Why do Verbumites pay the same as Logosians for a lesser product
- In general, reading plans, work flows, and similar smaller features are geared for the Logos side of the house. No problem if and only if Verbum slowly adds such features at a consistent rate. But for several years running, listing items for Verbum gets positive feedback and no visible progress
- I have no problem with there being differences between Logos and Verbum - Logos gets IgniterMedia and SermonAudio while Verbum gets Catholic Topic Index and predefined collections. I think the distinctions are appropriate. But I don't think it is appropriate that the content of a Guide is changed when I open a Logos Passage Guide in Verbum ... acknowledged as a bug many years ago but never changed.
- I do have a problem with differences that are not based on differences in need - why no help cards in Verbum? why no links to the Faithlife Logos groups? Verbum gets no equivalent but we pay for its development. I know unfair product treatment when I see it.
What was the final straw? . I noticed there is a "Discuss this feature" choice in the "ke-bob" menu for many panels, and I decided to use it the other day for a question I had, and got a quick response, and a notification of the response thru the Faithlife app on my phone, which I thought was nice. ... a feature denied Verbum for no discernable reason except discriminatory marketing. There is no justification for a "separate development" to hold water as the code between Logos and Verbum should have very limited differences on a common base.
If you consider my total investment in Faithlife starting with the first Catholic package (L2?], I think I've paid more than my fair share for features I don't have.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I use Logos, but I see the need for Verbum's customer base to be treated fairly, with the same features.
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- In general, reading plans, work flows, and similar smaller features are geared for the Logos side of the house. No problem if and only if Verbum slowly adds such features at a consistent rate. But for several years running, listing items for Verbum gets positive feedback and no visible progress
Question: Do these " features" get turned on and off by "set Verbum to yes" and "set Verbum to no"?
[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]
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I'm just here to agree. I use vanilla logos.
John 3:17 (ESV)
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.0 -
[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]
Correction: that is and long has been how one changes a Logos installation into a near mimic of a Verbum installation... one that has Help cards, unless something's changed recently.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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MJ, thanks for focusing on the disparate treatment between the Logos product and the Verbum product. I've been a user since the days of "Libronix". I took the Verbum route when it became available and I too have invested significant money in the Logos/Verbum product. I certainly want to echo MJs frustration with regards to the issues she has raised.
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[[That used to be the way one switched between the two]]
Correction: that is and long has been how one changes a Logos installation into a near mimic of a Verbum installation... one that has Help cards, unless something's changed recently.
Re: Near mimic: What are the differences between a "pure Verbum" Installation and a Logos installation with "Verbum set to Yes"]]
[[Next post: What are the differences between a "pure Logos" Installation and a Verbum installation with "Verbum set to No"?]]
[[Post after that one: Does "Verbum set to" change any thing from the "pure" Installation to any thing less when one changes it back to what ever the "pure" Installation was when it was a "pure" Installation?]]
[[What I really meant to ask was] We have two PCs. My wife never uses Logos nor Verbum. I have installed Logos on mine and Verbum on hers [both for my use only] Have I upset anything by using the "Verbum set to" command that does not get un-upset when I go back to the other state?
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Why do we need 2 separate products? I genuinely do not understand.
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Why do we need 2 separate products? I genuinely do not understand.
Who are you asking this question of??
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Why do we need 2 separate products? I genuinely do not understand.
Ok, Verbum, it is. It'll be good for Logosians to figure out why there's so many Esdras.
More seriously, Verbum should be leading the way on how to do religion with software. Logos is hopelessly a stack and rack proposition (list, search, tag, and tree it).
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Why do we need 2 separate products? I genuinely do not understand.
Who are you asking this question of??
It was a genuine question meant to add to this thread, not hack it. It was meant I suppose for FL or for anyone who can give insight. I wonder if the need for two separate products is still necessary.
MJ has a legitimate question. And I hope it gets addressed by FL.
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Why do we need 2 separate products? I genuinely do not understand.
There are some significant differences in the ways that some users approach Bible and Historical studies. Logos was originally created for a "broadly evangelical" (protestant) community. For example, they expect 66 books in the canon and do not want mariological resources. I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up. The same is true with the "on this day in history" feature.
A Venn diagram would show much overlap between the two, but where they DON'T overlap, there can be significant controversy. There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well.
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I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up.
As a Lutheran, I have certainly run into a few Roman Catholics who react strongly against anything with the names of Luther or Calvin. But I have run into many Roman Catholics who actually quite value Luther's Devotional writings, and have told us Lutherans how they are rooted in Medieval monasticism. They may disagree with him on some points - especially in his Polemical writings, but all in all, I think Roman Catholics appreciate and respect Luther's devotional writings FAR more than the typical American Evangelical Protestant respects, for example, Thomas Aquinas' devotional writings - even when Luther is gently critiquing some Roman Catholic practices, eg. Luther's work on the Magnificat.
None of this is to say that they would typically have Luther as a first choice - or that there is no difference between Luther's thought and Roman Catholicism. But one of the flowers of Vatican 2 has been an recognition that even if they say Luther was a off-pitch, and even if you say that he made inappropriate choices over the whole of Catholicism, his thought is still anchored in Catholicism.
None of this is to say that you were wrong when you said "There are some significant differences in the ways that some users approach Bible and Historical Studies." You are indeed right on that. It just gets more complicated, and you could have picked a better example. And what I read MJ as saying in her original post is that Logos/Verbum development lately seems to have been dominated by features that would be more useful for the typical American Evangelical user, and that that Verbum development has lagged behind this, with too many features only half-way implemented.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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There are some significant differences
I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product. But now? We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages. Why can't Verbum be another denominational package? I buy Verbum products and it incorporates into Logos. If you buy Logos products, it incorporates into Verbum. I have a birthday and get a Verbum birthday credit. Usually I get a Logos credit. To me, it is confusing...just like introducing Noet (now obsolete) was confusing. And it causes the problem MJ brings up. The fact is, I would like to have the Catholic topic index...and lo and behold...in Logos, I have it! Why do Verbum customers not have links to FL Logos groups?
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There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well.
Mark me down as a 'Third Circleist'!
I use Logos but resent the fact that I would need to download a whole new library to get the facilities that others have should I find a need for them.
We can prioritise our bible translation why can't we prioritise our canon?
Why can't we, at least in our software, turn saints and/or martyrs on and off as required?
(Who knows if one can actually turn saints and/or martyrs off?)
Unifying Verbum and Logos should be an aspiration not least because it encourages unity. I seem to remember that somebody else thought unity a good idea.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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There would also be a third circle in that Venn diagram of those who are one side or the other but DO want the material from the other side as well.
Mark me down as a 'Third Circleist'!
I use Logos but resent the fact that I would need to download a whole new library to get the facilities that others have should I find a need for them.
We can prioritise our bible translation why can't we prioritise our canon?
Why can't we, at least in our software, turn saints and/or martyrs on and off as required?
(Who knows if one can actually turn saints and/or martyrs off?)
Unifying Verbum and Logos should be an aspiration not least because it encourages unity. I seem to remember that somebody else thought unity a good idea.
I agree with all of this, but there are significant numbers of users who would not.
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There are some significant differences
I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product. But now? We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages. Why can't Verbum be another denominational package? I buy Verbum products and it incorporates into Logos. If you buy Logos products, it incorporates into Verbum. I have a birthday and get a Verbum birthday credit. Usually I get a Logos credit. To me, it is confusing...just like introducing Noet (now obsolete) was confusing. And it causes the problem MJ brings up. The fact is, I would like to have the Catholic topic index...and lo and behold...in Logos, I have it! Why do Verbum customers not have links to FL Logos groups?
The libraries are one thing... the software functionality is quite another. I think Mike‘s suggestion is good... You could keep the two diverse apps which would have different default settings, but have the ability to turn on the other. I < think > that would make most happy.
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I agree with all of this, but there are significant numbers of users who would not.
I doubt most care to share ... FL seems to see the problem as a market-issue and internally re-badging. They never mentally recovered from the pre-Christmas-Eve masacre.
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There are some significant differences
I understand all that, and I am sure that was the original idea behind a second product. But now? We have various packages...reformed packages, baptist packages, Orthodox packages, academic packages. Why can't Verbum be another denominational package?I will give you an answer that will be simple and true but likely unsatisfying to you. It will, at least, have the advantage of abstracting away from Verbum's special features, present or future.
- Verbum is targeted at Catholics.
- Most Catholics who might buy Verbum would never buy non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources. Almost no Catholics in a position to recommend Verbum to other Catholics--parish priests, diocesan bishops, theology professors, etc.--would ever publicly or widely endorse non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources, even if they themselves were personally using them. In addition, most relevant Catholic organizations, including publishers and post-secondary institutions, are unlikely to support/work with non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource providers.
- If Verbum were to be replaced by (e.g.) "Logos 10 Catholic" packages, products, and marketing, for all relevant intents and purposes, from a Catholic perspective, this would be non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource, because Faithlife the company and Logos the brand are non-Catholic.
Tl;dr: Merging Verbum into Logos would lose Faithlife most of its present and potential future Catholic customers, product endorsers, and partner organizations.
Why my preceding answer is true is much more complicated and difficult to properly understand from a non-Catholic perspective than is that answer, and the anecdotal counter-examples to 2. that I'm sure could be provided would be, as they say,' exceptions that prove the rule'.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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I am sure that there are many Catholics who would prefer not to have devotionals by Luther and Calvin pop up.
As a Lutheran, I have certainly run into a few Roman Catholics who react strongly against anything with the names of Luther or Calvin. But[....]
Relevant resource from Faithlife here: Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise
Here is an excerpt from the (Catholic) author's introduction:
Lastly, the reader may wonder (in all fairness) about my own personal opinion (as a committed orthodox Catholic, and Catholic apologist) of Martin Luther. I’m happy to comply with such a desire. I disagree with the man’s theology (that is, where he departs from Catholic orthodoxy) and some of the ways in which he went about things. But I do not regard Luther (like many Catholic biographers and critics throughout history) as an essentially “evil” or “bad” man. I don’t deny his good intentions and sincerity at all (though I often question his wisdom and foresight, as will be evident).
If that sounds interesting to you, the book is not expensive. If not, carry on!
I actually admire Martin Luther in many ways. I love his passion and boldness and bravery in standing up for what he believed. I always admire people who do that, unless the stand they take is unquestionably evil. One can respect such a person without necessarily agreeing with the specific cause or belief that he or she espouses. One can be wrong for the right reasons, and right for the wrong reasons.
I’ve written extensively about Martin Luther, and maintain perhaps the largest web page on the Internet devoted to Luther and Lutheranism, from a Catholic perspective. It may surprise some to learn that among these many papers (written over the past seventeen years) are about twenty, as of writing [2008], where I defend Luther against myths and bum raps, cite him in agreement, or take a fairly neutral stance towards his opinion.In one fictional, Plato-inspired dialogue I even portrayed Martin Luther quite positively (and downright affectionately), as a sort of (saved) “wise old man”. I’ve even—on occasion—received unsolicited letters of commendation from Lutheran pastors for such efforts.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Most Catholics who might buy Verbum would never buy non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources. Almost no Catholics in a position to recommend Verbum to other Catholics--parish priests, diocesan bishops, theology professors, etc.--would ever publicly or widely endorse non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resources, even if they themselves were personally using them. In addition, most relevant Catholic organizations, including publishers and post-secondary institutions, are unlikely to support/work with non-Catholic Bible/theology study software/resource providers.
So much for ecumenicalism.
I still support MJ's op
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My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous for Faithlife to have two versions of the software to maintain -- increased costs make that ridiculous. However, it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.
What I don't like is being second fiddle.Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So much for ecumenicalism.
I still support MJ's op
Nothing non-ecumenical about it. It stands to reason that people want to use the software according to their beliefs. As such, they probably wouldn’t invest in books outside of them. So, it does them a bit of a disservice to be given less for their money.
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Verbum Max0 -
What I don't like is being second fiddle.Well somebody is stomping their feet now. FWIW I respect your right to raise this issue and put your case forward.
I just wonder if these means now you understand what is feels like, are you going to be less judgemental of those who express the same sort of feelings about different issues with FL ? Or are you going to tell them it’s FL’s product and they can do what they like with it and leading on from that charge what they like?
But as I said I support your right to call it out. I just hope it changes the way you respond to others in the future who feel like they are playing second fiddle over the issues that are important to them. All customers deserve it be able to express the highs and lows of their experience with FL.0 -
I just wonder if these means now you understand what is feels like, are you going to be less judgemental of those who express the same sort of feelings about different issues with FL ? Or are you going to tell them it’s FL’s product and they can do what they like with it and leading on from that charge what they like?
[:D] I don't fall for the "Have you quit hitting your wife" question form
BTW - people who know me in person, know that people naturally confide in me (and my son) precisely because we are not judgmental. I can provide humorous stories starting with the dorm peer counselor waking my roommate and I at 3 in the morning because she needed someone to talk to ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So much for ecumenicalism.
I think, its also the other way round: FL/Logos would loose evangelical customers, if a 'united' logos/verbum project would have some catholic touch. So it may be a reasonable decision to have two distict marketing enviroments.
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So much for ecumenicalism.
It's really not a matter of ecumenism. Or, if it is, it's a matter of accurately recognizing that there are very deep and very important differences between the Catholic faith and (e.g.) evangelical Protestantism.
As I noted in the post you are responding to, it is a complicated matter, but a lot of it is Catholics who have the care of souls not wanting to recommend books and related resources that have very different understandings of the Gospel than they have to Catholics who know very little about the Catholic faith, and most Catholics who are interested in learning more about their own faith and related matters already knowing (or soon learning) that non-Catholic Christians see things very differently in many respects. (As a former Protestant, I also know very well that most Protestant ministers and other persons of influence would never think of directing Protestants who don't know a lot about their own faith to Catholic Bible/theology resources.)
Once Catholics know their faith well, or while they are in environments where they have knowledgeable Catholic teaches/guides, such as graduate schools and seminaries, they will often start intentionally making more use of non-Catholic resources, especially ones recommended by Catholics they know and trust. (Two examples of such resources would be William Barclay's commentary set, long recommended by the late Abp. Fulton J. Sheen, and the Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, recommended by Scott Hahn and others.)
So much for ecumenicalism.
I think, its also the other way round: FL/Logos would loose evangelical customers, if a 'united' logos/verbum project would have some catholic touch. So it may be a reasonable decision to have two distict marketing enviroments.
I think you're probably right. Faithlife already takes some criticism on the forums when evangelicals (and others) find deuterocanonical books in their Bible searches or see a whole bunch of Catholic books for sale on Logos.com when all they want are Protestant ones.
it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.
What I don't like is being second fiddle.I substantially agree, although I don't presently care very much about whether there are two products or three.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Relevant resource from Faithlife here: Martin Luther: Catholic Critical Analysis and Praise
Thank you for the recommendation.I do hope that what I said about Roman Catholics and Luther was at least recognizable to you Roman Catholics.
But while I do value Roman Catholic contributions to Luther Studies - and expect to read more of it in my life, I am much more interested in trying to get a handle on current Roman Catholic theology in general. For better or worse, Luther was educated in Nominalism - and the ideas he criticized were those of his teachers and how those teachers read figures like Aquinas - and this has not been the dominant self-understanding of Rome for centuries. And so after some time with various Fathers, I am more interested in the survey you recommended earlier - Tracey Rowland's Catholic Theology, so I can better treat Rome with the respect of being serious theologians - a respect many Roman Catholics give to Luther.
And as for the Logos v. Verbum topic... I know enough about software development that if Faithlife wants to be able to successfully manage everything, they need to have a great deal of shared code between the two. And obviously Roman Catholics are a large enough of a potential market to justify special library packages - and have taught enough in various (Lutheran) parishes to understand the need for base packages that are compatible with your theology. I understand that different groups read the bible differently - and so would prioritize different features.
That said, it has seemed odd to me that Verbum is out on its own, and the Eastern Orthodox packages are part of Logos itself. But even as a Lutheran, I have seen enough American Anti-catholicism so that I can see more than a bit of wisdom for Faithlife to have different brandings. As much as I want to talk across the fence, good fences do sometimes make good neighbors.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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I do hope that what I said about Roman Catholics and Luther was at least recognizable to you Roman Catholics.
It is to me (although I disfavour the term "Roman Catholic").
For better or worse, Luther was educated in Nominalism - and the ideas he criticized were those of his teachers and how those teachers read figures like Aquinas - and this has not been the dominant self-understanding of Rome for centuries.
Nominalism has never been the dominant self-understanding of Rome as such, although nominalism (thank you, Ockham) was quite popular for a time, during which Luther was educated.
And so after some time with various Fathers, I am more interested in the survey you recommended earlier - Tracey Rowland's Catholic Theology, so I can better treat Rome with the respect of being serious theologians - a respect many Roman Catholics give to Luther.
[Y]
That said, it has seemed odd to me that Verbum is out on its own, and the Eastern Orthodox packages are part of Logos itself.
I think that if there were a lot more English-speaking Orthodox Christians, they would both expect and have their own third brand. But I am much less qualified to speak for them on this point than I am for Catholics, or even Protestants.
As much as I want to talk across the fence, good fences do sometimes make good neighbors.
Indeed. And one can buy most of the Protestant Bile/theology stuff Faithlife offers on Verbum.com and most of the Catholic stuff it offers on Logos.com, so I think that works.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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My personal opinion is that it is ridiculous for Faithlife to have two versions of the software to maintain -- increased costs make that ridiculous. However, it is reasonable for Faithlife to market the same code as three products - Evangelical - Catholic - and academic. Evangelical has one set of defaults priorities, canon, reading plans, guide sections and is marketed as Logos; Catholic has a different set and is marketed as Verbum; Academic/Ecumenical has everything and allows the user to set source of priorities and is marketed as Faithlife Academic. One software package = lower maintenance and development cost; marketing options keeps the easily irritated on both side blissfully ignorant.
What I don't like is being second fiddle.I think a trefold software like that could be a good idea! I'd like to have the wider canon in ressources and functions (that's why I bought packages from the Verbum line of Academics), but don't really need that much popes and saints [:D]
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I remember having a negative reaction to the creation of Verbum--both the discrimination and the chasm bugged me--but I do get the reason for it. There are significant differences, not to mention plenty of historical animosity. I've gotten to the place where I accept the current situation and am fine with it.
However, I do have a question. Is there anything that prevents a person from dl'ing and running both versions on the same system? If the answer is no, is there a real problem? I run L3 and L5 or 6 on my older computer simultaneously, and find that there are certain benefits from having two apps running together. Yes, I know they are genetically different programs. Still, is that not an option with Verbum and Logos? If it is, I assume it's because they are so similar to each other...which (if so) makes me wonder why such similarity isn't even more similar (if you get my drift).
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