New heavens and new earth?
Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22 say that new heavens and new earth will be created or made, but Psalm 148:5-6 say that the present heavens and earth will exist forever. Especially, the Hebrew verbs in the 2 verses in Psalm 148 are about completed action (i.e. the present heavens and earth are already completed and will never vanish). How can the former 2 verses reconcile with the latter 2 verse? Thank you for your help.
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Hi Theo. Interesting question! I think the forums are for Logos-related issues, not ‘content’ issues. So for example I would point you to the Passage Guide to see what it brings up. Or you could use the Factbook if you have that.
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Without speaking to your desire to reconcile authors, you're making assumptions about the hebrew nouns 'heavens' and 'earth', which in semitic usage are closer to land and skies (as a farmer might view it).
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St. Augustine interpreted the pronoun “them”(verse 6) in a spiritual way, referring not only to the highest heavens and the waters above heavens (in verse 4), nor also merely to the sun, moon and stars (in verse 3), but also to the angels and the hosts (in verse 2), i.e. the unseen world also. They all praise God - and it is easier to understand why the unseen world won't pass away?
Cassiodorus takes up your question here, referring to the resurrection. Same with The Commentary on the Psalms from Primitive and Mediæval Writers as pertaining to the resurrection.
Coming to our time and modern exegesis: John Goldingay scratches the surface of your question in his BCOT Commentary. So does Hassell Bullock in his Teach the Text Commentary. Both very briefly.
Hope this helps!
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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What website is the Passage Guide?
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Theo Lau said:
What website is the Passage Guide?
Not a website. Open Logos Bible Software. (1) Press on Guides. (2) Select Passage Guide.
Then (3) type the Bible Passage You're examining, in this case, Psalm 148:6:
Then enjoy and start examining the results! [:)]
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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Even though they mean land and skies, v. 6 says “He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree which will not pass away.” (NASB) Thus your view seems untenable. On the other hand, if the verbs in v. 5b-6 are translated as pure English past tense and mean God’s original intention (before human sinning), this seems more reasonable. But I don’t know we can do this way or not.
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Theo Lau said:
Thus your view seems untenable.
I haven't presented my view, only quoted others'. (This forum isn't the place to present personal views). Happy hunting! Logos is a powerful tool! (And welcome to the forums!) [:)]
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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Olli-Pekka Ylisuutari said:Theo Lau said:
What website is the Passage Guide?
Not a website. Open Logos Bible Software. (1) Press on Guides. (2) Select Passage Guide.
Then (3) type the Bible Passage You're examining, in this case, Psalm 148:6:
Passage Guide (PG) in desktop Logos (OR Verbum) can be duplicated (or open another one) so can have three PG's side by side:
Web Apps => https://app.logos.com and => https://app.verbum.com have Passage Guides.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Passage Guide (PG) in desktop Logos (OR Verbum) can be duplicated (or open another one) so can have three PG's side by side
Web Apps => https://app.logos.com and => https://app.verbum.com have Passage Guides.
Keep Smiling
Thank You for the clarification. [A]
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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Thanks for your help. Is there any website-forum for discussing Scriptures?
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Theo Lau said:
Thanks for your help. Is there any website-forum for discussing Scriptures?
Faithlife => https://faithlife.com has some groups that discuss scripture: e.g. Christian Debate => https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
Thankful for Jan Krohn creating https://www.christiandiscourse.net/ after the Faithlife web site christiandiscourse.com stopped responding.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Theo ... no offense intended, but 'forever' is a construct, ranging from 'a long time', to late-hebrew's presumed eternity. I think you're trying to get the text to support a theology (which is ok), but the text doesn't demand your indicated dissonance.
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DMB said:
Theo ... no offense intended, but 'forever' is a construct, ranging from 'a long time', to late-hebrew's presumed eternity. I think you're trying to get the text to support a theology (which is ok), but the text doesn't demand your indicated dissonance.
Try thinking about it like you would your kitchen. You could decide to get a "new kitchen"...make lots of changes, have it look very or completely different. Where is it? Well, it's still "in" your kitchen, same place it always was, and in many respects it is the same kitchen. "New", yet the same.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Could you give me references for my study? If possible, please also give me references on Scriptural words about REAL eternal sense and words that look like being about eternity but actually about LIMITED TIME. At present, I only found that the following source suits with real eternity interpretation, which says “eternal, for ever and ever, continual, always, i.e., an unlimited duration of time, without end, and without reference to other points or units of time (Ps 148:6)” [Swanson, Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Hebrew (Old Testament), s.v. 6329 I. עַד (ʿǎḏ)] But this source may be wrong if what you suggest is correct. Anyway, I want to study and learn more from you or anyone.
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From TLOT:
3. (a) The Eng. translation “eternity” used in the heading is inappropriate for a number of OT passages with ʿôlām, and, even when it seems appropriate, it may not be permitted to introduce a preconceived concept of eternity, burdened with all manner of later philosophical or theological content (cf. J. Schmidt, Der Ewigkeitsbegriff im AT [1940]; J. Barr, Biblical Words for Time [19692], 68ff., 86ff., 123ff., critical of C. von Orelli, Die hebr. Synonyma der Zeit und Ewigkeit genetisch und sprachvergleichend dargestellt [1871]).
Ernst Jenni and Claus Westermann, Theological Lexicon of the Old Testament (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers, 1997), 853.Generally, there is the sense of "beyond what you can see/know".
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
From TLOT:
it may not be permitted to introduce a preconceived concept of eternity, burdened with all manner of later philosophical or theological content.
Not taking a position regarding ”eternity” being without end (wiser people than me are needed here), but rather eternity without beginning. O. Palmer Robertson writes: “Though the idea of creation ex nihilo (out of nothing) might not be expressed in so many words, the concept is clearly present in the Psalms.”
In the psalm under investigation, here perhaps: “for he commanded and they were created”? (Ps.148:5, NRSV)?
This, of course, leaves the “eternity” without end -question unresolved... Personally I'm happy with the definition provided by David Paul: "beyond what you can see/know."
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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Theo Lau said:
please also give me references on Scriptural words about REAL eternal sense and words that look like being about eternity but actually about LIMITED TIME.
Not related to your request regarding the meaning of the word "eternal", but rather to the word "bounds" (same verse 6):
I did a BWS on the Hebrew word חֹק, ‘statute’, ordinance.’ According to the BWS it an also mean ‘bound’, even ‘set time’ (see BWS below):
as in Job 14:5,13. Might this be seen as having something to do with “limited time”? In Job 14:5,13 it does – with the limited days and months of mere mortals – and Job’s vague hope of "set time" for resurrection from Sheol in Job 14:13.
I am not 100% sure the same applies here. (I'm more a greek-guy than a hebrew-guy). Or is this interpretation only blurring the parallelism inherent in Psalm 148:6? In other words: is the only legitimate parallelism a synonymous one or perhaps a synthetic one – and not an anthithetical one?
A. R. Fausset explains the verse Psalm 148:6: “There can be no change but by His appointment. he hath made a decree which shall not pass. So respecting the sea (Job 38:10, 11), and respecting the extent of man’s life (Job 14:5). -- The “decree” is the order or sphere and law of being prescribed to all created things, which order does not pass or change so long as God wills it, nor until they have fulfilled the purpose assigned to them. The stars must pursue their course; the upper and lower waters must remain distinct.” (bolding mine).
Hossfeld & Zenger write in their Hermeneia Commentary: “That the psalm thus wishes to emphasize the eternity and immortality of creation is somewhat questionable; rather, this is about the enduring order and “lawfulness” with which Yhwh has endowed his world (cf. Gen 8:22*; Jer 31:35–36*; 33:25*; Job 28:26–27*; 38:33*).” (emphasis mine).
Some hebraist: Please help!
Check out my channel with Christian music in Youtube:@olli-pekka-pappi. Latest song added on Palm Sunday, April 13th 2025: Isaiah 53, The Suffering Servant of the Lord. Have a blessed Holy Week and Easter!
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Theo Lau said:
Isaiah 65:17 and 66:22 say that new heavens and new earth will be created or made, but Psalm 148:5-6 say that the present heavens and earth will exist forever. Especially, the Hebrew verbs in the 2 verses in Psalm 148 are about completed action (i.e. the present heavens and earth are already completed and will never vanish). How can the former 2 verses reconcile with the latter 2 verse? Thank you for your help.
You are asking good questions. I think what many are affirming is that while this is not a place to discuss theology, this is a place to learn how to use your library and Logos tools to investigate ideas. There are many tools and resources suggested or implied here that will be helpful. You are asking questions that touch on language use, literal/figurative, literature genre, interpretive approaches, theological and philosophical assumptions.
Logos not only offers base packages, but also "library expansion" (grouped in themes like "Gospel Studies" "Hebrew Studies" "Biblical Interpretation" etc. these might offer some resources for you.
Building up your commentary section will help give you "teachers" from a variety of passages you study and you can compare thinking. Dictionaries, like "Dict. of Biblical Imagery" "Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary" "Global Dictionary of Theology" will help you with brief articles on subjects and raise issues you may not have thought of. Journals will give you access to focused scriptural and thematic studies (journals like Themelios, Journal of Biblical Literature, etc).
Also look into the various video tutorials Logos offers to get to use your software, guides, tools more proficiently. Many are free and found on the Logos website.
I wish you well!
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David Paul said:
Try thinking about it like you would your kitchen. You could decide to get a "new kitchen"...make lots of changes, have it look very or completely different. Where is it? Well, it's still "in" your kitchen, same place it always was, and in many respects it is the same kitchen. "New", yet the same.
[Y] Good explanation/analogy
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Theo, following up on David Paul, but without going into the cultural development of 'eternity' and its fit into hebrew (Genesis, as an example of the concept in multiple hebrew words), just use your search of 'olem' in the OT. Then read it as indeed eternity (modern meaning). Then notice it swiftly destroys the complete NT. Then notice the prophets, Jesus, and Paul don't get excited about it ... ask why ... they're jewish ... know hebrew.
BTW, if you had the theological argument dataset, you could make quick work of this (Logos is still on plants and animals). Smiling.
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