Sharing the good news with Mormons
Comments
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Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination? I did not read anyone make that clear.
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination? I did not read anyone make that clear.
Maybe if we had their current and historic documents in Logos we could make that determination!
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The only source of which I am aware is The Mormon Church and Blacks: A Documentary History edited by Harris and Bringhurst out of the University of Illinois. See JSTOR site at https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/j.ctt17t760w
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks for that David. But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons. Just didn't want to leave any doubt.
iii The Four Major Cults
Hoekema, A. A. (1963). The Four Major Cults: Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventism (p. iii). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
Mormons
Answered
Verse by Verse
Reed, D. A., & Farkas, J. R. (1992). Mormons: Answered verse by verse (electronic ed., pp. 1–3). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.MORMONISM
CHANGES,
CONTRADICTIONS,
AND ERRORS
Farkas, J. R., & Reed, D., A. (1995). Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.How to Answer a Mormon, Torey
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons.
But to emphasize David's point, the books you list (none of which have I read) are books of non-Mormons' apologetics against Mormons rather than descriptions of Mormon beliefs as seen by Mormons. As a Catholic, I can tell you two classes of books you should never trust as sources of Catholic beliefs:
- books written by anti-Catholic apologists
- books written by former Catholics
That is not to say that there are no good books in either category, merely that one must read them for what they are. I would expect the same to be true for other groups.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Well MJ I am Reformed. I found it kind of funny that you compare Catholicism to Mormonism. But Mormonism is not a denomination. I will just leave it their, I just wanted this thread to state that in case someone was reading it and may have been confused.
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
I found it kind of funny that you compare Catholicism to Mormonism.
And I find it funny that you find it funny -- the comparison was on a single attribute, "frequently misrepresented in the forums". I almost added Jehovah's Witnesses, non-trinitarians . . .
Mathew Haferkamp said:but Mormonism is not a denomination.
Nor are Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox as "denomination" is a distinctively Protestant notion. According to the online etymological dictionary, the word is first attested for a religious sect in 1716. More seriously the OED defines "denomination" as "a recognized autonomous branch of a church or religion" - a common (rather than theological) definition that does apply to Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Mormons. I suspect you mean to say "Mormonism is not a Christian denomination" ... but given the range of definitions of the minimal requirement for the term "Christian", I wouldn't touch that with a five-thousand-foot pole. I am steeped in thinking in terms of groups having fuller understanding of the truth than other groups.
Note for the theological use:
denomination, denominationalism. An organizational structure of several congregations who unite together on the basis of common doctrinal, organizational, ethnic, geographical or practical considerations even while meeting in separate localized situations. Denominationalism as a theory understands the church as consisting of a diversity of practices and beliefs under the umbrella of the larger term Christian while at the same time denying that any one Christian group can claim to be the exclusive manifestation of the church on earth. This is in contrast to sectarianism (see sect, sectarianism) which refers to the attitude in which a narrowly defined group sees itself as the only true manifestation of the church to the exclusion of all other groups.
All of which shows why we need Logos for definition of terms - what "denomination" means to you as a Reformed is not what "denomination" means to me as a Catholic. I have to set aside my understand and translate into your "Reformed-speak" for us to not talk past each other. And I can identify the differences between your "Reformed-speak" and my "Catholic-speak" to help you understand that the term means different things depending upon the theological context. What I can't do is translate "denomination" into "Mormon-speak" ... I'd need a Mormon source to explain that to me.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Is it safe to say that the people here believe that Mormonism is a denomination? I did not read anyone make that clear.
From the BBC website - so having no "denominational" bias:
Both the Vatican and the policy-making body of the United Methodist Church have decided that Mormons must be rebaptised when converting to Catholicism or Methodism.
This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised.
However Mormons require that everyone be baptised when they join their Church, no matter what background they come from.
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Paul Caneparo said:
This shows that the Roman Catholic Church regards Mormonism as varying in its essential beliefs from traditional Christianity. It does allow members of most Protestant and Orthodox churches to convert to Catholicism without being rebaptised.
Sort of ... in this case Wikipedia quotes the appropriate canon law - the canon law is available in Logos to check for yourself.
Wikipedia:rebaptism said:The Catholic Church holds that rebaptism is not possible:
1272. Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
The baptisms of those to be received into the Catholic Church from other Christian communities are held to be valid if administered using the Trinitarian formula. As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
1256. The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
...
1284. In case of necessity, any person can baptize provided that he have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that he pours water on the candidate's head while saying: "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."The 1983 Code of Canon Law (1983 CIC) addresses cases in which the validity of a person's baptism is in doubt:
Can. 869 §1. If there is a doubt whether a person has been baptized or whether baptism was conferred validly and the doubt remains after a serious investigation, baptism is to be conferred conditionally.
§2. Those baptized in a non-Catholic ecclesial community must not be baptized conditionally unless, after an examination of the matter and the form of the words used in the conferral of baptism and a consideration of the intention of the baptized adult and the minister of the baptism, a serious reason exists to doubt the validity of the baptism.
§3. If in the cases mentioned in §§1 and 2 the conferral or validity of the baptism remains doubtful, baptism is not to be conferred until after the doctrine of the sacrament of baptism is explained to the person to be baptized, if an adult, and the reasons of the doubtful validity of the baptism are explained to the person or, in the case of an infant, to the parents.
In cases where a valid baptism is performed subsequent to an invalid attempt, it is held that only one baptism actually occurred, namely the valid one. Thus baptism is never repeated.
Or for the official position with regards to baptisms in the Mormon Church against these canons, see https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Thanks for that David. But their are several books in logos will tell you a lot about Mormons. Just didn't want to leave any doubt.
iii The Four Major Cults
Hoekema, A. A. (1963). The Four Major Cults: Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormonism, Seventh-Day Adventism (p. iii). Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
Mormons
Answered
Verse by Verse
Reed, D. A., & Farkas, J. R. (1992). Mormons: Answered verse by verse (electronic ed., pp. 1–3). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.MORMONISM
CHANGES,
CONTRADICTIONS,
AND ERRORS
Farkas, J. R., & Reed, D., A. (1995). Mormonism: changes, contradictions, and errors (electronic ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.How to Answer a Mormon, Torey
Don’t forget reasoning from the scriptures with the Mormons and Decker’s complete handbook on Mormonism
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Thank you for that input Mattillo. I just grabbed a few titles from my library.
But I did find your post interesting MJ. Just from personal experience when asking someone if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that?
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Assuming I haven’t totally misinterpreted your question, I’ve encountered some who think that the question “Are you a Christian?” means “Are you a Protestant?” I suspect their answer reflects that interpretation.Mathew Haferkamp said:Thank you for that input Mattillo. I just grabbed a few titles from my library.
But I did find your post interesting MJ. Just from personal experience when asking someone if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that?
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Thank you for that input Mattillo. I just grabbed a few titles from my library.
Sure! I like Deckers. after I posted I also remembered that Walter Martin’s kingdom of the cults had a section too but I haven’t read it yet. I bought it from fleb
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Yea Mattillo I thought of that one after I posted, good call.
Now David I have never heard that before. Do you have some kind of reference to that or just a guess?
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Yea Mattillo I thought of that one after I posted, good call.
Now David I have never heard that before. Do you have some kind of reference to that or just a guess?
I've mainly seen this incident cited in Apologetics manuals where they say, "DON'T ever do this!" in talking to other Christians. I don't know if this will be a useful fact for you or not.
But I am coming from a Catholic perspective. It might not be the case for non-Catholics doing it.
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Thanks for the answer. I searched my library for "DON'T ever do this" and received two hits and not near any apologetics. Would you mind giving me a title, I hope that is in logos. Thanks very much.
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Not Logos. It was a Catholic Answers book. I'll see if I can find it. And I was paraphrasing. Sorry, I guess I made it look like I was making a direct quote.
[EDIT]: Searching my Logos for "Catholic not Christian", I was given a reference to a work called "Global Gospel" in the chapter "Later 20th Century" where the sample seems to be going in that direction. Unfortunately, I don't have the work to give the full quote. SO I don't know if this supports the point I was making or whether the context would be anti-Catholic.
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
if they are a Christian a Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran (I don't remember encountering any type of Orthodox) will say no I am Catholic, Roman Catholic, Lutheran but they don't consider themselves Christians why is that?
Given that in nearly 3/4 of a century I have never heard a Catholic or a Lutheran say they are not Christian, I haven't the slightest idea. The closest I have heard is when people ask with a very specific definition of Christian i.e. Christian = favored group only, they may say something to make clear that they are not part of that particular group but rather Christian in the sense of a broader definition.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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No MJ, it was just during the course of my day. I was not even thinking about Catholic or the others. Just talking to someone and then just asking them if they are Christian, not looking for anything except if they were saved or not.
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Thanks David, I don't have that book. But what you were saying I must say I have never read, it must be a Catholic thing. Not really wanting to get into Reformed vs. Catholicism, Thanks for looking!
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
not looking for anything except if they were saved or not.
Ah. that is exactly the answer!!! I know many Catholics with funny stories about some Protestant asking them if they are "saved". Probably no question makes a Catholic more uncomfortable because it is so far outside their normal vocabulary and world view. Catholics think in terms of being a member of the family of God/body of Christ, not individual salvation. They leave the final saved/not saved to God and therefore aren't concerned about it in the way the question implies.
In the context you supply, I can easily see Catholics, (High) Lutherans, (High) Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all try to give an answer that implies they reject the question as presented.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Good point. While most Christians would accept the meaning of Christian as "one who follows Christ," they might have certain assumptions about what following means to the other person. So, in saying "No, I'm..." they're probably acting on that assumption.
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No again MJ, I said that is what I thought but I always asked them if they were a Christian and usually very early in the conversation and quite frankly that usually ended it. If you want to continue this I tell you will exactly what I think of the Catholic church and the many many many mistakes or out right heresy it does. So quite trying to poke holes in what I am saying, and let it go. The only reason I commented on this thread was to make sure it was stated that Mormonism is NOT Christian and as far as I am concerned a cult, they should stay away from trying to normalize themselves by trying to call themselves Christian.
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
If you want to continue this I tell you will exactly what I think of . . .
No, the guidelines would be enforced. However your response implies you forget your words are only one part of what you communicate, and what you communicate is always in the context of who you are. This post tells me everything I need to know to understand why you received the response you did. David Wanat and I have provided the "why".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
Mormonism is NOT Christian and as far as I am concerned a cult, they should stay away from trying to normalize themselves by trying to call themselves Christian.
Well, in our neck of the woods, 'Christian' doesn't count. 'Born-again'. I remember a local election a few years back, the mayor was invited to our church group at one of the homes. She said she was a Christian ... a member confidently told her that was a zero ... she wasn't born-again. Pretty much finished up the conversation.
So, I'd presume the Catholics and Latter Day Saints are now grouped in with a sizable share of Protestants. Probably meet in Antioch.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Wanat said:
Searching my Logos for "Catholic not Christian", I was given a reference to a work called "Global Gospel" in the chapter "Later 20th Century" where the sample seems to be going in that direction. Unfortunately, I don't have the work to give the full quote. SO I don't know if this supports the point I was making or whether the context would be anti-Catholic.
Global Gospel: An Introduction to Christianity on Five Continents by Douglas Jacobsen Pg. 204 said:Denominational loyalties had already been in decline before the culture war began, but they have eroded much faster during the last four decades. While Catholics still know they are Catholics, and most Protestants know they are Protestants, specific denominational identities have been largely set aside. Rather than calling themselves Lutheran or Baptist or Presbyterian, American Protestants are much more likely to say they are “just Christians.” In fact, the word Christian has begun to function as a synonym for Protestant. This is so much the case that even some Catholics now describe themselves as “Catholic, not Christian” to distinguish themselves from Protestantism. Rather than linking themselves to denominations, increasing numbers of American Protestants identify themselves religiously by their connections with individual congregations. In fact, congregation-centered, non-denominational Protestantism is one of the fastest-growing sectors of Christianity in the nation. This is especially true of megachurches with sufficient resources to go it alone, but many smaller congregation have taken this path as well. The nondenominational sector of Protestantism now accounts for 7 percent of the total American population. The nondenominational movement has become so strong that even congregations with continuing denominational ties often downplay those connections, because denominational affiliation has become more of a detriment than an asset in attracting new members. Christianity in America has always been diverse and offered a wide range of choices. In the past, those choices were often defined denominationally; today they are likely to focus on congregational connections.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you. I suspected there was more to the quote than I could see.
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Verbum Max0 -
I like this quote from Michael Bird. The point being different denominations will take different viewpoints on certain things, but the first order points are essential and make a "theology" Christian.
First order doctrines are those which are essential and nonnegotiable in the Christian belief mosaic, such as the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the atonement, Christ’s resurrection, Christ’s return, and salvation by grace through faith—things without which one cannot be a Christian. Second order doctrines are those such as baptism, church government, or one’s view of end-times theology, and other related matters that are indeed important for faith and the life of the church but are not ultimately obstructive for Christian unity. Third order doctrines are those that are adiaphora or matters of indifference, such as whether Christians can drink alcohol, whether should they homeschool their children, what Bible translations should they use, and the like.
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Paul Caneparo said:
I like this quote from Michael Bird. The point being different denominations will take different viewpoints on certain things, but the first order points are essential and make a "theology" Christian.
First order doctrines are those which are essential and nonnegotiable in the Christian belief mosaic, such as the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the atonement, Christ’s resurrection, Christ’s return, and salvation by grace through faith—things without which one cannot be a Christian. Second order doctrines are those such as baptism, church government, or one’s view of end-times theology, and other related matters that are indeed important for faith and the life of the church but are not ultimately obstructive for Christian unity. Third order doctrines are those that are adiaphora or matters of indifference, such as whether Christians can drink alcohol, whether should they homeschool their children, what Bible translations should they use, and the like.
Is that from a Book, Paul?
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Mattillo said:Paul Caneparo said:
I like this quote from Michael Bird. The point being different denominations will take different viewpoints on certain things, but the first order points are essential and make a "theology" Christian.
First order doctrines are those which are essential and nonnegotiable in the Christian belief mosaic, such as the Trinity, the inspiration of the Scriptures, the atonement, Christ’s resurrection, Christ’s return, and salvation by grace through faith—things without which one cannot be a Christian. Second order doctrines are those such as baptism, church government, or one’s view of end-times theology, and other related matters that are indeed important for faith and the life of the church but are not ultimately obstructive for Christian unity. Third order doctrines are those that are adiaphora or matters of indifference, such as whether Christians can drink alcohol, whether should they homeschool their children, what Bible translations should they use, and the like.
Is that from a Book, Paul?
Yes. From a book totally unrelated to this issue, but the quote is still relevant in terms of what shouldn't divide Christians and what matters mean someone cannot rightly be understood to be Christian..
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