explore the more active working of the HS that my tradition generally has either ignored or even abhorred. At this point, I'd likely not more open to purchasing a basepackage that offered a smattering of those traditions than I would be interested in getting into the minutiae. For instance, I own several Anglican BP's, but am not excited the more they offer things about the organization and polity. I prefer accessing works that reveal their theology, whether monographs, dictionaries or commentaries.
I am curios: how might a typical, non-Logos using pastor rank the following reasons for not owning Logos:
-original language and in depth study using language and concordance-style tools is a foreign enterprise
-not enough Pentecostal works to make it worthwhile
-an aversion to owning anything Charismatic
-not having a healthy book budget
I realize this will only be by anecdotal or gut perceptions.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
You're right Graham. I have strong opinions about doctrine. But a dogmatist would refuse to hear other sides. That's what I meant and I think that's what you mean as well.
Exactly...
Kendall Sholtess said:I just wish that a package could be assembled which would be convenient for pastors and other ministers in Pentecostal denominations, in which they wouldn't have to spend $20,000 to build a decent library.
I think this can be done but you need to know about the origins and influences that shaped the movement as it emerged and those that have shaped it subsequently. That said I have spent a bit more than that on my library.
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Friedrich said:
Be careful about assumptions that other base packages really reflect denominational unity.
I am very aware that there is diversity within other denominations and that packages are really more of a commercial construct to bring enough resources together to drive down the unit price.
Friedrich said:I think it was Graham Owen who said many Pentecostals do not get into Logos and stick with their Pentecostal publishing arms
It was me and some years ago I remember that Logos were contacting the major publishing houses to negotiate access to content. Based on what is available in Logos today it is safe to assume that this was not a success. In my experience, many Pentecostals are conservative (small c) and like to stay with the safe option which would be in house.
Friedrich said:And, frankly, I don't care for some chunks of our published stuff and would not buy it if it WAS in Logos...unless part of the fluff that makes up packages.
That would be true for Pentecostal publications as well (for me at least).
Friedrich said:I am curios: how might a typical, non-Logos using pastor rank the following reasons for not owning Logos:
My guess would be - not enough Pentecostal - budget - original language - aversion to Charismatic
Note that budget is an interesting one as whilst Logos talk a lot about this in my experience few ministers of any denomination make investing in study materials a priority. Many that I know depend on the materials they used in training and invest very little. Some probably spend more on praise and worship CDs than they do on books.
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Graham Owen said:
Note that budget is an interesting one as whilst Logos talk a lot about this in my experience few ministers of any denomination make investing in study materials a priority. Many that I know depend on the materials they used in training and invest very little. Some probably spend more on praise and worship CDs than they do on books.
Yeah, in my neck of the woods there is that tension between scholarly and practical. Not that they have to be antithetical in and of themselves. But often lived out that way.
peace and thanks for adding to the interesting dialogue on this thread. (and to the OP)
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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I just want to say that the difference between Charismatics and Traditional (Classic) Pentecostals is often greater than between Wisconsin and Missouri synod Lutherans. So I am not sure that is a valid comparison.
A Charismatic can hold to the Westminster Confession or the Book of Concord, as well as the Roman Catholic Catechism.
Pentecostal is a distinctive theology, which was built upon the Reformation in some ways and came through Wesleyanism and the Holiness movements. Most traditional Pentecostals also have a strong dispensational influence.
It is unlikely that a Pentecostal could hold to the Westminster Confession, because Classic Pentecostalism is Arminian (Wesleyan style) in orientation.
So the base package would be more limited in scope than a Charismatic base package, which would theoretically have almost anything in it.
A Pentecostal base package should be similar to the Anglican and Wesleyan packages (Wesley's Works, Adam Clarke), with a commentary set like the NAC and an application commentary, classic devotional books, classic theology books, some dispensational theology books (Henry Thiessen etc.), some pivotal Reformation books (Martin Luther's Galatians commentary), and others. It might be good for Pentecostals to make a list.
I think a package could be made accessible, say at the Bronze level, which would be both affordable and a great attraction for Pentecostal laypersons and leaders worldwide. Many things could be added to higher levels, generalizing more as packages go up, but staying fairly close to classic works and what might be found from Pentecostal Publishers and certain Wesleyan works, and not forgetting Jonathan Edwards and such as well.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
I just want to say that the difference between Charismatics and Traditional (Classic) Pentecostals is often greater than between Wisconsin and Missouri synod Lutherans. So I am not sure that is a valid comparison.
You realize that all the Lutherans world-wide share a single package ... even the Apostolic Lutherans.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I hope nothing that I have said will be taken as divisive. I truly have no prejudice against Charismatics. As Faithlife themselves can affirm, my library contains a lot of Charismatic works that I have bought myself. I get a lot out of Charismatic Messianic Rabbi K A Schneider, for instance.
This thread was just meant to bring up a possibility that could be of benefit to Faithlife and Pentecostal pastors and leaders dear to my heart. I am excited to see the church grow, no matter the denomination.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
It is unlikely that a Pentecostal could hold to the Westminster Confession
And yet for me it remains a great resource that personally I will happily reference and engage with where I have drawn a different conclusion.
Kendall Sholtess said:Pentecostalism is Arminian (Wesleyan style)
And of course Wesley emerged from the Anglican tradition where many would agree that some aspects of his theology would have been considered Anglo-Catholic. Ultimately what we learn (I think) is that collections will always have some tension if they want to represent the breadth of the label they are linked to. As a generalisation Charismatics tend to be Calvinistic.
BTW when I upgrade I look at the Methodist packages before looking at the Pentecostal and Charismatic ones.
Kendall Sholtess said:A Pentecostal base package should be...
At a high level, I would agree but I'm not sure that this would sell to a Pentecostal audience and attract more Pentecostal resources. The challenge I see, and this is not just a Pentecostal problem, is that most people want resources that affirm where they are rather than ones that represent the journey and help them understand the choices that got them where they are.
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Friedrich said:
Yeah, in my neck of the woods there is that tension between scholarly and practical.
Too often I see that tension manifest as scholarly versus spiritual as if education somehow presents someone from having spiritual insight.
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Graham Owen said:Friedrich said:
Yeah, in my neck of the woods there is that tension between scholarly and practical.
Too often I see that tension manifest as scholarly versus spiritual as if education somehow presents someone from having spiritual insight.
No, I think you are right, that's definitely another way it is cast. And, like most things, there can be some truth in that. But it's certainly not axiomatic that someone who is not academic is more spiritual. [:D]
I like (to bring this more into line with forum guidelines [:P]) that Logos does a great job in promoting the academic AS a spiritual enterprise...
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Graham Owen said:
BTW when I upgrade I look at the Methodist packages before looking at the Pentecostal and Charismatic ones.
I was hoping for my works by Fee and similar in the PC packages. My guess is it is related to the strong, unbending arm of Baker Books. I also noticed this time around the Priscilla papers were in the MW collection, whereas last time they were PC.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Well, thankfully I have not been able to join an opinion group. I live in a place where I bump elbows with people from 80+ different countries and have had professors from most streams of Christianity. Personally I hold to a Calvinist soteriology. Oops, I revealed my hand. Oh, well. But my suggestion to split them was based on my understanding of the history and development of the groups. I thought that it would be good to promote the splittage because it might make more people happy. But I often underestimate the variety of opinions that there are on these issues. My heart is warmed by the friendship we have here as brothers, sisters and Logos users. We belong to a special club, especially of like us, we have spent upwards of $20,000 on Bible software (facepalm). God bless and have a great day!
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Kendall Sholtess said:
I live in a place where I bump elbows with people from 80+ different countries
that's cool. where?
I grew up in Germany (not native...as mk). That experience taught me more openness and humility when it came to communing outside my heritage's confines. ministering much later, in a school with large Ethiopian/Eritrean pop., then in Miami, and also near Detroit furthered both cultural and religious connections and awareness. Always a maddening, refining and enriching process.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Friedrich said:Kendall Sholtess said:
I live in a place where I bump elbows with people from 80+ different countries
that's cool. where?
I grew up in Germany (not native...as mk). That experience taught me more openness and humility when it came to communing outside my heritage's confines. ministering much later, in a school with large Ethiopian/Eritrean pop., then in Miami, and also near Detroit furthered both cultural and religious connections and awareness. Always a maddening, refining and enriching process.
I have lived in China for 18 years. The church I go to here is very diverse, both ethnically as well as tradition-wise.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
I have lived in China for 18 years.
Whoa! what an experience that has to have been! I've never been to a culture like that.
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
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Kendall Sholtess said:
My heart is warmed by the friendship we have here as brothers, sisters and Logos users.
[Y]
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I'd like to say on this whole subject that the new base packages have more Pentecostal content than before. I also see that Faithlife is making a big effort to serve traditional Pentecostals better. I am very thankful about that!
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These two movements are very similar to each other. They have practically the same ideals and habits of glorifying holiness.
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After reading this entire thread, I too wish the two were separated. I’m a Pentecostal, not a Charismatic. I personally won’t purchase and of the Logos packages for P&C simply because there are too many Charismatic books in the library that I won’t use at all, so purchasing one would be of no use to me. What I do is purchase the Logos Standard packages instead, and add books I want separately that are the Pentecostal based ones I want, that way I avoid the Charismatic books altogether. The only problem with doing it this way is that it gets awfully expensive this way.
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John, agree with you. I have been using Logos since the Libronix days and have stayed with the Standard Packages and add books I want especially form the Pentecostal areas. The offerings are fairly week, unfortunately.
In Christ,
Ken
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