Is Verbum really Catholic?

I don't think Verbum 9 changed the needle on the "Catholicness" from Verbum 8 although the Verbum product is a bit more Catholic than the Libronix Catholic edition. As a Catholic I was taught this maxim ... Lutheran publishers for Bible studies, Anglican publishers for liturgy, Catholic publishers for theology, and Orthodox publishers for patristics (and liturgy). So seminaries didn't teach me to judge "catholicness" by the source of resources. I think of Verbum as ACELO i.e. catholic (small c) - (high)Anglican, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, (high)Lutheran, Oriental Orthodox. but produced by a quintessentially American home-grown evangelicalism.

I feel strongly that most Bible study tools should be theologically independent - that theology belongs a step up in hermeneutics so I shouldn't be able to tell a Protestant tool from a Catholic tool. But yes, that is not always what Faithlife provides. We can affect Factlbook's choice of key articles by prioritizing our preferred reference works and by reporting factual errors.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144189#Comment_1144189

Thank you for your reply.

Well i am interested in Catholic exegesis, liturgy, etc mainly. I studied theology too (in Romania) and learned that there are many differences between the various Christian Churches. So, that's why i asked that question, because ecumenical studies are not my primary concern.

I understood, as i mentioned in my post, that the Factbook cannot be changed, but what you are telling me is very good news.

Happy Christmas Holidays & God bless you!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144189#Comment_1144189

I feel strongly that most Bible study tools should be theologically independent - that theology belongs a step up in hermeneutics so I shouldn't be able to tell a Protestant tool from a Catholic tool.

I feel strongly, if Faithlife markets a Catholic product to Catholics (in general), then the product should meet the description (whatever Catholics expect). Or let their Catholic customer know they're offering a largely Protestant update, so the customer can decide.

Granted, in the early days of L4, my definition of honesty was not Bob's (no offense intended).

Mark Nolette

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144204#Comment_1144204

Yes, it would be better if Factbook could be so customized. If enough customers request this, it may happen. (Hint, hint!!)

In the meantime, you can do what I have done and set up a custom layout - or series of layouts - that will do what you want with the resources you specify. It's a little more work up front, but once done, it's well worth the time.

Fr Devin Roza

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144253#Comment_1144253

Factbook does modify its content based on your prioritization.

Donald Antenen (Logos)

We've set Factbook in Verbum to prioritize Catholic reference works (e.g. The Catholic Encyclopedia, just released, and Sacramentum Mundi). There was a delay in releasing the former and connecting the latter to Factbook, so that explains some of the lag in these showing up.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144199#Comment_1144199

because ecumenical studies are not my primary concern

Please don't misunderstand ... my point was not ecumenical but scholarly - I want the best scholarship available and much of the best is non-sectarian.

TL Putnam

Br. Anastasie,

Thank you for commenting. We're working hard to prioritize Catholic resources in Factbook 2.0 for Verbum users. With the upcoming release of the Catholic Encyclopedia, you should see a significant shift in the results you're getting.

As always, if you see something that doesn't seem to fit, let us know. Our goal is for this to be a useful tool for Catholics.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144204#Comment_1144204

I feel strongly, if Faithlife markets a Catholic product to Catholics (in general), then the product should meet the description (whatever Catholics expect).

Unfortunate much of American Catholicism, many American Catholics don't recognize as Catholic ... and some South Americans come to the US and wonder if the Catholic Church has anything to do with the Church as they know it. In addition, with the multiplicity of rites, there really is no uniform liturgy or expression of theology that is "Catholic" ... some are nearly identical to the Eastern or Oriental Orthodox, some veer towards the traditional Western expression. Which is why I firmly hold that a truly Catholic product meets the needs of the ACELO churches.

And yes, I remember waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for the first Catholic edition of Libronix, And guessing how much they hadn't understood when they started the project.

If Verbum is "Catholic" (in opposition to Logos), shouldn't also the tools it offers be based on Catholic teaching/theology?

When those tools differ from what is offered in Logos, they are, e.g., the Catholic Topical Index and the pre-created Collections (Catechisms, Chruch Documents, & Church Fathers). Likewise, the Verbum 360 training videos.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144437#Comment_1144437

Thank you very much for your replies to my question! Great to see such a lively forum for a great software!

I decided to post the question after i was doing a study of the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew using the Factbook and i didn't understand why the main results, or main article (or how is it called) was primarily from the Anchor Yale Dictionary. Also there were articles suggested from The Oxford Bible Dictionary and some Lexham resource. What really surprised me is that the Catholic Bible Dictionary (one of my favorite resource) wasn't listed, even though it had articles on every name/topic i searched for. Also i have other Catholic resources that i use on my PC and i would really like to first search them, and after i could also check what Protestant authors say.

As a Catholic i want and need the Catholic resources first, just as a Protestant brother wouldn't like Catholic books popping up in his searches). I think this is just common sense, not a "sectarian" view.

I learned both from the Faculty of Theology and from my personal studies (including American theologians/exegetes like Scott Hahn, Brant Pitre, etc, and especially fr. John Behr - an Orthodox priest) that you can't separate the Scriptures from dogmatics, Sacraments, etc. This is not about being sectarian, but of really deepen the Faith (for the Catholic faith) in all of its aspects, teachings, history, etc. But maybe this is not the place for this discussion [:D]

Also thank you for the idea of making different layouts!!! Sounds great.

I wish you a blessed holiday of the birth of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! I attach my best wishes here!

Praying for you,

br. Anastasie

[PS:The interactive tools were they curated for Catholics or are just imported from Logos?]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145229#Comment_1145229

PS: its interesting to see that also Bible Translations are influenced by the translators theology...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145230#Comment_1145230

PS: its interesting to see that also Bible Translations are influenced by the translators theology...

How true!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145229#Comment_1145229

I decided to post the question after i was doing a study of the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew using the Factbook and i didn't understand why the main results, or main article (or how is it called) was primarily from the Anchor Yale Dictionary. Also there were articles suggested from The Oxford Bible Dictionary and some Lexham resource. What really surprised me is that the Catholic Bible Dictionary (one of my favorite resource) wasn't listed, even though it had articles on every name/topic i searched for. Also i have other Catholic resources that i use on my PC and i would really like to first search them, and after i could also check what Protestant authors say.

--

Ah, what you really needed to know was how to use prioritization to make your Verbum behave in a way that favored Catholic resources and how to affect the order in which Faithlife tags/aligns/curates resources for appearing in Factbook. The recent release of the Catholic Encyclopedia put it as a primary source of key articles ... above my prioritized resources.

[PS:The interactive tools were they curated for Catholics or are just imported from Logos?]

They are the standard FL products i.e. built by people on the Logos side of the company. The specifically Catholic items are Catholic Topical Index, and Saints.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144320#Comment_1144320

It must be said that your firmly held position contravenes Pope Leo XIII's Testem benevolentiae of 1899, condemning “Americanism” in its religious indifferentism and its resistance to acceptance of the Church’s external authority, among other things.
Then there is the One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism thing, you know, Ephesians 4:5. And all that false teaching and false teachers stuff all over the N.T.
Of course, the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisterium in previous to Vatican II, is also admonishes such a, shall we say, protestantized view of Catholicism.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144189#Comment_1144189

It must be said that your firmly held position contravenes Pope Leo XIII's Testem benevolentiae of 1899, condemning “Americanism” it its religious indifferentism and a resistance to acceptance of the Church’s external authority, among other things.
Then there is the One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism thing, you know, Ephesians 4:5.
Of course, the Ordinary and Extraordinary Magisterium in previous to Vatican II, is also admonishes such a, shall we say, protestanized view of Catholicism.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145406#Comment_1145406

It must be said that

Actually, given the official Forum Guidelines for the Faithlife Forums, of which this is one, it is not the case that this must be said in this forum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145292#Comment_1145292

"They are the standard FL products i.e. built by people on the Logos side of the company. The specifically Catholic items are Catholic Topical Index, and Saints."

Regarding "specifically Catholic Items (CTI, Saints), they are rather lacking (even shamedly so) omissions; here are just two of MANY omissions and neglects that any Catholic product or producer should be humilitated by:
Saints, Verbum, Bellingham, WA 2013.

Missing the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, 8 December from the Article on our Lady, (Blessed) "Virgin Mary":

Feast Days
January 1 (Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God)
February 11 (Our Lady of Lourdes)
May 13 (Our Lady of Fatima)
May 31 (Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary)
July 16 (Our Lady of Mount Carmel)
August 15 (Assumption of the Blessed Virgin)
August 22 (Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary)
September 8 (Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary)
September 12 (Most Holy Name of the Blessed Virgin Mary)
September 15 (Our Lady of Sorrows)
October 7 (Our Lady of the Rosary)
November 21 (Presentation of the Virgin Mary)
December 12 (Our Lady of Guadalupe)
December 30 (Holy Family)
March 25 (The Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary)*
July 2 (Visitation of the Blessed Virgin Mary)*
September 24 (The Blessed Virgin Mary of Mercy)*
November 21 (Presentation of the Blessed Virgin Mary)*

Saints. (2013). Bellingham, WA: Verbum.

I submitted this offending omission of a Marian DOGMA on 8 December, 2018. Nothing. NADA.

How is it that the Catholic Topical Index has NOTHING on Redemptive Suffering (Acts 14:22; Heb 12:7, 11; Ps 119:67,71; Isa 38:17; Jn 15:2; 1Pe 1:6-7; 2Co 4:10; Col 1:24 See also Ps 126:5-6; 1Co 4:9-13; 2Co 1:3-5; Gal 4:19; Php 3:18; Col 2:1; 2Ti 1:11-12; 1Pe 4:19; Ro 5:3-4; Heb 5:8; Jas 1:3, etc.)?
My V-Library has 183 references in 162 resources in 128 articles. The much vaunted Factbook has 36 entries.

Redemptive Suffering is a doctrine exhorted by Saint after Saint, Pope after Pope. But the CTI acts like its just not there, not Catholic.

The Monk's Question is rightly reasoned. And Verbum needs to get it's act together.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145408#Comment_1145408

Huh? Perhaps you could be good as to edify me in my ignorance and reference what you have proscripted me with; perhaps a quote, link, or reference.

I assure you my transgression was unintentional and I hope not to repeat it... if you would edify me as to your hit upon me.

Mea Culpa. I ask forgiveness for my unintentional offense.

Doc B

i was wondering how "Catholic" is the new Factbook tool

Interesting question, but then, from the perspective of a non-RC (reformed) believer, it doesn't appear your Pope is, either. If he stays in office much longer, none of the magisterium or tradition materials will be valid anyway, so Factbook may be your best bet at that point (tongue slightly in cheek). It can't be easy to be a traditional RC right now and those folks have my sympathy.

From the point of the intent of the OP, your point is well-taken. Even though I don't hold to that tradition, I agree with your expectations about the Verbum software.

Donald Antenen (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145414#Comment_1145414

Let's stick to the forum rules, please.

The Saints resource is on our list of resources in need of a lot of updating. My goal is to connect it to this resource: https://verbum.com/product/150264/the-book-of-saints and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Thank you all for the suggestions.

Donald Antenen (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145413#Comment_1145413

Huh? Perhaps you could be good as to edify me in my ignorance and reference what you have proscripted me with; perhaps a quote, link, or reference.

I assure you my transgression was unintentional and I hope not to repeat it... if you would edify me as to your hit upon me.

Mea Culpa. I ask forgiveness for my unintentional offense.

Here are the forum rules: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/94743.aspx

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145414#Comment_1145414

Interesting question, but then, from the perspective of a non-RC (reformed) believer, it doesn't appear your Pope is, either. If he stays in office much longer, none of the magisterium or tradition materials will be valid anyway, so Factbook may be your best bet at that point (tongue slightly in cheek). It can't be easy to be a traditional RC right now and those folks have my sympathy.

Entirely inaccurate and uncalled for under the forum rules.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145414#Comment_1145414

Interesting question, but then, from the perspective of a non-RC (reformed) believer, it doesn't appear your Pope is, either. If he stays in office much longer, none of the magisterium or tradition materials will be valid anyway, so Factbook may be your best bet at that point (tongue slightly in cheek). It can't be easy to be a traditional RC right now and those folks have my sympathy.

Pardon me, Doc B., but your ignorance is showing. Priests consistently put me in the conservative camp - so conservative as to be positively Mediaeval i.e. truly traditional not the mislabeled traditional of some media. I would be glad to.suggest materials that would cure your ignorance and be available to answer any questions you might have. Also note I do not identify as Roman rite Catholic but as the more inclusive Catholic (capital C) that includes all the rites of the Western, Eastern, and Oriental Catholic united churches. I am also careful not to make more distinctions between my Catholic faith and other faiths than the Church itself does.

The OP has a legitimate concern but with a handful of exceptions, one needs to know (a) the contents of his library, (b) the status of the dictionary updates by Faithlife, and the prioritization of resource both user-set and Verbum defaults. Then one can genuinely assess the appropriate level of concern.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145430#Comment_1145430

Check. Thank you for pointing out to me my error.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144313#Comment_1144313

We've set Factbook in Verbum to prioritize Catholic reference works (e.g. The Catholic Encyclopedia, just released, and Sacramentum Mundi).

I have a reasonably large very mixed up library [theology wise]. If I run a search of everything with 'set Verbum to yes' and then run the same search with 'set Verbum to no' do I get the same results just in different orders?

[[Also please remember to let us know when we need to install both Verbum and Logos as the 'set Verbum to' switch no longer does the full to or from Verbum 'thing'. Have Verbum installed on one PC and Logos on the other but often use the 'set Verbum' switch on either.]]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145292#Comment_1145292

_______"Ah, what you really needed to know was how to use prioritization to make your Verbum behave in a way that favored Catholic resources and how to affect the order in which Faithlife tags/aligns/curates resources for appearing in Factbook. The recent release of the Catholic Encyclopedia put it as a primary source of key articles ... above my prioritized resources."

---

Yes, thank you very much for your reply!
That is what i wanted to know and do in Verbum!

I have another question: when the new software was launched, the Verbum website said that the Factbook is powered by the Catholic Encyclopedia, but the Encyclopedia is, as you said, recently released. So its an optional update that i have to purchase or it will be available for free with Verbum 9?

And is the Verbum staff thinking of editing/updating/modifying the Logos interactive tools for Catholics?

I will look in the technical details you described!

PS: i also want to say that Verbum is a great software and i am very happy that i have such a tool at my disposition! And yes, i've learned that i have a lot to learn about using the software Happy New Year in God's peace everybody!!!

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145835#Comment_1145835

Shalom and blessing from the Lord our God for 2021!

I have another question: when the new software was launched, the Verbum website said that the Factbook is powered by the Catholic Encyclopedia, but the Encyclopedia is, as you said, recently released. So its an optional update that i have to purchase or it will be available for free with Verbum 9?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is included in Verbum 9 Silver (and higher). I have bought Verbum Ultimate (even though I am actually a calvinist) and the resource downloaded automatically upon release.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145839#Comment_1145839

Thank you for your greetings and blessing!

I upgraded to Verbum 9 from Verbum 8 and i have all the features (but no V9 library) of the new software but the Catholic Encyclopedia doesn't show in my library.

I just visited verbum.com and logged in... i searched for the Encyclopedia and it says i have to buy it...

What should i do?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145840#Comment_1145840

i searched for the Encyclopedia and it says i have to buy it... What should i do?

Simple answer is Buy It. Or find the funds for one of the packages that it is in. [I upgraded to silver then to gold because that, for me, was the cheapest way to get the three new key Verbum resources. Your path may be different. Please review the packages and see what value they will have for you. And happy new year! [And let us know what you do and maybe more important why you did it.]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145846#Comment_1145846

Thank you for your advice!

Sorry, i didn't understand : "[And let us know what you do and maybe more important why you did it.]"

Where you reffering to the post or to buying the Catholic Encyclopedia?

I am Romanian and my English is limited...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145847#Comment_1145847

If your question is related to what i said above that i have all the V9 features, but no V9 litbrary, the answer is because i bought V8 Gold Catholic library some weeks before V9 was launched and the Verbum Team graciously upgraded my software.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145848#Comment_1145848

If your question is related to what i said above that i have all the V9 features, but no V9 litbrary, the answer is because i bought V8 Gold Catholic library some weeks before V9 was launched and the Verbum Team graciously upgraded my software.

In this case it may be (but I'm not sure since the package content somewhat fluctuates over the releases) that the dynamic price of either Verbum 9 Silver International , Verbum 9 Academic Standard or Verbum 9 Ordinariate Silver is actually lower than the price for the catholic encyclopedia alone (I can't know the exact price for you, but it's worthwhile to check).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145847#Comment_1145847

Sorry, i didn't understand : "[And let us know what you do and maybe more important why you did it.]"

You are going to buy the Catholic Encyclopedia or not. The thought process that you go through to decide which path to take may be of use to others that examine the same problem [buy or not] And the three new works are: Sacramentum Mundi , the Catholic Encyclopedia and Liturgy of the Hours.

Sorry for not being more clear.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145851#Comment_1145851

Thank you David & NB. Mick for your advice. I will look into these interesting packages!!!

Being a Byzantine-Catholic/Greek Catholic i was looking into the Easter Rite section on Verbum, but sadly i don't have a compare resources section or that very useful drop down list of offered resources where i can hide the ones i already own...

I remember talking to someone at Verbum in August about this, but i see they didn't update the webpage.

This is the page:

https://verbum.com/eastern-rite-catholic

It has only the Add to cart button...

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145853#Comment_1145853

was looking into the Easter Rite section on Verbum, but sadly i don't have a compare resources section or that very useful drop down list of offered resources where i can hide the ones i already own... (...) This is the page: https://verbum.com/eastern-rite-catholic

This is only an overview page over several of the Eastern Rite Packages. You'll need to go to e.g. https://www.logos.com/product/195556/verbum-9-eastern-rite-gold to see the functionality you look for (and this package contains the Cath. Enc, too).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145856#Comment_1145856

Thank you!!!!!!!

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1145229#Comment_1145229

I decided to post the question after i was doing a study of the genealogy of Jesus in the Gospel according to Matthew using the Factbook and i didn't understand why the main results, or main article (or how is it called) was primarily from the Anchor Yale Dictionary. Also there were articles suggested from The Oxford Bible Dictionary and some Lexham resource. What really surprised me is that the Catholic Bible Dictionary (one of my favorite resource) wasn't listed, even though it had articles on every name/topic

Hi br. Anastasie:

I perfectly understand what you mean. When I try to find out different angles on a topic (from different perspectives [traditions, denominations]), I usually have to work around and use collections.

My approach is far from perfect, but many times is helpful.

When I do a collection to run a quick search, I do something like:

Type in the rule box in the collection being created: Catholic AND Type:Encyclopedia

That way I kind of get more Catholic oriented results. Usually in the resulting collection I have to add some favorite resources.

The same way happens when I want to look what Jewish resources say about a topic, etc.

Before we could get collections that were about particular packages, but has not happened in L9:

https://faithlife.com/logos-product-collections/documents

To make things worse, there are times where very important insights / clarifications, are given in Dictionaries from different traditions, that would not be associated with the particular topic, and that line up well with particular dogmatics.

Example:

"The most notable one was developed by Pope Gregory the Great in the sixth century. Pope Gregory asserted that all sins can be categorized into the perfect taxonomy."

Timpe, R. L. (1999). Gluttony. In D. G. Benner & P. C. Hill (Eds.), Baker encyclopedia of psychology & counseling (2nd ed., p. 514). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

Nice article very aligned with Catholic moral theology, but from an unlikely source.

So is frustrating, that to get to the very root angles from different traditions, denominations, one sometimes has to consult works from other traditions / denominations.

Sleuth work that I thought would be over after college. How wrong was I... LOL.

Peace and grace.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147114#Comment_1147114

Thank your very much, Hamilton!

I created collections of my fav resources and i will do the searching using those!

God bless you!

br. A.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147501#Comment_1147501

Hello everybody!

Following your advice i got the Catholic Encyclopedia. I looked at the different packages/libraries and i decided that for now the Catholic Encyclopedia is enough...

Thanks for all your help and God bless you!!!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1144313#Comment_1144313

We've set Factbook in Verbum to prioritize Catholic reference works (e.g. The Catholic Encyclopedia, just released, and Sacramentum Mundi). There was a delay in releasing the former and connecting the latter to Factbook, so that explains some of the lag in these showing up.

The latter is still not showing up.