Logos 10 Will be released...
Comments
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DMB said:
I think you identified the cultural problem. Users see software as a solution ... not a design to be battled. Staff see users as not correctly following the design.
Then, there's 'customers'.
You might be misunderstanding me or reading too much into what I'm saying.
I'm intentionally trying not to make any comments about "what should be", or "what might be", or "what could be". Instead, I'm trying to explain "what is" (and a little bit of the history of why it is that way) in an effort to help a customer get a handle on how to better use the software as it is today.
It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Andrew Batishko said:
It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.
And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.
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DMB said:
And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.
Thanks for your perspective, DMB.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Andrew Batishko said:
That said, if you know you want to search, then rather than hitting "enter", you should be hitting "shift-enter", which will always run the search. You can safely hit that without viewing the list of suggestions that pops up. There are some other search options as well with hotkeys (you can see the hotkey at the bottom of the list of suggestions) that are also safe to use without first checking to see what else shows up in the list.
Thank you, Andrew, for stepping in. The shift-enter suggestion is a good one for me to add to my list of answers for the forums.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Taylor Jr said:
Some sort of Logos Calvinism?Jerry Bush said:Have not been chosen since then.
Totally Dependent Users
Unending Tagging
Limited Betas
Irresistible Purchases
Playful Forum threads
LOL I just saw this and nearly choked on my oatmeal. [Y]
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I also appreciate your comments Andrew... Thanks.
I will say... I think.. the Search in Logos will eventually get "fixed"...
Edit... So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook.... hmmm I'm a thinking I am not understanding .....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...
shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:xnman said:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...
shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.
Yeppers.... that was the secret! Thanks... Well... I spoke too soon.... so I typed bronze serpent (no quotes) held shift down....then pressed enter... up jumps Factbook... So I says "Self, you gotta get this...cause MJ done said..." So I tried "bronze serpent" with quotes... and low and behold.... I'm consistent I still get Factbook...
Is there some setting somewhere in Settings that would make a difference?
I think I already made Factbook mad at me and now it's out to get me.... lol. [8-|]
Sorry... found the problem.... it was me.... I am too quick on the enter key... sorry bout that....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I was unaware of Shift + Enter. That’s good enough for me. Thanks for the tip.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if:
- you don't hit enter until you have seen the top entry in the select list and know you want it
- you don't hit enter until you selected another entry in the select list if you don't want the first entry
- you use the search panel for a search rather than the GO/Command box (or)
- you use shift-enter when you want to start a search from the GO/Command box
Factbook opens only when you ask for it. Quit asking for it and it will move down in the selection list. It's like a punching bag ... you keep hitting it, it keeps swinging back in your face.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Wanat said:
I was unaware of Shift + Enter. That’s good enough for me. Thanks for the tip.
The unfortunate thing is that the people who probably most want to know about the keyboard shortcut are the ones who are not waiting around long enough to see the list of suggestions (which displays the shortcut). [:S]
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if ...
... Factbook would put what you typed first .... like in the rest of Logos (and Verbum).
I reloaded the earlier Verbum9 screen copy below, for illustration.
But I also tested Factbook in Logos7. Typing in 'Testament of Abraham' retrieved the phrase as the first menu choice (excellent). And, pressing Enter indeed went looking for the desired morsel (topic, dictionaries, journals, etc). Again, excellent. And finally, closing Factbook, and reopening it, did indeed successfully retrieve Testament of Abraham. Excellent. Logos9 could not do any one of these steps correctly.
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DMB said:MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if ...
... Factbook would put what you typed first .... like in the rest of Logos (and Verbum).
I reloaded the earlier Verbum9 screen copy below, for illustration.
It is quite true that the solution for xnman is not the solution for DMB as they have different issues with different causes. But then you knew that.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Actually I don't care .... not my work product. But I agree with xnman that Factbook needs UI work. It's certainly not prime-time for the market they're intending (TV dinners ... smiling). And 4 years later.
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At the end of the day, L10 will have whatever old and new features they put in it and we’ll have 3 choices: 1) Upgrade by buying or free engine, 2) Upgrade by subscription or 3) Not upgrade.
I guess we’ll decide whenever L10 comes out 👍😁👌
DAL
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DAL said:
At the end of the day, L10 will have whatever old and new features they put in it and we’ll have 3 choices: 1) Upgrade by buying or free engine, 2) Upgrade by subscription or 3) Not upgrade.
I guess we’ll decide whenever L10 comes out 👍😁👌
DAL
Let’s face it. If we were going for option 3, we would probably not be having these discussions on this thread 😉
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if:
- you don't hit enter until you have seen the top entry in the select list and know you want it
- you don't hit enter until you selected another entry in the select list if you don't want the first entry
- you use the search panel for a search rather than the GO/Command box (or)
- you use shift-enter when you want to start a search from the GO/Command box
Factbook opens only when you ask for it. Quit asking for it and it will move down in the selection list. It's like a punching bag ... you keep hitting it, it keeps swinging back in your face.
I'll just quit using the "Go Box" and live with a "handicapped Logos".... No problem. FYI... that's what I've been doing... and I don't use Factbook simply because I have not found that it works for me...
And there are times I know how Saul of Tarsus felt.... lol ---- "And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” -- Act 9:5-6.
No offense meant....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
No offense meant....
No offense taken -- but i am a strong believer in the virtue of equanimity.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
I'll just quit using the "Go Box" and live with a "handicapped Logos"....
That seems to be a bit extreme! Why, pray, did you not foreswear the stabbing at the return key and resolve to click on an appropriate offering?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
That strikes me more of a design flaw than a feature. People used to the pre-Factbook version of Logos get stuck with something they did not ask for and are inconvenienced.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
MJ. Smith said:John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
Say what you may.... but my way I don't have to worry about "up jumps Factbook" -- [H]. Any way... I'll probably learn differently somewhere down the road.
And now... when I do a Search.... how do I get Factbook not to show up in my Search.... hmmm? [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
And now... when I do a Search.... how do I get Factbook not to show up in my Search.... hmmm?
Avoid the Everything search! If you select Shift+Enter from the GO Box you can close the Factbook section and it will remain that way. To get it to disappear you need a suggestion.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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David Wanat said:
That strikes me more of a design flaw than a feature. People used to the pre-Factbook version of Logos get stuck with something they did not ask for and are inconvenienced.
Wasn't there before Factbook.... but I do agree with you. I'll probably try what MJ and such are saying to see if the Go Box actually learns how I would like to work...
Reminds me of Microsoft pushing Internet Explorer on everyone.... it was just a nuisance till Microsoft finally got the message... I just don't like that kind of "Marxism".... make the programs or functions.... let me choose how they are used. I don't mind the functions or programs being available... but don't like them forced on me.
Does that make me a bad guy?
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Wasn't there before Factbook.... but I do agree with you. I'll probably try what MJ and such are saying to see if the Go Box actually learns how I would like to work...
Not quite. Factbook actually preceded the present confusion (Logos 7, which does as you seem to prefer, with Factbook not intruding).
And I don't know anyone that prefers a single choice every time .... they tend to want this ... but then that. So, the UI design is flawed from the start. I think they were trying to appeal to first-time users, plus place their 'Fact'-'book' in showtime lights.
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
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DMB said:
Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect
I've apparently never met a good Logosian [:(]
FL is damned if they do; damned if they don't. When Factbook V2 was announced it was described as (1) incomplete and like Wikipedia probably never have a "complete" status (2) a move towards a simple interface for the casual users who had been very vocal that Logos was too difficult for them - the eventual goal being that Factbook could be a logical starting point for all their studies and that other tools could be initiated from Factbook. I am amused by the number of complaints that searching for "basic information" is "too hard" when the solution is simply to get the information from Factbook or use the Bible Browser.
What FL needs is for users who don't find Factbook useful to tell them precisely what information they are looking for that Factbook does not provide. For me, that is semantic and grammatical roles which were available in Factbook V1, treatment of multi-word lexical units, and liturgical use data. FL needs users to tell them why they are running a search rather than using the Browser and what would nudge them towards the Browser.
No, I am not saying Logos is perfect. I am saying that complaints need to have meat to them not just whining if Logos is going to improve. I am saying that using the right tool within Logos is often the solution so keep asking "is there a better way to find ..." And, finally, I am saying I am used to settling for less than perfect computer tools because I am unwilling to pay for the high-end product ... I must similarly recognize that Logos as a product is budget constrained..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
No, I am not saying Logos is perfect. I am saying that complaints need to have meat to them not just whining if Logos is going to improve. I am saying that using the right tool within Logos is often the solution so keep asking "is there a better way to find ..." And, finally, I am saying I am used to settling for less than perfect computer tools because I am unwilling to pay for the high-end product ... I must similarly recognize that Logos as a product is budget constrained..
I guess I come from a 'customer' world. Not a 'user' world where responsibilty for a good interface presumably lies with the 'user'.
- I don't remember (any?) comments on how easy Logos is. Their motto is 'watch another video'; not just 'study the Bible'.
- Using language from Dan's earlier comments, they're big boys (actually 'dogs'). They know exactly what Xnman knows (and more).
I think we'll alway disagree on this?
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When Jesus didn't follow the forecasted May 24, '88, I realized He didn't write that book!
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Now, THAT's funny, right there!!!
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DMB said:
I guess I come from a 'customer' world. Not a 'user' world where responsibilty for a good interface presumably lies with the 'user'.
I come from a world where the "customers" included academics, researchers, professional financial, amateur financial, personnel, clerical, affirmative action, publishers, housing and food services, hospitals, ships, sites around the world including on the ice . . . where there was no single interface appropriate to all users. Rather we were dependent upon classes of users to show us how they used the data and then we designed an interface appropriate to that use. A dedicated departmental payroll clerk had little in common with a cook/payroll clerk out on the ice - not even the structure of their pay.
DMB said:I think we'll alway disagree on this?
I think we have related but very different experience bases - FL needs to value both to get the best product.
DMB said:They know exactly what Xnman knows (and more).
Someone knows what Xnman knows?!!!
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
It does seem to be unfair in the context of this discussion, which it seems to me, is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Facebook, but an insistence on the use of the Enter key when it is inappropriate.
I am ready to criticise, yea even mock Faithlife for some of their failings. Indeed, in their position, I would take action and disable the Enter key when the focus is on the Go box thereby ensuring everyone clicked on at least one option from the drop-down menu.
Factbook may or may not be a dog's breakfast but if it intrudes on one's workflow in this situation, it really is a self inflicted injury.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:DMB said:
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
It does seem to be unfair in the context of this discussion, which it seems to me, is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Facebook, but an insistence on the use of the Enter key when it is inappropriate.
I am ready to criticise, yea even mock Faithlife for some of their failings. Indeed, in their position, I would take action and disable the Enter key when the focus is on the Go box thereby ensuring everyone clicked on at least one option from the drop-down menu.
Factbook may or may not be a dog's breakfast but if it intrudes on one's workflow in this situation, it really is a self inflicted injury.
Well, to be honest, Mike, I don't participate in 'micro-aggressions' ... aggressive is aggressive. And I assume you could tell it's reverse-humor ... which is also in the OT by the way. Now for aggression, last night, a young deer stopped by for water in our pond (we're high desert). You could see his ribs. But you could also see he got tangled up with a cat (mountain lion). But he was still enjoying the evening. Life is good.
I'm not sure why you think a UI interface is 'self-inflicted' when poorly designed. What's worse, it's the entry for new users (go-box). I think Xnian's comments were a good point, concerning the next update.
BTW, if you're curious about the 'dog', the quote from Dan, was that Logos staff needs to 'run with the big dogs'.
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Mike Binks said:
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
Do you really want to open this up to where the “micro-aggressions” began in this thread? I’d say that’s the kind of comment that could start a flame war.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
I would agree
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I would agree.
Thompson Chain Reference Bible has the best cross reference I have seen. Love it.
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Let me re-state and clarify...
It appears to me that Factbook is a "hopeful useful" additive to "try" to help alleviate the inabilities of Search. Such is the same truths about some of the guides and such. If Search worked well... a lot of those "additives" would not be needed. And I would suggest to FL that time be spent to make Search a "GREAT" function in Logos so that it is the "main" go-to when looking for something. I think that's simple enough.... Why have millions of resources if I cannot find something in them? Or why have a Bible program that allows me to have millions of resources and yet I have to go outside the program to find things I am stuying on? I have yet to understand that logic...
As to Factbook... When I have used it... I spend as much time "trying to get it to find something" as I do in Search.... (time is important) and so I eventually give up... go to another search engine... find what I am looking for and continue with my study. Sooo....
My questions to all you ... Prefaced with... with all your arguments to me about that I should conform and blindly accept whatever the "Great Logos" puts out.. (which by the way, I don't do... I refuse to drink the coo-aid....) Of which these questions are valid.....
1. Do you really think... Logos Search is so "perfect" that it cannot be improved?
2. Are you so "Logoized" that you are not even willing to look to making things with Search better?
3. Does you coming down on others in a condescending way... such that they (me) do conform and shout the praises of Logos... ? To this I would say and have said, I like Logos... but just think Search doesn't do the job...
All I have tried to do... is show (which I have if you read this thread...) that Search is not working for some searches and needs improving...
--- I've stated straight-out I think Search is so "categorized" by FL that FL hunts to pick a place where my search would go...if it doesn't fit the categories FL has pre-determined. The result of which... I have to learn "hieroglyphics" and the way FL thinks about something in order for me to be able to find something I am looking for. I think this is a hindrance to the Search function...
And I don't like Factbook coming up unless I choose to use it to do so .... simply because I have not found it to be useful... It is like Search...
Not trying to offend anyone... but am trying to clarify my position.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
It appears to me that Factbook is a "hopeful useful" additive to "try" to help alleviate the inabilities of Search. Such is the same truths about some of the guides and such.
Okay, we are making progress. That is not how I see Factbook at all. Factbook, to me, appears to be an attempt to provide encyclopedic information about Bible topics in a modern (read Wikipedia) way. I don't relate it directly to search at all. However, we have previously established that you use "search" in a wider sense than I as you use it for what I would call "lookups". As to your reference to guides, I think of them as saving me the extra steps of creating complex searches that are frequently requested by users. Several of these searches require direct queries against the SQL databases and cannot be recreated through the Search function. The Guides keep Logos from simply being databases against which one runs SQL queries and run logical merges on the results.
xnman said:And I would suggest to FL that time be spent to make Search a "GREAT" function in Logos so that it is the "main" go-to when looking for something.
The average user is more interested in the data being at their fingertips, I believe - otherwise they would build a database and use SQL queries. It is my observation from the way in which users ask how to build searches, that many users lack the skills necessary to define their queries, let alone build them in SQL. That is the reason behind the search extensions such as labels ... to allow users to find information in terms that are meaningful to them. For example, how would you build a query based on the Bible text alone, to find all the miracles in the Bible? I can't imagine doing it without the use of graphs (networks, webs ... whatever term is familiar to you) and artificial intelligence techniques/natural language processing techniques.
xnman said:Why have millions of resources if I cannot find something in them?
Without concrete examples, I can't answer this question. I have been trying for weeks to understand why you have so much difficulty and made one break-through based on your example of Moses' wife. As long as you post generalities rather than specific examples, I fear I may get no further in finding the missing piece that makes Logos so frustrating for you.
xnman said:with all your arguments to me about that I should conform and blindly accept whatever the "Great Logos" puts out.
You misunderstand. My position is that one must learn to use the software as it is designed to be used before you can begin customizing it to use as you wish to use it. To do otherwise, will result only in frustration -- trying to get tools to do things they are not designed to do rather than finding if there is a tool that meets your needs.
xnman said:1. Do you really think... Logos Search is so "perfect" that it cannot be improved?
Of course not, and I have said nothing that implied this.
xnman said:2. Are you so "Logoized" that you are not even willing to look to making things with Search better?
Of course not, which is why I endlessly document it, learn its quirks, make concrete suggestions for improvement ... PS. I hope I am Verbumized not Logosized.
xnman said:3. Does you coming down on others in a condescending way... such that they (me) do conform and shout the praises of Logos... ?
In person, I have never been accused of being condescending. On the contrary, I am someone who people are comfortable sharing difficult experiences with - things they share with neither their doctor nor their pastor, I hear spontaneously.
On the other hand, I fail to see how any of your questions move us forwards either in understanding your difficulties with the search or in creating concrete suggestions for improvement of the Search. Aren't those the actual purpose of this discussion?
xnman said:I think Search is so "categorized" by FL that FL hunts to pick a place where my search would go...if it doesn't fit the categories FL has pre-determined. The result of which... I have to learn "hieroglyphics" and the way FL thinks about something in order for me to be able to find something I am looking for.
This is true for the tagging that replaces natural language processing graphs (graphs in the mathematical sense). But this should be a small portion of your work. Did I misunderstand when I believed that basic searches were the problem? Can you give some examples?
xnman said:And I don't like Factbook coming up unless I choose to use it to do so
It doesn't ... and as long as you think it does, I'll think "Houston, we have a problem in the chair-to-keyboard interface. Corrective action needed."
xnman said:simply because I have not found it to be useful.
What specifically have you tried finding in Factbook? Concrete examples please. Note: I rarely use Factbook because it makes no attempt to cover the subject matter I am most interested in. That doesn't mean I don't recognize its value for other lines of inquiry.
xnman said:Not trying to offend anyone
I know no one on the forums who is so invested in the software as to take offense at valid criticism of its shortcomings. That is not the issue at hand. The issue is that you are clearly frustrated at your inability to get the information you want through Logos. To help you, we need concrete examples of your difficulties and a willingness on your part to accept guidance, at least on a temporary basis, on how to successfully use Logos to meet your needs. Once you understand one way that Logos is designed to provide the information, you are then free to choose your own path.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you MJ... I appreciate your point of view. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Not trying to offend anyone... but am trying to clarify my position.
That helps - and I too find the search facility hard to use and not very productive when I do.
However the only item on your hit list of improvements that I have been discussing is
"11. Stop Factbook from opening every time when I try to type in "Go Box" or Search. If I want Factbook open... let me choose to do so and don't force it on me. (I don't use Factbook... it doesn't help me find anything and now it is a nuisance or a "make work interruptus" in that I have to stop and close it)."
It is the opening of Facebook every time one types in the Go box that I claim is an 'self inflicted injury' based on an instinctive desire to press Enter rather than select a useful entry from the drop-down menu.
My posts have not been intended to deal with any of the other, more serious faults with the search system. I do not want the developers spending time dealing with a non-problem when there are so many really useful things that they could be fixing.
I have suggested that they disable the Enter key when the Go box is in use however I really don't want them even spending time to do that.
In my, not very extensive, testing I find that Factbook does not open when I type in the Go box.
and I could skip it should I wish. Incidentally clicking on the first entry leads me here...
Clicking on the Read more link gives me...
And my question is answered in three clicks.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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xnman said:
Thank you MJ... I appreciate your point of view.
But you still haven't provided specific examples of Search that you find so difficult. Screenshots of a Search would help, together with an explanation of what you are trying to accomplish.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mike Binks said:
However the only item on your hit list of improvements that I have been discussing is
"11. Stop Factbook from opening every time when I try to type in "Go Box" or Search. If I want Factbook open... let me choose to do so and don't force it on me. (I don't use Factbook... it doesn't help me find anything and now it is a nuisance or a "make work interruptus" in that I have to stop and close it)."
It is the opening of Facebook every time one types in the Go box that I claim is an 'self inflicted injury' based on an instinctive desire to press Enter rather than select a useful entry from the drop-down menu.
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up. So, I wouldn't say "self-inflicted injury." I'd say having Logos 10 allowing a setting to choose whether "Search" or "Factbook" coming up first would be a better way to do things.
The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook.
I find when opening resources, my most common use of the GO box, I often have to wait for the correct option to come up -- none of the initial suggestions are Factbook. They are alternative resources or locations to open to. That is why I keep asking for the logic to always first take a valid complete command as I have entered it. If Factbook is still your first options to show, that implies that you request Factbook more frequently than other options. If that statement is not true, then we need to document how to reproduce the bug for Faithlife to repair.
David Wanat said:The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
How I would put it:"xnman saying 'the current system doesn't work the way I want it to. I don't want to learn how to work with the system as designed. I won't provide specifics. I am frustrated as all-get-out and frustrated that people want to help rather than sympathize.'" Looking back through many of the threads including xnman's concerns, I find actual examples are as scarce as hens' teeth. Unfortunately, until he provides concrete examples, he has exceeded my ability to believe I can provide any effective help. I am never happy leaving someone asking for help no better off than when they asked in the forum but I see no alternative.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Unfortunately, I don’t think your answer refuted my characterization. Rather it confirmed it. So, I’ll be dropping out of further comments on this topic on the thread, waiting for the topic to shift.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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David Wanat said:
Unfortunately, I don’t think your answer refuted my characterization.
Unfortunately? A common form of argumentation aims to argue to a consensus. Alternative perspectives need not imply refutation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Doesn't this wait depend on the speed of ones processor? My system took 3 seconds to produce the options for 'Mud'. How does that compare with seeking out a resource and running an inline search. BTW the Lexham Bible Dictionary doesn't seem to have an article on Mud ;-)
David Wanat said:The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
There comes a time when the guy who regularly goes into the workshop complaining that when he pushes the break pedal his car slows down get short shift from the mechanic who has told him often enough that if he doesn't want his car to slow down not to push the enter key brake pedal.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Hmn ... what do you do at a train station where trains going in different directions stop while you are standing at the platform wanting to get in the train that will take you to where you want to go? Do you just enter the first train that stops without checking that it is actually the train you want to use? Who would be to blame for you entering a train you did not want to use?
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....[:(]Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Ok.... back to the future.... MJ... look up "kings of northern kingdom" in Search....
I thought then... and think now... that's a good example.... And like I have asked.... why keep paying (high dollars) for a program that does not work with me and only works the way PHD's in hieroglyphics knows how to use it?
As to Factbook... Ok ... the "Shift pause Enter" does work... I admit... I wasn't patient.... but still the thought exists of what Logos is trying to do with Factbook...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
MJ... look up "kings of northern kingdom" in Search....
Not MJ but when I carry out that search I get the results below:
This shows that I have two resources that contain that exact phrase. And I think that's a valid result for that particular search.
But I don't expect that is the sort of result you are looking for.
So to help me understand further, please clarify what you are hoping to find. It might be that simply providing that particular string is not the best way to do it, or it might be that Logos isn't set up to give you the specific information you are interested in. But without knowing what type of results you are looking for it's impossible to know.
Are you, for example, looking for:
- a list of these kings (and their dates)
- a chart showing their relationship to each other
- detailed information about their lives
- etc
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....
New MBP with ample memory, latest Verbum, empty workspace, 11 secs to open menu. Sounds like a new train station is in order.
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