Logos 10 Will be released...
Comments
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DMB said:
I guess I come from a 'customer' world. Not a 'user' world where responsibilty for a good interface presumably lies with the 'user'.
I come from a world where the "customers" included academics, researchers, professional financial, amateur financial, personnel, clerical, affirmative action, publishers, housing and food services, hospitals, ships, sites around the world including on the ice . . . where there was no single interface appropriate to all users. Rather we were dependent upon classes of users to show us how they used the data and then we designed an interface appropriate to that use. A dedicated departmental payroll clerk had little in common with a cook/payroll clerk out on the ice - not even the structure of their pay.
DMB said:I think we'll alway disagree on this?
I think we have related but very different experience bases - FL needs to value both to get the best product.
DMB said:They know exactly what Xnman knows (and more).
Someone knows what Xnman knows?!!!
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
It does seem to be unfair in the context of this discussion, which it seems to me, is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Facebook, but an insistence on the use of the Enter key when it is inappropriate.
I am ready to criticise, yea even mock Faithlife for some of their failings. Indeed, in their position, I would take action and disable the Enter key when the focus is on the Go box thereby ensuring everyone clicked on at least one option from the drop-down menu.
Factbook may or may not be a dog's breakfast but if it intrudes on one's workflow in this situation, it really is a self inflicted injury.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:DMB said:
But yes, you are a bad Logosian. Good Logosians can question Logos for 2-3 posts before expressing agreement that Logos is absolutely perfect. Smiling.
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
It does seem to be unfair in the context of this discussion, which it seems to me, is not about the usefulness or otherwise of Facebook, but an insistence on the use of the Enter key when it is inappropriate.
I am ready to criticise, yea even mock Faithlife for some of their failings. Indeed, in their position, I would take action and disable the Enter key when the focus is on the Go box thereby ensuring everyone clicked on at least one option from the drop-down menu.
Factbook may or may not be a dog's breakfast but if it intrudes on one's workflow in this situation, it really is a self inflicted injury.
Well, to be honest, Mike, I don't participate in 'micro-aggressions' ... aggressive is aggressive. And I assume you could tell it's reverse-humor ... which is also in the OT by the way. Now for aggression, last night, a young deer stopped by for water in our pond (we're high desert). You could see his ribs. But you could also see he got tangled up with a cat (mountain lion). But he was still enjoying the evening. Life is good.
I'm not sure why you think a UI interface is 'self-inflicted' when poorly designed. What's worse, it's the entry for new users (go-box). I think Xnian's comments were a good point, concerning the next update.
BTW, if you're curious about the 'dog', the quote from Dan, was that Logos staff needs to 'run with the big dogs'.
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Mike Binks said:
DMB, Is this, I wonder, what is seems to be emerging as a 'micro-aggression'? It is stereotyping and not supported by the evidence.
Do you really want to open this up to where the “micro-aggressions” began in this thread? I’d say that’s the kind of comment that could start a flame war.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
I would agree
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I would agree.
Thompson Chain Reference Bible has the best cross reference I have seen. Love it.
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Let me re-state and clarify...
It appears to me that Factbook is a "hopeful useful" additive to "try" to help alleviate the inabilities of Search. Such is the same truths about some of the guides and such. If Search worked well... a lot of those "additives" would not be needed. And I would suggest to FL that time be spent to make Search a "GREAT" function in Logos so that it is the "main" go-to when looking for something. I think that's simple enough.... Why have millions of resources if I cannot find something in them? Or why have a Bible program that allows me to have millions of resources and yet I have to go outside the program to find things I am stuying on? I have yet to understand that logic...
As to Factbook... When I have used it... I spend as much time "trying to get it to find something" as I do in Search.... (time is important) and so I eventually give up... go to another search engine... find what I am looking for and continue with my study. Sooo....
My questions to all you ... Prefaced with... with all your arguments to me about that I should conform and blindly accept whatever the "Great Logos" puts out.. (which by the way, I don't do... I refuse to drink the coo-aid....) Of which these questions are valid.....
1. Do you really think... Logos Search is so "perfect" that it cannot be improved?
2. Are you so "Logoized" that you are not even willing to look to making things with Search better?
3. Does you coming down on others in a condescending way... such that they (me) do conform and shout the praises of Logos... ? To this I would say and have said, I like Logos... but just think Search doesn't do the job...
All I have tried to do... is show (which I have if you read this thread...) that Search is not working for some searches and needs improving...
--- I've stated straight-out I think Search is so "categorized" by FL that FL hunts to pick a place where my search would go...if it doesn't fit the categories FL has pre-determined. The result of which... I have to learn "hieroglyphics" and the way FL thinks about something in order for me to be able to find something I am looking for. I think this is a hindrance to the Search function...
And I don't like Factbook coming up unless I choose to use it to do so .... simply because I have not found it to be useful... It is like Search...
Not trying to offend anyone... but am trying to clarify my position.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
It appears to me that Factbook is a "hopeful useful" additive to "try" to help alleviate the inabilities of Search. Such is the same truths about some of the guides and such.
Okay, we are making progress. That is not how I see Factbook at all. Factbook, to me, appears to be an attempt to provide encyclopedic information about Bible topics in a modern (read Wikipedia) way. I don't relate it directly to search at all. However, we have previously established that you use "search" in a wider sense than I as you use it for what I would call "lookups". As to your reference to guides, I think of them as saving me the extra steps of creating complex searches that are frequently requested by users. Several of these searches require direct queries against the SQL databases and cannot be recreated through the Search function. The Guides keep Logos from simply being databases against which one runs SQL queries and run logical merges on the results.
xnman said:And I would suggest to FL that time be spent to make Search a "GREAT" function in Logos so that it is the "main" go-to when looking for something.
The average user is more interested in the data being at their fingertips, I believe - otherwise they would build a database and use SQL queries. It is my observation from the way in which users ask how to build searches, that many users lack the skills necessary to define their queries, let alone build them in SQL. That is the reason behind the search extensions such as labels ... to allow users to find information in terms that are meaningful to them. For example, how would you build a query based on the Bible text alone, to find all the miracles in the Bible? I can't imagine doing it without the use of graphs (networks, webs ... whatever term is familiar to you) and artificial intelligence techniques/natural language processing techniques.
xnman said:Why have millions of resources if I cannot find something in them?
Without concrete examples, I can't answer this question. I have been trying for weeks to understand why you have so much difficulty and made one break-through based on your example of Moses' wife. As long as you post generalities rather than specific examples, I fear I may get no further in finding the missing piece that makes Logos so frustrating for you.
xnman said:with all your arguments to me about that I should conform and blindly accept whatever the "Great Logos" puts out.
You misunderstand. My position is that one must learn to use the software as it is designed to be used before you can begin customizing it to use as you wish to use it. To do otherwise, will result only in frustration -- trying to get tools to do things they are not designed to do rather than finding if there is a tool that meets your needs.
xnman said:1. Do you really think... Logos Search is so "perfect" that it cannot be improved?
Of course not, and I have said nothing that implied this.
xnman said:2. Are you so "Logoized" that you are not even willing to look to making things with Search better?
Of course not, which is why I endlessly document it, learn its quirks, make concrete suggestions for improvement ... PS. I hope I am Verbumized not Logosized.
xnman said:3. Does you coming down on others in a condescending way... such that they (me) do conform and shout the praises of Logos... ?
In person, I have never been accused of being condescending. On the contrary, I am someone who people are comfortable sharing difficult experiences with - things they share with neither their doctor nor their pastor, I hear spontaneously.
On the other hand, I fail to see how any of your questions move us forwards either in understanding your difficulties with the search or in creating concrete suggestions for improvement of the Search. Aren't those the actual purpose of this discussion?
xnman said:I think Search is so "categorized" by FL that FL hunts to pick a place where my search would go...if it doesn't fit the categories FL has pre-determined. The result of which... I have to learn "hieroglyphics" and the way FL thinks about something in order for me to be able to find something I am looking for.
This is true for the tagging that replaces natural language processing graphs (graphs in the mathematical sense). But this should be a small portion of your work. Did I misunderstand when I believed that basic searches were the problem? Can you give some examples?
xnman said:And I don't like Factbook coming up unless I choose to use it to do so
It doesn't ... and as long as you think it does, I'll think "Houston, we have a problem in the chair-to-keyboard interface. Corrective action needed."
xnman said:simply because I have not found it to be useful.
What specifically have you tried finding in Factbook? Concrete examples please. Note: I rarely use Factbook because it makes no attempt to cover the subject matter I am most interested in. That doesn't mean I don't recognize its value for other lines of inquiry.
xnman said:Not trying to offend anyone
I know no one on the forums who is so invested in the software as to take offense at valid criticism of its shortcomings. That is not the issue at hand. The issue is that you are clearly frustrated at your inability to get the information you want through Logos. To help you, we need concrete examples of your difficulties and a willingness on your part to accept guidance, at least on a temporary basis, on how to successfully use Logos to meet your needs. Once you understand one way that Logos is designed to provide the information, you are then free to choose your own path.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you MJ... I appreciate your point of view. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Not trying to offend anyone... but am trying to clarify my position.
That helps - and I too find the search facility hard to use and not very productive when I do.
However the only item on your hit list of improvements that I have been discussing is
"11. Stop Factbook from opening every time when I try to type in "Go Box" or Search. If I want Factbook open... let me choose to do so and don't force it on me. (I don't use Factbook... it doesn't help me find anything and now it is a nuisance or a "make work interruptus" in that I have to stop and close it)."
It is the opening of Facebook every time one types in the Go box that I claim is an 'self inflicted injury' based on an instinctive desire to press Enter rather than select a useful entry from the drop-down menu.
My posts have not been intended to deal with any of the other, more serious faults with the search system. I do not want the developers spending time dealing with a non-problem when there are so many really useful things that they could be fixing.
I have suggested that they disable the Enter key when the Go box is in use however I really don't want them even spending time to do that.
In my, not very extensive, testing I find that Factbook does not open when I type in the Go box.
and I could skip it should I wish. Incidentally clicking on the first entry leads me here...
Clicking on the Read more link gives me...
And my question is answered in three clicks.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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xnman said:
Thank you MJ... I appreciate your point of view.
But you still haven't provided specific examples of Search that you find so difficult. Screenshots of a Search would help, together with an explanation of what you are trying to accomplish.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mike Binks said:
However the only item on your hit list of improvements that I have been discussing is
"11. Stop Factbook from opening every time when I try to type in "Go Box" or Search. If I want Factbook open... let me choose to do so and don't force it on me. (I don't use Factbook... it doesn't help me find anything and now it is a nuisance or a "make work interruptus" in that I have to stop and close it)."
It is the opening of Facebook every time one types in the Go box that I claim is an 'self inflicted injury' based on an instinctive desire to press Enter rather than select a useful entry from the drop-down menu.
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up. So, I wouldn't say "self-inflicted injury." I'd say having Logos 10 allowing a setting to choose whether "Search" or "Factbook" coming up first would be a better way to do things.
The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook.
I find when opening resources, my most common use of the GO box, I often have to wait for the correct option to come up -- none of the initial suggestions are Factbook. They are alternative resources or locations to open to. That is why I keep asking for the logic to always first take a valid complete command as I have entered it. If Factbook is still your first options to show, that implies that you request Factbook more frequently than other options. If that statement is not true, then we need to document how to reproduce the bug for Faithlife to repair.
David Wanat said:The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
How I would put it:"xnman saying 'the current system doesn't work the way I want it to. I don't want to learn how to work with the system as designed. I won't provide specifics. I am frustrated as all-get-out and frustrated that people want to help rather than sympathize.'" Looking back through many of the threads including xnman's concerns, I find actual examples are as scarce as hens' teeth. Unfortunately, until he provides concrete examples, he has exceeded my ability to believe I can provide any effective help. I am never happy leaving someone asking for help no better off than when they asked in the forum but I see no alternative.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Unfortunately, I don’t think your answer refuted my characterization. Rather it confirmed it. So, I’ll be dropping out of further comments on this topic on the thread, waiting for the topic to shift.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
Unfortunately, I don’t think your answer refuted my characterization.
Unfortunately? A common form of argumentation aims to argue to a consensus. Alternative perspectives need not imply refutation.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Doesn't this wait depend on the speed of ones processor? My system took 3 seconds to produce the options for 'Mud'. How does that compare with seeking out a resource and running an inline search. BTW the Lexham Bible Dictionary doesn't seem to have an article on Mud ;-)
David Wanat said:The debate does strike me as xnman saying "the current system inconveniences me" and being told, "then do it differently" can lead to the frustration he expressed.
There comes a time when the guy who regularly goes into the workshop complaining that when he pushes the break pedal his car slows down get short shift from the mechanic who has told him often enough that if he doesn't want his car to slow down not to push the enter key brake pedal.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Hmn ... what do you do at a train station where trains going in different directions stop while you are standing at the platform wanting to get in the train that will take you to where you want to go? Do you just enter the first train that stops without checking that it is actually the train you want to use? Who would be to blame for you entering a train you did not want to use?
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....[:(]Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Ok.... back to the future.... MJ... look up "kings of northern kingdom" in Search....
I thought then... and think now... that's a good example.... And like I have asked.... why keep paying (high dollars) for a program that does not work with me and only works the way PHD's in hieroglyphics knows how to use it?
As to Factbook... Ok ... the "Shift pause Enter" does work... I admit... I wasn't patient.... but still the thought exists of what Logos is trying to do with Factbook...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
MJ... look up "kings of northern kingdom" in Search....
Not MJ but when I carry out that search I get the results below:
This shows that I have two resources that contain that exact phrase. And I think that's a valid result for that particular search.
But I don't expect that is the sort of result you are looking for.
So to help me understand further, please clarify what you are hoping to find. It might be that simply providing that particular string is not the best way to do it, or it might be that Logos isn't set up to give you the specific information you are interested in. But without knowing what type of results you are looking for it's impossible to know.
Are you, for example, looking for:
- a list of these kings (and their dates)
- a chart showing their relationship to each other
- detailed information about their lives
- etc
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....
New MBP with ample memory, latest Verbum, empty workspace, 11 secs to open menu. Sounds like a new train station is in order.
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Graham Criddle said:
Not MJ but when I carry out that search I get the results below:
I tried it out without the quotes, and then 'Ranked'. Got a lot of 'the's' and 'of's'. I really wonder, after so many years. I could understand 'Count'.
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Graham Criddle said:
Not MJ but when I carry out that search I get the results below:
Graham.... Not trying to be sarcastic or anything.... I have stated and do state I appreciate everyone'e help... but notice this.... I go to Logos Search
and this is what I get...
Notice also in the print out above.... my resource "The Good News Translation" [Edit: I thought I saw The Good News Translation in your print out.... but maybe not] ... does not appear like it does in yours... which, as I have stated more than once.... implies to me that Search is not searching all my resources.... which hurst my confidence in Search....
So.... I go to Google.... same search...
In about 2 seconds....I had a chart (I only printed part of the chart here) .... but the whole chart was there... that gave me information about the kings..... now, if I want to dig further into the kings... I can re-do my search and do so.... but if I don't want to dig further.... I can now proceed with my Bible study and be done with searching.
Now.... In Logos Search.... I have to "jump thru hoops" ... try to decipher hieroglyphics.. maybe even ask you on the forum... and maybe pray in all that.... to try and find an answer in my resources... and as I showed earlier.... I have such a comparable chart in my resources...
Now... I think all that I have to do with Logos, is what I call "make work interruptus" as it causes me to change my focus from my Bible study... to studying Logos Search.... which because of that.... I am using (Logos Search) less and less and going to "outside Logos" for searches.
Which (in my mind at least) I have the "million dollar" (means high priced) program that has one of the main functions that I need to be not used...
My need is that I need to search my resources and do it "conveniently" that I can stay focused on Bible study and not have to change focus to learn how programmers in Logos think or take a course in PHD to find it. (No offense meant to the programmers).
As to Factbook..... I don't use it as I don't find it actually works for me in finding things I search for..... so why am I pestered with it? Why can't I just have a setting and "turn it off" and go on my merry way? As I have stated.... I didn't like Microsoft doing that with Internet Explorer... which I never used.... I didn't like that "concept" of the program that I am paying for "forcing" something like Factbook on me...
I know, I know.... it's all my fault.... but I just think there is a better way. I like Logos... I need something like Logos and I really want to learn Logos... but with Search I spend way too much of my time learning and re-learning how to use Logos Search to find simple things.... I don't appreciate that... period!
I'm not trying to be mean or offensive in any way.... but as you will find out.... I am persistent to a fault. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DMB said:Wolfgang Schneider said:
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....
New MBP with ample memory, latest Verbum, empty workspace, 11 secs to open menu. Sounds like a new train station is in order.
Well, when I start up my Logos, then go to make a cup of coffee or tea and return to my computer, the Logos train has already been waiting for me a lot longer than even 11 seconds to get into my seat ... [;)]
Wolfgang Schneider
(BibelCenter)
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Wolfgang Schneider said:
Well, when I start up my Logos, then go to make a cup of coffee or tea and return to my computer, the Logos train has already been waiting for me a lot longer than even 11 seconds to get into my seat ...
We'll add a coffee maker to 'System Requirements' for Logos.[;)]
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Wolfgang Schneider said:David Wanat said:
The other side is needing to wait for the results to come up for an option other than Factbook. I've learned that I have to wait. But I'd rather not have to wait for the other options to come up.
Hmn ... what do you do at a train station where trains going in different directions stop while you are standing at the platform wanting to get in the train that will take you to where you want to go? Do you just enter the first train that stops without checking that it is actually the train you want to use? Who would be to blame for you entering a train you did not want to use?
For some reason, a < 5 seconds wait for the software to list the many options available plus 2 seconds to put cursor on desired option appears too much for some these days ....Review “strawman fallacy.”
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
xnman said:
I go to Logos Search and this is what I get..
This is basically the same as mine. I had deselected the option to "match all word forms" in the panel menu which is why I only got results with "kings of" as opposed to "king of".
xnman said:The Good News Translation" does not appear like it does in yours... which, as I have stated more than once.... implies to me that Search is not searching all my resources.... which hurst my confidence in Search....
We showed the results differently because my search window was set to By resource (where the full title of the resource is shown) as opposed to Ranked (which shows the abbreviated title). The different titles are shown below:
So there is nothing here that indicates your Search is not working. And I don't recall seeing specific examples where that was the case - as opposed to it not returning the results you were hoping for. If you do find some, please start a new thread and show that clearly as that would be concerning.
xnman said:So.... I go to Google.... same search...
This is really what I was trying to understand - as it looks as though you were looking for some form of chart, which wasn't clear to me from your original question.
xnman said:Now.... In Logos Search.... I have to "jump thru hoops" ... try to decipher hieroglyphics.. maybe even ask you on the forum... and maybe pray in all that.... to try and find an answer in my resources... and as I showed earlier.... I have such a comparable chart in my resources...
It does involve doing the right sort of search in the right place - so searching for a Table in a Media Search should do the job:
I know that involves being aware of the different search options. Personally I value the precision available in Logos for this sort of thing but I do recognise it does require a bit more work.
xnman said:As to Factbook..... I don't use it as I don't find it actually works for me in finding things I search for..... so why am I pestered with it?
I don't see how this is relevant to a discussion on Search - they are different things.
xnman said:I am persistent to a fault.
Persistence is great - but, personally for me to be able to offer any suggestions about how to use Logos better it needs clarity about what a user is seeking to do.
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xnman, you know I feel ya, but did you bother to select the Outline first listed in your search? I think you might be surprised with what you find. Logos works. You've got to work it.xnman said:Graham.... Not trying to be sarcastic or anything.... I have stated and do state I appreciate everyone'e help... but notice this.... I go to Logos Search
and this is what I get...
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.2 1TB SSD
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Beloved Amodeo said:
I think you might be surprised with what you find.
That's a great point
Thank you, I missed that.
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Graham.... I think... I have shown that Logos Search ... 1. Is not easy to use. 2. That Logos Search could be easier.
I think I have shown that (by example) with the Google Search and the Logos Search both searching for the same thing....
I didn't "grow up" with Logos Search..... I "grew up" in other Bible programs that had searches that worked for me... I don't have to "be loyal" to something that causes me grief to try to find something to help me study the Bible.
Thanks to everyone that has tried to help me with this issue.
Defense rests. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Beloved Amodeo said:
xnman, you know I feel ya, but did you bother to select the Outline first listed in your search? I think you might be surprised with what you find. Logos works. You've got to work it.
Beloved.... I did not.... and I missed it. Thanks for pointing it out.... That does work...
Edit: What started this "kings thing" was that I was looking for how Pekahiah died... and the "Outline that I completely overlooked" and which stated my rant.... actually shows that...
I apologized for my rant.
Thanks.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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