Logos 10 Will be released...
Comments
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DMB said:
I think you identified the cultural problem. Users see software as a solution ... not a design to be battled. Staff see users as not correctly following the design.
Then, there's 'customers'.
You might be misunderstanding me or reading too much into what I'm saying.
I'm intentionally trying not to make any comments about "what should be", or "what might be", or "what could be". Instead, I'm trying to explain "what is" (and a little bit of the history of why it is that way) in an effort to help a customer get a handle on how to better use the software as it is today.
It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Andrew Batishko said:
It's not my role to participate in a discussion here about what changes would be best for the future.
And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.
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DMB said:
And I should be clear ... your comments are appreciated. And well expressed. I use the word 'staff' as the participants back at Bellingham. I used to manage software design for a 70k employee company. 'Staff' was mine, and perspective always a challenge.
Thanks for your perspective, DMB.
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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Andrew Batishko said:
That said, if you know you want to search, then rather than hitting "enter", you should be hitting "shift-enter", which will always run the search. You can safely hit that without viewing the list of suggestions that pops up. There are some other search options as well with hotkeys (you can see the hotkey at the bottom of the list of suggestions) that are also safe to use without first checking to see what else shows up in the list.
Thank you, Andrew, for stepping in. The shift-enter suggestion is a good one for me to add to my list of answers for the forums.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Taylor Jr said:
Some sort of Logos Calvinism?Jerry Bush said:Have not been chosen since then.
Totally Dependent Users
Unending Tagging
Limited Betas
Irresistible Purchases
Playful Forum threads
LOL I just saw this and nearly choked on my oatmeal. [Y]
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I also appreciate your comments Andrew... Thanks.
I will say... I think.. the Search in Logos will eventually get "fixed"...
Edit... So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook.... hmmm I'm a thinking I am not understanding .....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...
shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:xnman said:
So I enter "bronze serpent" in the Go box and press "Shift Enter" and I get Factbook...
shift+enter brings up a search for me. Did you try to enter them simultaneously, rather than shift-hold-enter? If so, your enter finger was faster than your shift finger.
Yeppers.... that was the secret! Thanks... Well... I spoke too soon.... so I typed bronze serpent (no quotes) held shift down....then pressed enter... up jumps Factbook... So I says "Self, you gotta get this...cause MJ done said..." So I tried "bronze serpent" with quotes... and low and behold.... I'm consistent I still get Factbook...
Is there some setting somewhere in Settings that would make a difference?
I think I already made Factbook mad at me and now it's out to get me.... lol. [8-|]
Sorry... found the problem.... it was me.... I am too quick on the enter key... sorry bout that....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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I was unaware of Shift + Enter. That’s good enough for me. Thanks for the tip.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if:
- you don't hit enter until you have seen the top entry in the select list and know you want it
- you don't hit enter until you selected another entry in the select list if you don't want the first entry
- you use the search panel for a search rather than the GO/Command box (or)
- you use shift-enter when you want to start a search from the GO/Command box
Factbook opens only when you ask for it. Quit asking for it and it will move down in the selection list. It's like a punching bag ... you keep hitting it, it keeps swinging back in your face.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Wanat said:
I was unaware of Shift + Enter. That’s good enough for me. Thanks for the tip.
The unfortunate thing is that the people who probably most want to know about the keyboard shortcut are the ones who are not waiting around long enough to see the list of suggestions (which displays the shortcut). [:S]
Andrew Batishko | Logos software developer
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MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if ...
... Factbook would put what you typed first .... like in the rest of Logos (and Verbum).
I reloaded the earlier Verbum9 screen copy below, for illustration.
But I also tested Factbook in Logos7. Typing in 'Testament of Abraham' retrieved the phrase as the first menu choice (excellent). And, pressing Enter indeed went looking for the desired morsel (topic, dictionaries, journals, etc). Again, excellent. And finally, closing Factbook, and reopening it, did indeed successfully retrieve Testament of Abraham. Excellent. Logos9 could not do any one of these steps correctly.
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DMB said:MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if ...
... Factbook would put what you typed first .... like in the rest of Logos (and Verbum).
I reloaded the earlier Verbum9 screen copy below, for illustration.
It is quite true that the solution for xnman is not the solution for DMB as they have different issues with different causes. But then you knew that.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Actually I don't care .... not my work product. But I agree with xnman that Factbook needs UI work. It's certainly not prime-time for the market they're intending (TV dinners ... smiling). And 4 years later.
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At the end of the day, L10 will have whatever old and new features they put in it and we’ll have 3 choices: 1) Upgrade by buying or free engine, 2) Upgrade by subscription or 3) Not upgrade.
I guess we’ll decide whenever L10 comes out 👍😁👌
DAL
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DAL said:
At the end of the day, L10 will have whatever old and new features they put in it and we’ll have 3 choices: 1) Upgrade by buying or free engine, 2) Upgrade by subscription or 3) Not upgrade.
I guess we’ll decide whenever L10 comes out 👍😁👌
DAL
Let’s face it. If we were going for option 3, we would probably not be having these discussions on this thread 😉
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Most of your "problems" with factbook will disappear if:
- you don't hit enter until you have seen the top entry in the select list and know you want it
- you don't hit enter until you selected another entry in the select list if you don't want the first entry
- you use the search panel for a search rather than the GO/Command box (or)
- you use shift-enter when you want to start a search from the GO/Command box
Factbook opens only when you ask for it. Quit asking for it and it will move down in the selection list. It's like a punching bag ... you keep hitting it, it keeps swinging back in your face.
I'll just quit using the "Go Box" and live with a "handicapped Logos".... No problem. FYI... that's what I've been doing... and I don't use Factbook simply because I have not found that it works for me...
And there are times I know how Saul of Tarsus felt.... lol ---- "And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.” -- Act 9:5-6.
No offense meant....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
No offense meant....
No offense taken -- but i am a strong believer in the virtue of equanimity.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
I'll just quit using the "Go Box" and live with a "handicapped Logos"....
That seems to be a bit extreme! Why, pray, did you not foreswear the stabbing at the return key and resolve to click on an appropriate offering?
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
That strikes me more of a design flaw than a feature. People used to the pre-Factbook version of Logos get stuck with something they did not ask for and are inconvenienced.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
MJ. Smith said:John Goodman said:
Is it not true that the go box will learn your preferences?
That's what bit him -- he kept hitting enter too early when Factbook was on top which trained the GO box to offer Factbook everhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielhttps://www.ranker.com/list/best-crab-to-eat/carly-kielmore often. This is what I call a chair to keyboard interface issue. Yes, if he held off and actually chose the option he wanted, the GO box would learn to move that to the top.
Say what you may.... but my way I don't have to worry about "up jumps Factbook" -- [H]. Any way... I'll probably learn differently somewhere down the road.
And now... when I do a Search.... how do I get Factbook not to show up in my Search.... hmmm? [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
And now... when I do a Search.... how do I get Factbook not to show up in my Search.... hmmm?
Avoid the Everything search! If you select Shift+Enter from the GO Box you can close the Factbook section and it will remain that way. To get it to disappear you need a suggestion.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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David Wanat said:
That strikes me more of a design flaw than a feature. People used to the pre-Factbook version of Logos get stuck with something they did not ask for and are inconvenienced.
Wasn't there before Factbook.... but I do agree with you. I'll probably try what MJ and such are saying to see if the Go Box actually learns how I would like to work...
Reminds me of Microsoft pushing Internet Explorer on everyone.... it was just a nuisance till Microsoft finally got the message... I just don't like that kind of "Marxism".... make the programs or functions.... let me choose how they are used. I don't mind the functions or programs being available... but don't like them forced on me.
Does that make me a bad guy?
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Wasn't there before Factbook.... but I do agree with you. I'll probably try what MJ and such are saying to see if the Go Box actually learns how I would like to work...
Not quite. Factbook actually preceded the present confusion (Logos 7, which does as you seem to prefer, with Factbook not intruding).
And I don't know anyone that prefers a single choice every time .... they tend to want this ... but then that. So, the UI design is flawed from the start. I think they were trying to appeal to first-time users, plus place their 'Fact'-'book' in showtime lights.
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
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DMB said:
Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect
I've apparently never met a good Logosian [:(]
FL is damned if they do; damned if they don't. When Factbook V2 was announced it was described as (1) incomplete and like Wikipedia probably never have a "complete" status (2) a move towards a simple interface for the casual users who had been very vocal that Logos was too difficult for them - the eventual goal being that Factbook could be a logical starting point for all their studies and that other tools could be initiated from Factbook. I am amused by the number of complaints that searching for "basic information" is "too hard" when the solution is simply to get the information from Factbook or use the Bible Browser.
What FL needs is for users who don't find Factbook useful to tell them precisely what information they are looking for that Factbook does not provide. For me, that is semantic and grammatical roles which were available in Factbook V1, treatment of multi-word lexical units, and liturgical use data. FL needs users to tell them why they are running a search rather than using the Browser and what would nudge them towards the Browser.
No, I am not saying Logos is perfect. I am saying that complaints need to have meat to them not just whining if Logos is going to improve. I am saying that using the right tool within Logos is often the solution so keep asking "is there a better way to find ..." And, finally, I am saying I am used to settling for less than perfect computer tools because I am unwilling to pay for the high-end product ... I must similarly recognize that Logos as a product is budget constrained..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
No, I am not saying Logos is perfect. I am saying that complaints need to have meat to them not just whining if Logos is going to improve. I am saying that using the right tool within Logos is often the solution so keep asking "is there a better way to find ..." And, finally, I am saying I am used to settling for less than perfect computer tools because I am unwilling to pay for the high-end product ... I must similarly recognize that Logos as a product is budget constrained..
I guess I come from a 'customer' world. Not a 'user' world where responsibilty for a good interface presumably lies with the 'user'.
- I don't remember (any?) comments on how easy Logos is. Their motto is 'watch another video'; not just 'study the Bible'.
- Using language from Dan's earlier comments, they're big boys (actually 'dogs'). They know exactly what Xnman knows (and more).
I think we'll alway disagree on this?
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When Jesus didn't follow the forecasted May 24, '88, I realized He didn't write that book!
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Now, THAT's funny, right there!!!
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